patrick.net

I have a feeling of doom that is coming over me with all the negative atmosphere we are living in...go for it.

As an American expat who is a permanent resident of New Zealand I would highly recommend it here. It is probably the best place on earth to raise kids. However be prepared for about 50% lower salary and about a 50% higher cost of living. Lifestyle choices would have to be made. Immigration is very tough. There were 20,000 people who immigrated to NZ last year which was a record. If you are over 55 forget it, you won't get residency.

Considering that the world is in a financial crisis, is there anywhere you can go to get away?

I love the idea of moving overseas!!

You will have to decide whether or not it is worth it to you to you to give up American citizenship. To do this you would have to first take citizenship somewhere else, then start the legal process at the local US embassy.

I have been thinking about gaining a German or UK citizenship as I have family connections in both places, then moving to Latin America. The benefit of this arrangement is that you have a first world governemnt on your side if something horrible happens, AND you have relative tax freedom. If you are moving to a place with lower taxes, the US govt will attempt to own a portion of your taxes for the next 10 years. That's right, we are all indentured servants to our grand 'ol US of A government. I am not sure if this could really be considered legal if you fought it in international court (SLAVERY IS SUPPOSEDLY ILLEGAL, right?), but with all the secret prisons, and lack of civil liberties our new breed of government is forcing upon us, I wouldn't fuck with uncle Sam.

Find yourself a great international business lawyer. They deal with all of these issues constantly. I have been told that there is HUGE demand for US citizens to get the fuck out of dodge!

The USA is one of maybe 2 countries in the world that continues to tax income derived in foreign lands. We are a people for the the governement instead of a government for the people. Very sad...

Yes, contacting a lawyer is a very good idea as we have so many questions:

What are the advantages/disadvantages of giving up US citizenship? Do we have to? Dual citizenship? Are we walking away from the combined 40 years of contributing to Social Security? What does it all mean: green card, working visa, etc.

Yeah, we have a lot to figure out before going for it.

As for a lower standard of living elsewhere, what do you guys think it's going to be like in the USA in 10-20 years? What do we have to show for all the taxes we pay in the US?

bob2356, I understand that NZ took part in this credit/housing bubble. How is the government dealing with it?
Yes, the age is a concern as I'm 37 and spouse is 41 but maybe we can average our 3y.o. and 8 month old in the equation?!?

Canada is a great country. Its social programs are backed by its natural resources, and its people are nice. Weather is not as bad as you think.

It may not be a place to get rich, but if you want a nice place for your family and if you are fine with being in the middle class, you should seriously consider Canada.

I never wanted to be rich, just comfortable. British Columbia is on our radar. One of my concerns is the climate. I moved from Iowa to Portland 15 years ago partly due to wanting to escape the god-awful summers and winters. BC, Canada and parts of NZ meet the climate criteria.

Vancouver has an excellent climate.

http://www.bcpassport.com/vancouver-vital-information/vancouver-climate-tempurature.aspx

If you want to be comfortable you cannot go wrong with Canada. Remember, you want to be in a place with good natural resources, especially water and energy.

Which parts of NZ are you thinking about?

I agree--Canada, especially BC is a beautiful place. And the coastal climate is relatively mild. That said--it's a departure from California weather, and the winter darkness takes getting use to. I'm more concerned about Canada's relation to the US economy. During the housing boom, Canada's lumber industry did very well but that business has gone the way of the bust. I'd have to feel pretty confident of their economy to move there. If the US economy is in dire straights--will Canada do much better?

On the other side of the world, Australia and NZ appear to have a less volatile financial situation. Friends in Australia suggest I move there, but that's a huge leap which bears careful research. I think California's economy is saddled with budgetary fiascoes and serious cost of living issues, so I'll consider any better diversified economy than the SFBA. Even US states with lower costs seem a far better bet at recovery than California.

If the US economy is in dire straights–will Canada do much better?

Not much, but they have universal health care.

If the US economy goes down the drain it is hard to escape. The world is getting more connected every day.

If financial volatility is what you worry about you can just stay here. US is the 800-pound gorilla in the room.

But if you are concerned about cost of living issues, you really want a country with good social programs that are backed by real wealth, namely natural resources.

Where are we looking? SE Australia and just about everywhere in New Zealand except the extreme north and extreme south.

Just look at this! http://www.tourism.net.nz/new-zealand/about-new-zealand/weather-and-climate.html#weathermap

Mind you I live in Portland, Oregon and just love our temperate climate. Not a fan of the '4 seasons' though sure don't mind driving a few hours to experience it for a for a few days as I still love to X-country ski and bask in the sun as long as there is an ocean to cool off in;O)

I like Rotorua. I was there when I was a small child and I can still remember the nice feelings.

I would assume that coastal BC, being next to the ocean, is more temperate than Portland.

BC seems to be at the top of the list as I still have family that I'd like to see and most of them live in the Seattle area. And Vancouver weather is nearly identical to Portland. We'll see what the Olympics do to the city, though. It's already rather expensive. But like I tell some friends, I'd rather squeeze my family into a small apartment in Portland than live in 2,000 square feet in Sioux City, Iowa.

Oh, I will take any leads in New Zealand. Thanks for the Rotorua thought. We hope to spend a good month there in the next year or so. We'll be renters for a while as we learn about the area. I am really amazed how folks can buy a house before relocating to a new area. I'd say it took me a good 3 years to get a good idea of where I'd like to settle in Portland.

Yeah, Vancouver is still very expensive. Even a small 2/2 condo can easily cost $600K+. Hopefully sanity will return after the Olympics.

Vancouver should be quite a bit cooler in the summer than Portland. Many homes do not even have AC.

It can be said that coastal BC is one of the prettiest places on earth. It is less than 3 hours to Seattle by car and it has direct flights to NZ (Seasonal), believe it or not.

NZ can be quite foggy, beware.

I'm thinking job market is going to be a big factor. Heck, I almost applied for a job in Australia though it was in Perth, not exactly my dream location. Would have paid for my flight plus some housing short term. I was eye-ing my living room and almost took pictures to post on Craigslist to start selling stuff...of, course, I gotta get our visas in line, etc. Oh, and maybe tell the extended family...heck this doesn't have to be permanent, maybe a few years and reassess from there.

NZ is still in the middle of a major housing bubble. Everyone wants to be the next real estate mogul. Everyone keeps telling me how it is different here. The usual arguments, no more land (in a very sparsely populated country), prices will continue to go up, great investment, etc., etc. ,etc.. Cost of renting is a lot less than buying for now. To add insult to injury, the way overpriced houses in NZ are usually very poorly constructed.

East coasts are warmer, sunnier, and much drier than than the west coasts. The further north the warmer. I live on the Northeast coast of the north island and have pretty much the same weather as southern California. North island central plateau as in Taupo and Rotorua is very mixed changeable weather. Skiing sucks on the north island by the way. Be aware that central heat and insulation are rare in NZ especially on the north island. Spending the winter cold and damp is the norm.

I have not seen a foggy day in NZ yet. Maybe on the west coast. Snow down to the coast level is almost unheard of except the very tip of the southern island once or twice a year.

bob2356, thanks for all the info. Did you raise kids in NZ? One of my big concerns with our current living situation is the rising costs of college/university in the US. Currently grads are leaving school with a lot of debt. Is college affordable for the average family in NZ?

Cold and damp...sounds like Portland today. Yeah, sounds like construction of homes is an issue. Is new construction any better?

From trying to read the climate and weather maps for NZ there appears to be a lot of microclimates. Head a few hours in either direction and it changes significantly due to elevation and proximity to the ocean.

You are right Peter P, Portland is on average 4-5 degrees F warmer throughout the year. I was thinking 'temperate' in the general sense of the term, ie not heavy snow in winter or extreme heat and humidity in summer. Though Portland had a record 10 days in a row of temps over 90 this summer, lots of us were wishing we had AC!

Yeah go to Australia....It is a heaven for racists....Another perfectly fine country usurped from natives by technologically advanced but culturally uncivilized brits....

Another perfectly fine country usurped from natives by technologically advanced but culturally uncivilized brits….

Unless you are one of the natives, why does that bother you?

The British is far from being culturally uncivilized. Just go have cream tea and you will appreciate the culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_tea

Peter P says

Another perfectly fine country usurped from natives by technologically advanced but culturally uncivilized brits….
Unless you are one of the natives, why does that bother you?
The British is far from being culturally uncivilized. Just go have cream tea and you will appreciate the culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_tea

Nice thinking dude ...Yeah I am one of the natives...And even if I were not ...As a concerned citizen of the world it will bother me. I do not like to survive on the ashes of other cultures and people. Regarding tea ..Yeah they got it from India...we are still paying the price of their adventures ..not to mention of their divide and rule policy and assisting in the creation of "pakfuckingstan"....which as you know now is a pain for rest of the world.

I lived in the Portland area and the Oregon coast for years. I saw plenty of heavy snow in Portland when I was back in December (ok it was a fluke but I was without power for 8 days). I am actually selling my last remaining property (a forest service cabin in zig zag) in Oregon this week. You simply can't compare comfort levels between NZ houses and American houses. It's just not even close. Many Kiwis's spend their winters literally huddled around a wood burning stove dressed in heavy sweaters. Especially in our area which has a very mild climate. The colder area's have somewhat better heat and insulation . New construction rules are finally starting to require insulation and double glazing at least. I don't want to sound overly pessimistic but for for many americans it would be an a really rude surprise. On the plus side, for 9 months a year the weather where I am is just glorious.

Yes there are tons of micro climates but almost everyone lives on the coast so it doesn't matter much. Even the areas away from the coast are way below snowline. You actually have to drive up thousands of feet of elevation to ski. Usually on some really really dicey roads. Because of this, other than a couple mountain passes, NZ has pretty much zero snow removal equipment. Like Portland, if it snows then you wait a couple days for it to melt.

I have a 1 year old and a 6 year old so University is a ways away. Universities in NZ seem to average about 4,000-6,000 for tuition per year. Most of the Universities are quoting around 20,000 per year total expenses. I am still a resident of Texas and University of Texas Pan Am was a little over $100 per credit last time I looked about 5 years ago. So NZ offers no great advantage compared to some of the state university systems even with the exchange rate.

Did a travelogue of our initial impressions when we first arrived.
http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog/presseyr/nz2007/tpod.html

Nice thinking dude …Yeah I am one of the natives…And even if I were not …As a concerned citizen of the world it will bother me.

I am sorry about that, but conquest is really part of humanity. Even Nature is really a constant battle among various interests.

You do not need to be upset, technology will only quicken the pace of our downfall. Ultimately, Nature is fair.

It is pointless to be bothered by Human Nature. It has to run its course and there is nothing you can do about that.

You simply can’t compare comfort levels between NZ houses and American houses.

American houses are really some of the most comfortable around, in terms of size and amenities. In very few places can a middle-class family live in a house with more bathrooms than bedrooms. Perhaps this is the direct result of the government/banking/homebuilding complex?

Outside of America, I think it is hard to find a comparable housing lifestyle anywhere in the world except perhaps in parts of Canada. (...unless you are super rich)

If you're seriously considering living in Canada, I recommend spending time there and getting to know Canadians. :-)
I spent October '08 in BC, specifically Vancouver Island. There I saw a few parallels to California--crazy overbuilding of retail space and a lot of RE speculation, specifically in vacation properties. I found people generally very friendly, but my friends there joke that Vancouver city is much less so. Other things I picked up on: the media seems to blame many domestic problems as originating south (ie the US). I did not get that, since we don't go on about Canada. On the surface, Canada feels a lot like US culture, but I saw more differences as I spent time there and got to know people. What's critical here is that you feel welcome, despite your ethnic/cultural differences. On that note, cities like Victoria or Vancouver are more cosmopolitan and tolerant. The smaller logging/fishing towns are economically depressed and more suspicious of "outsiders".

From what I know of my friends, the working culture seems a bit more hierarchical, structured, and inflexible than SFBA "startups"--maybe more "British" in that regard. I'm not sure how my informal, lateral style of consulting would work there. My last boss was a Brit, and I found his need for formality time-consuming and counter-productive; I judge there's some of that in Canada from speaking to friends. Naturally it's pointless to stereotype...but I'm certain working in Canada would take getting used to. As it would in Australia, for different reasons because Canadians and Australians strike me as quite different. Of course, everyone will make their own conclusions based on their experiences.

@commonman2003

Nice thinking dude …Yeah I am one of the natives…And even if I were not …As a concerned citizen of the world it will bother me. I do not like to survive on the ashes of other cultures and people. Regarding tea ..Yeah they got it from India…we are still paying the price of their adventures ..not to mention of their divide and rule policy and assisting in the creation of “pakfuckingstan”….which as you know now is a pain for rest of the world.

Pakistani's were displaced from India because they were muslim....Christians and Muslims cannot coexist because they have a Crip vs. Blood mentality when it comes to each others religions. The church was used to divide the people and to assist in assimilating the Indian community into British culture. This was also done with the Africans brought to America, some of which have not recouped from the mental effects of slavery. Similarily, some Pakistani's and Indians are slaves to their own mentalities as well...however, I would say that most are good people that would benefit from a strong economy.

You folks might want to read Guns, Germs & Steel...if you have not already.

How was the church (which church are you talking about anyway, christianity isn't particularly monolithic) involved in the slave trade to America? Not that the catholic church doesn't have many things to answer for in history, but it's the first time I heard of them being involved in slave trading.

I would love to go to Malaysia, but of course I have a man's perspective of it.
My wife kids have not seen the county.

While I was there I met an Epait that brought his wife and child over, they had been there two years already, by time I went to the country. He came over fell in love with the country, and thought I bet the wifie will love this place too. She did not, although she endured for two years, one day she packed up the kid and some clothes and hopped on a plane back to the states while he was at work.

I was his drinking and commiseration buddy he was in bad shape. But his misfortune made me realize what we as men see as very cool and appealing about Malaysia most women would find depressing.

Women there aren't very out going publicly.

@BOB @Commonman2003

Four major religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism originated in India, while Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam arrived in the first millennium CE and shaped the region's diverse culture. Gradually annexed by the British East India Company from the early eighteenth century and colonised by the United Kingdom from the mid-nineteenth century, India became an independent nation in 1947 after a struggle for independence that was marked by widespread non-violent resistance. In past, governments use the church to influence the masses...I dont have the specific churches but know this method well from various readings. In this instance whereby India was divided into 2, whereby India remained Hindu, Christian and Pakistan fielded all the Muslim peoples. The church was used as a tool to assimilate, divide and conquer the people.

I dont necessarily believe this was a Christian movement, so when I refer to the "Church" I was referring to the Hindu Church or body of congregates. In regards to Christianity, it is a purely anglo-german creation that when placed upon indigenous peoples has been used to strip them of their previous cultures. Some call it divide and conquer, I prefer to look at it as a part of the assimilation of a people. The opposite of such would be genocide which is often carried out by the military. So, if we look at it from this perspective we have the 1 option to use the church and the other to use the military. In Iraq, Afghanistan, The US has half-heartedly chosen to use the Military as the tool to squash the local rebellsions...partly to prevent any atrocities from occuring. If a full force were used, sadly and regretfully we would see a result of genocide take place in Iraq, Afghanistan similarly to what has been occuring in Darfur, Jewish holocaust and the Armenian Genocide. The reason I am going into detail on the military option is that I want for you to see that the use of the Church is a must gentler, kinder option for use when invading another country. Surely, the US could demolish these countries however, it would result in the unnecessary and immoral loss of lives. Similar to India, Iraq may wind up split into 3 countries as was done with only because there are 3 different sects of Islamic peoples in the territories. In this instance, the Muslim mosque is determining the divide of the country.

4X

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Pat Buchanan provided a good example of how assimilation works in one of his interviews. In 1992, Pat Buchanan said:

“ If we had to take a million immigrants in, say Zulus, next year, or Englishmen, and put them in Virginia, what group would be easier to assimilate and would cause less problems for the people of Virginia?

Now, should we want to assimilate the Zulus we simply would need the Catholic or Protestant Churches to work their magic. It didnt work with African Americans or Native Americans because the jobs were not there so what resulted was high crime rates and drug abuses within those communities. In his book State of Emergency, Buchanan praises the anti-immigration positions of black leaders like Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, and W. E. B. Du Bois. He has especially praised Washington's pleas with industrialists to hire Blacks instead of immigrants.

He is quoted:

“ America did not listen [to Booker T. Washington's concerns]. Millions of jobs in burgeoning industries went to immigrants who poured into the United States between 1890 and 1920. These men and women enriched our country. But they also moved ahead of and shouldered aside black men and women whose families had been here for generations and even centuries. Not until immigration had been dramatically cut in the Coolidge era, and World War II created an all-consuming demand for industrial workers, were black Americans brought by the hundreds of thousands north to the manufacturing cities of America. And when they were, a Black middle class was created upon which the civil rights movement was built. When immigration stopped, Black America advanced, as Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, and A. Philip Randolph said it would "

I left Germany in early 2008 and moved to the states. Even after the financial crisis and seeing all the good and bad here I would do it again.
Certainly there are pros and cons for every country. Working in IT and bringing the right skills to the table has helped to live the American Dream for my wife and I. She is American and we lived in Germany for a year but she preferred the states.

best thing you can do is travel to these places and see. I have relatives in Australia, they have a housing bubble there right now.

If you want family values move to a small town in some less populated state. Major metropolitan areas are not good for that.

If you want good financial future, I don't have a crystal ball. But healthcare sounds like a good start. It's the only occupation that cannot be outsourced.

Australia has a high standard of living. New Zealand is very pretty but I have not seen it. I have been to Oz twice and liked what I saw.
I have lived in England and Mexico, and have been back to Mexico a lot and am bilingual. I don't think of living in England as any option.
I have been to Quebec and New Brunswick Canada a bunch in the summer months, and I liked it up there in the *summer*.
I liked some aspects of latin American life, however, it's not a good option for all kinds of reasons. I will spend time there diving, sailing, surfing, etc. someday probably in the future.
Australia would be a fun place to live in my opinion, Canada just is too cold in the winter all over I think.
If I had a family and was able to relocate work, I would go to New Hampshire and see what jobs were available. For families the state is very good. It's cold but also pretty and not nearly as lousy winters as places in NYState. Maine I thought was too cold and remote. NH is really not such a great distance from Boston, etc.
Aspects of the Latin culture are sometimes fun but if I were 1. a woman 2. had children, I would not touch it with a ten foot pole.

depends on how you earn a living, or if you even need to. If you are wealthy enough then you will live on the coast of Califonrnia. Period. If you need to earn a living then your choices are limited to places that can support your trade. If you have no responsibilities, and can be a nomadic, and your only need is enough money for a little food and your Plan B is moving back home to mom and dad, then sure, you should go try out some other land.

Immigaration without need is just vacation.