patrick.net

Gummint also created the first web server at CERN and the first web browser at UIUC. These are salutory examples, since the free market (Peace be upon it) of the time was busy futzing around with walled gardens and subscription services.

Ad Hom's anti-government rants when it comes to medicine are completely baseless since I can rattle off a dozen countries with better healtcare for more people than the US's quasi-public system provides.

Now, there are issues involved with scaling up socialized systems so that they serve all 300M of us here in the US.

But the Eurosocialist approach is basically ensuring access to that which is necessary to become and remain a productive member of society. This is possible with high(er) taxes. As I've stated here numerous times, I don't fear high taxes since it's my thesis, which I basically cobbled from Georgists like Mason Gaffney, that all taxes come out of rents (and land values).

Double taxes, land values and rents would be halved. Win/win, as long as the government spending goes into wealth-accruing investments like public education, health, energy, water, internal security, national defense, and transportation.

Historically, free market fundamentalism fails due to the latifundialization of the lower classes on the model of the Irish estates of the 18~19th centuries. Wealth concentrates ever upwards. In a democratic society, trust busters may arrive and reset the system, as the Republican trust-busters did at the turn of the 20th century. Or you might have an enlightened despot like Bismarck or Hitler attempt to coopt the leftists by instituting the material parts of the leftist "social safety net" agenda.

There are critical flaws with Eurosocialism, namely making it too easy for people to check out of being productive members of society and coast on the safety net.

Speaking of which, I've got to go. Been fun, AH.

Troy says

There are critical flaws with Eurosocialism, namely making it too easy for people to check out of being productive members of society and coast on the safety net.

At least we agree on this.

Troy says

s long as the government spending goes into wealth-accruing investments like public education, health, energy, water, internal security, national defense, and transportation.

Thats a big IF. And when I look at public education the larger our budget has become the lower Americans have scored against international peers. When I look at health the more government has gotten involved the higher prices have soared. When I look at energy and environment I see higher prices and more pollution than ever before despite regulations and EPA. When I look at "internal security" I am appalled a the loss of freedom and see little improvement in actual security. When I look at "national defense" I see Americans fighting foreign wars, one of which bankrupted the Soviets. When I look at transportation I see gridlock traffic, government workers leaning on shovels and bridges collapsing.

Way to go federal government! Sure there are some "successes" we could cite, but most anything government can do, free market can do better. It is more efficient at allocating resources. What we need is a sound monetary system that will allow a free market to work properly. End the FED and we can start on the road to recovery.

AdHominem says

I see higher prices and more pollution than ever before despite regulations and EPA.

You see more pollution than ever before?? You need your eyes checked.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

I see higher prices and more pollution than ever before despite regulations and EPA.

You see more pollution than ever before?? You need your eyes checked.

You’re so right. That giant plastic mass in the middle of the pacific is getting smaller every decade. Our rivers and lakes are cleaner than ever before. Our drinking water has no contaminants like prescription drugs in it. Lake Tahoe is bluer than ever before. Wow, the epa is doing such a great job. But again this thread is about the fact there is no such thing as a free mammogram. Unless of course Ellie is performing it.

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

I see higher prices and more pollution than ever before despite regulations and EPA.

You see more pollution than ever before?? You need your eyes checked.

You’re so right. That giant plastic mass in the middle of the pacific is getting smaller every decade. Our rivers and lakes are cleaner than ever before. Our drinking water has no contaminants like prescription drugs in it. Lake Tahoe is bluer than ever before. Wow, the epa is doing such a great job. But again this thread is about the fact there is no such thing as a free mammogram. Unless of course Ellie is performing it.

I actually check my breasts for lumps often - and I have someone to help me in case I get tired. Sometimes it takes hours... He's a giver.
Sure, there's pollution now. But imagine how it might be without the EPA. Look at a list of environmental disasters, and the US is down the list of countries with disaster areas. Imagine what it would look like without the EPA.

EPA !!! lmao .... Mt. St. Helens ... or Penatubo ... or name-the-vocanic-explosion-of-choice ,,, will they be getting a visit from the EPA ?? lmao. More cubic tons of crap than all of the Otto engines ever made X 100,000,000. So, please, please, please .. do not suggest the EPS made any special changes. If ANYONE wanted cleaner air they would have not allowed all of the mexicans to come here. Many drive poor running cars that only pass smog illegally at their cusins shop, the population increase they have made requires more truck and rail and plane traffic, and they add to traffic congestion and that kills MPG. The EPA dreamed up cat converters are very bad. They made car exhaust poison with the gas additives and the cat converters.

The cars make less junk per gallon thanks entirly to fuel injection and better ignition. Both improvements are racecar based and were done for performance, not EPA.

by the way, for extra credit, 1) what does a cat converter have in it, 2) those balls rub against eachother and make dust, what does the dust of that stuff do to people/skin/lungs, 3) where do they put the used ones? Thanks EPA!! (R. Nadar too - that dork)

Bap33 says

If ANYONE wanted cleaner air they would have not allowed all of the mexicans to come here.

Do you have a bumpersticker that says "Racism Rules?"

no ... why? Do you have a bumpersticker that says "Borders? We no need no steeenking borders!!" lol

besides, what race is mexican? If you were born in Juares, Mx, then you too would be a mexican. Pretty simple. No need for race baiting, Ellie. Pretend I wrote "Canadians", and pretend we have a invasion problem from the north. That better? Geeze.

Did you have a nice CHRISTmas?

Bap33 says

Did you have a nice CHRISTmas?

Festivus was lovely, thank you. George was a little outta hand, but otherwise it was wonderful.

"they are real, and they are spectacular"
or
"Jerry, it moved. Is that "the sign"..?"
or
"The Big Salad"
or
"I was in the pool!!!"
or
"No Soup for You!!"
or .. the best ever ...
".... hmmm .... Mulva...?"

I mentioned the bisque.

Bap33 says

The cars make less junk per gallon thanks entirly to fuel injection and better ignition. Both improvements are racecar based and were done for performance, not EPA.

by the way, for extra credit, 1) what does a cat converter have in it, 2) those balls rub against eachother and make dust, what does the dust of that stuff do to people/skin/lungs, 3) where do they put the used ones? Thanks EPA!! (R. Nadar too - that dork)

Actually multipoint sefi fuel injection and electronic ignition did come about to meet EPA standards. There was no way to get enough control of fuel mixtures to meet the tightening standards with a carb. Car makers would have much preferred to stay with carbs which are simpler and a lot cheaper. Race cars of the mid 80's used carbs or mechanical injection.

Catalytic converters have a honeycomb of platinum in them, not loose balls. There is no dust and no reason they should not last the life of the car. That is the entire meaning of the word catalyst. The used ones are recycled. People actually steal them, they are worth money.

This past weekend I spoke with some visitors from London. Surprisingly they think we have the best health care in the world here in the USA. Imagine that!

They also spoke of how similar the US is to European systems when it comes to welfare. The harder you work, the more taxes you pay, the higher your housing, health care, and other expenses and costs are etc... but in England (and the USA I would add) if you just want to sit on your "dignity" all day long, you can live off someone else's dollar/sterling.

AdHominem says

This past weekend I spoke with some visitors from London. Surprisingly they think we have the best health care in the world here in the USA. Imagine that!

AdHominem says

The harder you work, the more taxes you pay, the higher your housing,

housing costs are taxes are something of a zero-sum thing.

AdHominem says

This past weekend I spoke with some visitors from London. Surprisingly they think we have the best health care in the world here in the USA. Imagine that!

Oh, well if one unnamed person thinks something, then it must be true. All the scientific studies and comparative analyses must be mistaken. I stand corrected.

AdHominem, you should live in Alabama. They have a regressive tax system, you'd love it...but you get what you pay for;O)

AdHominem says

This past weekend I spoke with some visitors from London. Surprisingly they think we have the best health care in the world here in the USA. Imagine that!

If you have the right health care insurance and the live in the right place US health care is terrific. Did you ask them how much they would be willing to pay for the greatest health care in the world, talk is cheap.

Bob,
#1) racecars of the 50's had fuel injection. Racecars of the 60's had multipoint direct head injection AND multi spark mags. Fuel injection on the street was performance based first (50's) and fuel econ and EPA was just part of betr performance. EPA cafe crap made no improvements in anything, ever.
#2) Dude, I'm sorry, you are correct about a cat. These brand new cats have a pretty little honeycomb of platnum. Feel free the handle as you see fit and breath deeply when you remove a used one. Do so on a pre-85 carbed car if you would too, please. Nobody steels the older stuff. The new cars run so clean the cat is just added because some idiot demands it.

anyways ... what was my point again?? Oh ya, the EPA and smog laws on cars is a friggin joke.

everyone that needs a doc, sees a doc, in America.

Bap33 says

everyone that needs a doc, sees a doc, in America.

This isn't true. Many people have health insurance and will never know what its like to be sick, in pain, acutely or chronically ill without treatment. No moola, no treatment. That's what healthcare reform is about. Free clinics can't possibly help all the people out there, Medicaid programs don't cover younger people (18-65) nor does Medicare. People die without treatment every day in America.

Some people on this forum don't accept this, and I guess never will unless they lose their coverage. I do hope that never happens. However, another way to learn about this issue would be to contact a local free clinic and ask how you can help out. Spend a day with people who don't have healthcare coverage and are willing to wait all day to see a doctor, even though they can't afford the medications the doc prescribes. Why not put your money where your mouth is and do some actual research on the issue that doesn't include a conservative, anti-Obama, anti-healthcare reform website? This issue goes far beyond politics, and all the name calling and whining won't change the fact that people die every day in America because they can't afford to see a doctor, or dentist. Even people with healthcare, such as Medicare Advantage plans (HMO's heavily subsidized by you & me), deny treatment & benefits to people on a daily basis.

So, why not leave the comfort of your home, go to a free clinic and volunteer? or a homeless shelter and listen to the stories of the people who've lost everything, including their healthcare? Why not go to the ER and listen to people's stories? How about this one? http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/dec/23/woman-sues-umc-over-babys-death/

Ability to pay is a huge issue when healthcare is for-profit and no one's watching out for the little guy. Will the bill be anything close to what we need? Who knows. But it's a step in the right direction - healthcare should never be optional.

if I have to pay to keep someone alive, I should get to have input on how they care for themselves. But, I do not think it is right to have input over anyone elses health coice, so do not make me pay for others.
Leftists will be made to control costs in some manner. And we all know it.

By the way, I should have prefaced my post. Any human in California that needs a doc, sees a doc. If you need special treatment or meds you simply commit a crime and the treatment and all meds are covered while incarcerated --- including sex change hormones and crap like that. So, you are not correct ellie, the full care of anyone who wants it can be had. Will they have to give up something? Sure. Isn't that more fair? THe care is still supported by taxpayers, but at least the reciever has to put up something too. So, now we have a way for all who need meds and procedures to be covered ... why change?

Bap33 says

So, now we have a way for all who need meds and procedures to be covered … why change?

Again--do you really believe what you post? There are thousands of sob stories about people who got dropped by their insurance company after they got sick, or were denied coverage because of a "pre-existing condition". These people don't get treatment, and they die. You really need to get out more.

And don't you understand how insurance works? You pay a premium each month whether you receive any medical care or not. If you are healthy, your money pays for others who are sick. Then if/when you get sick, their money pays for you. Your whole "my money pays for someone else" argument is just rubbish.

again - all people die. No amount of treatment fixes death. The pre-existing condition called life, requires all to die.

secondly, insurance is a gamble on the part of both parties involved. The carrier is in the business to make money, so they want to limit their exposure. The customer is trying to protect their assets by limiting their exposure to medical costs. Any and all situations are spelled out in the plan you pay for. Not all plans are the best, but you get what YOU pay for, and I'll get what I pay for.

If you do not earn any or enough money for insurance, you get access to the EXACT same care as I do (in California). ANd that care is paid for by wealth transfers from working people (taxed welfare "programs"). My money pays for someone else's care - period. How you can say otherwise is odd, to say the least.

I have a sob story too ... it's about an open border allowing the invasion of my land .... and welfare abuse ..... and my vote being turned over on Prop 187 that would have halted both of those issues. Why are you not worried about me and my wellbeing?

Bap33, I would love to see stats re: illegal immigants and health care $$$, is it as much as many scream about it?!? I am an RN and work in a huge hospital in a metro area with many Hispanics (construction, landscaping, farming) and I can tell you that 'illegals make up less than 1% of my patient load.

I can also tell you that Medicare patients make up at least 50% fo my patient load and it seems that Medicaid makes up another 25%...heck, we are way more than half way to socialized medicine given those numbers.

And it just floors me to think so many do NOT even realize that Medicare IS socialized medicine/government run.

Bap33 says

again - all people die. No amount of treatment fixes death. The pre-existing condition called life, requires all to die

Not sure what your point is here...

Bap33 says

I have a sob story too … it’s about an open border allowing the invasion of my land …. and welfare abuse ….. and my vote being turned over on Prop 187 that would have halted both of those issues. Why are you not worried about me and my wellbeing?

Why am I not worried that something you didn't want got voted into law? Are you kidding? Cry me a river... That's not exactly the same as someone being allowed to die because their insurance carrier finds a loophole to avoid honoring their contract.

Bap33 says

Any human in California that needs a doc, sees a doc. If you need special treatment or meds you simply commit a crime and the treatment and all meds are covered while incarcerated — including sex change hormones and crap like that. So, you are not correct ellie, the full care of anyone who wants it can be had.

Nope, you're wrong. There isn't care for everyone. You might think that there is, and might guess that there is, and in your anger over illegal immigrants insist that there is... but there isn't healthcare for everyone. It's been explained to you over & over, yet you continue to insist that the coverage is there. It's not. You don't know whereof you speak, you just insist that you do. Bap33 says

But, I do not think it is right to have input over anyone elses health coice, so do not make me pay for others.

You are already paying for others' "coices" through welfare programs, medicare payments, and your federal and local taxes. What you aren't paying for is healthcare treatment for people who need it and don't qualify for assistance (and there are many).

You are difficult to take seriously when you can't spell and have difficulty formulating coherent sentences through your anger. Perhaps you should discuss something about which you possess absolute knowledge, such as the root of your anger and how it encroaches upon your life in such a negative way.

tatupu, read my point about dieing after your last post. Everyone dies, not just unisured cancer people.
And what you should be worried about is something that I did VOTE for, as did the major majority of Cal voters and it was NOT made into law as it should have been. That should bother you too. Prop 187 would have made a big difference in the Cal financial situation, and I think it would have held the housing bubble down alot.

ellie, I'm not angry. I'm happy. My mispelling and bad grammer stand alone, and can not be blamed on some made-up anger issue that does not exist. I simply aint very good at written expression -- I accept that. Thanks for the support.
You mistake insurance for care. I say most insurance and ALL welfare-care systems are great for docs and pharms and bad for folks. If care is to be free, make the docs and pharms do it for free.

Nomo - folks that wont work aint supposed to eat. By the way, I do freely give, and everyone knows that us lowly conservatives out-give the high-and-mighty leftists, so hush. The mian difference is I give "freely", and I also render unto Ceaser. I never, ever, cheat on my taxes and file every year since I was 14. Not one time did I miss or cheat. Can you say that Nomo? I would guess you can, as you seem very noble. Most of Lord Barry's hand picked group can not say that. Neither can ACORN. Oh, well.

Bap33, I'm feeling left out. You respond to tatupu, ellie, and nomo, why not me:O(

well .. I skipped you because your response was really really really really lacking in reality. I understand you are not in California, so your opinion of the invasion is not the same as it is here, and in Arizona and NM. Also, I'm pretty sure you will not read the links I share and if you do, you will blame me for what they share. Anyways, here's a couple to 'splane the invasion and it's impact on California.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

http://www.theminorityreportblog.com/story/steve_foley/2009/07/02/illegal_aliens_health_care_reforms_dirty_little_secret

now, when you read these things and your anger overcomes your thought process, please take just a few seconds and google the sources they site and you will find them to be correct based on actual numbers of actual reports and studies.

Do you now agree that Prop 187 was a pivot point in California and America as a (w)hole?

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/12/26/170334.shtml

hey, here's one from Ore:

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2009/10/illegal_immigrants_burden_port.html

still disagree?

Bap33 says

tatupu, read my point about dieing after your last post. Everyone dies, not just unisured cancer people.

Sorry--I'm still missing your point. Are you trying to say that we shouldn't try to heal sick people? Because they are going to die anyway at some point?

Leigh says

Bap33, I’m feeling left out. You respond to tatupu, ellie, and nomo, why not me:O(

Bap33 says

well .. I skipped you because your response was really really really really lacking in reality

Leigh - what the hell could an RN possibly know about healthcare, health insurance, or basically anything? Anyone with a grin like that wearing a diaper on her head couldn't possibly understand...

Happy New Year!

miss ellie, knowing about apples and oranges was not the question. Why must you keep compairing them? Knowing how libs have allowed an invasion into the orange and apple bins .. that was the issue.

tatupu, no no, not my point at all. I know all docs in America take a hippo oath that says thay will only do good and will treat all who need them. I'm suggesting they are made to follow the oath they took. I did not take an oath to pay for the hyper-breeder crankster or active sodomite, should their personal life style choices result in unhealthy conditions. Did you? Docs did.

My exact point about death and health care is this: No amount of money will buy enough health care to avoid death. None. If we can agree on that point, we can then find out why "A" has figured out "$$$" to take from "B" and start spending on "A's chosen few" to pay for the services of docs and pharms. It is all arbitrary welfare crap, and has nothing to do with a healthier America. The welfare state has created more unhealthy people and "poor" people (whatever poor means, anyways) - so why make a bigger welfare system for docs and pharms to get insta-rich?

I support free public clinics, in a building owned by THE STATE, staffed by FREE VOLUNTEERS - ran as a non-profit under a public elected board of directors. And the only qualification to get care would be, must be HUMAN.
All current private hospitas and clinics and insurnces would remain and flex to whatever market forces are there - absent Gov force.

I support free public housing in a building owned by THE STATE, and maintained by FREE VOLUNTEERS (or, non-violent criminal workforce). The accomidations would be Spartan be design and dorm style. Only married people would be housed in married dorms. All others would be segragated by sex. No smoking, drugs, or drinking allowed. No pets. The only qualification would be, must be HUMAN.

I support free food at a building owned by THE STATE and staffed by FREE VOLUTEERS (the idiots supporting welfare now could give directly of their own time), or staffed by non-violent criminal workforce. All food will be donated, second hand, blimished, or otherwise not market based food. The only rule is no selling of the food, and no hording. And ANYONE that wanted the free food could get some.

No more invisible guidelines between "poor enough" and "too wealthy". That is all crap. If THE STATE is to provide anything for FREE, then it should be free to ALL. It's just as bad when libs talk race. How "black" must a person be to be called "black" and get to move to the front of the line? Bullcrap, is all it is. I only use black as an example, do not get all race-baitor on me. I actually $upport ethnic based head-start programs that focus on family -- yes, Focus on the Family - google it.

Bap33 says

I support free public clinics, in a building owned by THE STATE, staffed by FREE VOLUNTEERS - ran as a non-profit under a public elected board of directors. And the only qualification to get care would be, must be HUMAN.
All current private hospitas and clinics and insurnces would remain and flex to whatever market forces are there - absent Gov force.

And where do you volunteer to provide "free" to help the world?

BTW, I'm not sure why you asked me about "compairing" (sic) apples & oranges - although the obvious answer might be that we're discussing healthcare and you're discussing perishable food. Remember that if you become ill from eating said fruit, you'll have to go to the "hospita" (sic) or have your "insurnces" company pay for it.

Bap33 says

Knowing how libs have allowed an invasion into the orange and apple bins .. that was the issue.

I certainly hope that you understand the meaning of your comments, because I doubt anyone else could make sense of them. The only thing that comes through time & time again is that you are conservative, hate liberals, don't like Mexicans because they live in your California, and consider every thread to be a battle that could be won by whining about your awesome ideas if anyone would just listen.

lol ... dang. You pegged me. Cheers.

Unless 'those illegals' are working under the table then they are paying taxes and their employers are paying taxes even if it's under a dead persons SS#. From what I witness, I'd hire a Mexican any day over a most white people I meet in the same profession, skill. They are hard working, they come here to earn money to support their families here and back home. Heck, go to your nearest meat processing plant and tell me what you see (but not too many details as I'd likely puke).

Some folks act like 'those illegals' don't contribute to society. How much would your produce cost if the farmers had to pay 'someone else'. How much would lawn care, construction, kitchen and hotel help cost, meat...?

So let's look at this another way, say one of 'those illegals' comes to the ED via ambulance after an accident caused by no fault of his own. Do we let him bleed out and die because he is 'illegal'. You'd stand there and watch some one die because they are 'illegal'...WTF?

Leigh says

Unless ‘those illegals’ are working under the table then they are paying taxes and their employers are paying taxes even if it’s under a dead persons SS#

The scam that no one wants to talk about. Employers know if a SS# is bad with the first paycheck. They have 12 months to ask for a correction. The person then hands them another phony SS# and can work 12 more months. Again and Again. These people pay millions (perhaps billions) into SS and medicare knowing that they will never see anything from it. So in actual fact the wealthiest group of people (seniors) in the wealthiest country in the world are stealing from the poorest, the illegal immigrants. Perfect.

No one in government or business wants to clean up illegal immigration. There is way too much money for businesses to make and way too many campaign contributions from these business for politicians to ever fix the problem. Start putting business owners in jail for hiring illegals and the estimated 12 million illegals would be gone in a couple of months. Everyone likes to complain about the illegals, but everyone also loves cheap produce, childcare, and lawn/pool care.

Leigh says

So let’s look at this another way, say one of ‘those illegals’ comes to the ED via ambulance after an accident caused by no fault of his own. Do we let him bleed out and die because he is ‘illegal’. You’d stand there and watch some one die because they are ‘illegal’…WTF?

The uninformed who believe that they have all the answers because they know how to google and vent their anger at the illegals don't get it. Healthcare is a human issue. Our system is broken. Instead of offering any realistic answers, they'd rather whine, point fingers, demean other posters and represent themselves as victims of the system that pays for illegals to receive minimal healthcare.

We've beat this thread to death. Rather than acknowledge the problem, posters continually link the problem to their political party and views. Let's let it rest - I hope that the whiners and self-imposed victims never experience a healthcare emergency beyond their ability to pay. I hope that they never encounter a disease that they can't beat, no matter how awesome their insurance might be. But most of all, I hope that age & experience will change their mindset from being bitter about someone receiving healthcare partially subsidized by their tax dollars to understanding that healthcare should never be an option.

Elliemae over & out on this one. No sense beating a dead horse with someone who thinks it's a donkey they can kill a million times to make their point.

Sorry WIWL, not referring to you. I'll try to be more clear in my hurriedness.

So here I am at work and two of my patients today are in for health problems related to heroine and crack, long time welfare, on Medicaid. I think I'd rather be giving free care to my fellow human beings who work hard at the orchards than sit at home doing crack and Old English, just my opinion though.

^ this is why mandated health insurance is such a great idea. Plus we need to throw people who hire under the table into jail -- that's the only way to solve the illegal immigrant problem.

Troy says

^ this is why mandated health insurance is such a great idea. Plus we need to throw people who hire under the table into jail — that’s the only way to solve the illegal immigrant problem.

Mandated health insurance, the beacon of hope for the "free world"