patrick.net

Healthcare for all, regardless of ability to pay. And free chocolate.

A girl can dream.

The saying goes like this: "Take whatever you want and pay for it", NOT 'take what you want and force others to pay for it'. The former represents personal responsibility, the latter represents your typical liberal, do-gooder, free-loader, socialist, elite, dependent, "its nooooot fair", whiney, the world owes me, cry baby, over-reaching, manipulative, coercive, nanny-state, democratic stinkin' thinkin...YUCK.

Honest Abe says

The former represents personal responsibility, the latter represents your typical liberal, do-gooder, free-loader, socialist, elite, dependent, “its nooooot fair”, whiney, the world owes me, cry baby, over-reaching, manipulative, coercive, nanny-state, democratic stinkin’ thinkin…YUCK.

You flatter me.

Yuck flatters you ??? So be it.

Leigh you wear a diaper on head, don't lecture us about personal responsibility.

Health care should be dealt with like food. We need both to live, yet health care has attracted massive govt. interference which has driven up prices.. whereas relatively unregulated grocery stores offer a plethora of affordable food.

Change the tax system from it's current bias with employer tax deductions for healthcare to incentivize individuals to purchase their own healthcare. Because most people do not pay directly for health insurance (employer provided) out of their own pocket, they tend to overuse it driving up insurance costs, and insurance companies are passing through these 'overuse' costs in the form of higher premiums. In a more free market with individuals purchasing healthcare for themselves with their own money, most health care plans would have a more sizeable deductible, say between $500 - $5,000/year deductible, designed to cover individuals for serious illness or injuries. This would not only make health insurance more affordable, it would also provide the incentive for people not to overuse the system. Because people would have to weigh the smaller out-of-pocket expenses with 'is it worth it' and spend/shop accordingly, just like with everything else. Demand for health services, tests, and prescription drugs would drop, resulting in lower cost health insurance premiums

State govts. should be stripped of much of their insurance regulatory powers which have severely limited the choice of insurance providers in each state, which has resulted in oligopolies and monopolies which are free to raise premiums without fear of competition stealing their business.

At one time, many/most of our hospitals were private charities. Private charities are better suited than the government to weed out the 'truly needy' from those who are gaming the system. With $60 billion/year in Medicare fraud alone, there are plenty of companies and individuals gaming the system now. If people truly could not pay, charities would rise to the challenge as they did in the past. Govt is a piss poor substitute for charities as evidenced by their fraud-ridden, wasteful track record in providing healthcare.

We already have a clear example of what results in healthcare when individuals make their own decisions - Laser/Lasik eye treatments have steadily improved in quality while going down in price. That's what happens when individuals are responsible for making choices with their own $$ without govt. control and govt. mandates.

Could you back up your assertions with some type of facts comparing health care choices of people who purchase their own health care vs employer provided health care? where are all these people that want to buy high deductable health care insurance, why does almost no one buy it even when paying for health care insurance themselves? I am all for high deductable health care, but the facts are that very few people actually purchase it. so would you have the government force people into high deductable health insurance plans as part of your plan to get the government out of health care?

ZippyDDoodah says

At one time, many/most of our hospitals were private charities.

at one time average life span was 40 years. would you care to go back?

"Why do almost no one buy it even when paying for HC insurance for themselves?". Could it be because they don't want to. Freedom of choice. Freedom.

Freedom = the ability to exercise one's will in the absence of coercion.

What about the people with chronic illnesses? Illnesses from birth? Cancer and then no job, how do they get insurance back?

Insurance companies cherry pick in every industry they go into. That is how they make money, they find the buyers that will make them the most money. They don't insure individuals who will likely cost them money.

The thing about medical is that every person will need it in their life time. Every single person will need it. Unless you're lucky enough to die in a fiery air plane crash, every person will need it. 1 in 3 has cancer. 1 in 4 dies of heart diseases. Every person must have it.

Comparing past medical with current medical isn't even remotely fair either. Medical from the 1800's was simple at best, the only reason the government wouldn't get involved is because it was something simple and affordable to anyone.

How about dissolving the military, and every person can defend the country themselves? When that mig jet comes over and bombs you, do you think your colt 45 is going to do anything? What could you purchase to defend yourself against a mig dropping bombs on you at 50,000 feet How about when they launch nuclear weapons, do you think you're gun threats will make them pause? NOTHING a single person could do would do anything. A military requires huge sums of money to operate and massive cooperation not obtainable by a single person. Medical in the 1800's could be performed by anyone, there was essentially no training, and nothing they could do, it was a simple profession. Today you need medical teams. Small operations require numerous doctors and nurses, equipment worth more than you'll make in a life time. Medical is no longer something a person can afford, it's a national issue that needs to be dealt with national attention.

Every other government service could be performed by a team of people. From policing, fire fighting, teaching, road building. Everything else is moot and easily handled by a small group of people. You could set up your own fire fighting team if you needed, you could probably do a pretty good job with 6 months training. You could teach your kids if you needed to. You could install sewer, a pump for water, build roads to the city from your house if needed. Medical, you can do nothing about. It's out of your hands and requires a team effort. Insurance is designed to protect select individuals, not everyone. It's a company that hedges bets against what is likely to happen and what isn't and insurers only those it can make money from.

A free market in medical is a nice thought, but when you wake up one day needing an emergency appendix removal, you can't bargain hunt. You can't even call up 3-5 doctors to figure out what to do. You just have to get it done. This is the type of thing an insurance company doesn't want to see. A sniffle is expensive if you go to a doctor for, but net/net it doesn't do much to their profits, an operation kills your profits for years. Even high deductible insurance isn't acceptable, because medical isn't an insurable industry for many people.

It's cute how we think we have a voice about health care.

The reality is we have a spit in the ocean compared to the health care industry bribers who are crawling the halls on the Hill. Every day. Day in, day out, they are there in D.C. and Sacramento, buying a Senator here, a Congressman there, and a few pieces of legislation along the way. Most of us are busying ourselves with earning a living and we get to pretend we have a voice a few times a year at the ballot box. But what does it amount to really? I don't know about you, but I can't afford a Senator right now. Times are tough and I've had to scale back on the family budget.

There's a fat cat insurance briber sitting across the table from your Senator/CongressPerson at this very moment, having a drink and a laugh and getting business done. Personal responsibility and health care? WTF is that anymore? There's no such thing anymore. It's a quaint notion from Mayberry. Does anyone take personal responsibility for anything anymore? I'm waiting to hear about all that personal responsibility from Goldman Sachs and the CEOs of private health insurance companies. They are no different than invading pillagers, stopping at nothing, no matter what the price to our health and well-being. Nope. Personal responsibility is bad for business in these United States.

If I were King, I would make it a crime to profit off the sick. I would mandate that health care is a right to every citizen, regardless of income. I would outlaw bribery. I would mandate a single-payer system like France's, with no greedy, useless middle-men allowed. I would cease the farm subsidies that are ultimately making us sick in ways we are only just realizing. And if you don't see the link between health care, the food industry, and fat profits, then you really need to stop reading Patrick.net and go bone up on how your government actually works. If you think realtors are the scourge of the nation, you ain't seen nothing yet; do a google search on "Monsanto". That should get your blood boiling. And then try a search on the rate of e-coli outbreaks in the last 10 years.

I guess if I were King, I would be a very busy King just trying to undo this mess of a health care system we have.

Make sure to get your daily dose of high fructose corn syrup. It's patriotic.

Honest Abe says

“Why do almost no one buy it even when paying for HC insurance for themselves?”. Could it be because they don’t want to. Freedom of choice. Freedom.
Freedom = the ability to exercise one’s will in the absence of coercion.

I don't have a problem with that as long as they accept the responsibility that goes with it. If people want to be free to make that kind of choice then they will have to be responsible for dying quietly if something pops up they can't afford. What happens in the real world is people want to be free to mooch off of the rest of society if the things they don't want to pay for don't work out. Why should I be coerced as a ratepayer for my insurance to take up the slack when someone without insurance goes to the er and pays nothing? Why don't I have any freedom? It works both ways.

ZippyDDoodah says: Health care should be dealt with like food. We need both to live, yet health care has attracted massive govt. interference which has driven up prices.. whereas relatively unregulated grocery stores offer a plethora of affordable food.

What! Seriously? There is no American industry with more government manipulation than agriculture. Congress effectively decides via subsidies and tax credits which foods we eat, which size farms are profitable, and how much of each crop is produced and where. U.S. agriculture is as close to centrally planned as it comes. You can argue that farmers have choices, but ultimately the subsidies and price stops will decide profitability, and the farms get pushed in specifically intended directions (or get smashed up and absorbed into different farms).

What! Seriously? There is no American industry with more government manipulation than agriculture. Congress effectively decides via subsidies and tax credits which foods we eat, which size farms are profitable, and how much of each crop is produced and where

End all ag subsidies now. Let's have a national referendum on it. Grocery stores are relatively unregulated and farms are less regulated than healthcare. You pretend as if you have some salient point when you don't. My points in my previous post are still 100% valid.

I don’t have a problem with that as long as they accept the responsibility that goes with it. If people want to be free to make that kind of choice then they will have to be responsible for dying quietly if something pops up they can’t afford. What happens in the real world is people want to be free to mooch off of the rest of society if the things they don’t want to pay for don’t work out.

bob, I agree with this statement of yours entirely, even though you are too ignorant to have a clue as to typical healthcare deductibles as evidenced by your earlier comment upthread. If you meant what you wrote here, then I see very little substantive disagreement between your point of view and mine. Freedom of choice means taking responsibility for those choices and living with those responsibilities no matter what. I think you've made this point very well.

ZippyDDoodah says

How about dissolving the military, and every person can defend the country themselves? When that mig jet comes over and bombs you, do you think your colt 45 is going to do anything?

Since you’re so stupid that you need it spelled out for you - National defense cannot feasibly be handled by individuals on their own. Healthcare, and house payments, most definitely can be handled by individuals on their own.

Wow, you are, like, totally smarter than the rest of us. You're an angry little bugger, huh? (Since you're so stupid that you need it spelled out for you, you are offensive and rude).

elliemae says

ZippyDDoodah says

How about dissolving the military, and every person can defend the country themselves? When that mig jet comes over and bombs you, do you think your colt 45 is going to do anything?

Since you’re so stupid that you need it spelled out for you - National defense cannot feasibly be handled by individuals on their own. Healthcare, and house payments, most definitely can be handled by individuals on their own.

Wow, you are, like, totally smarter than the rest of us. You’re an angry little bugger, huh? (Since you’re so stupid that you need it spelled out for you, you are offensive and rude).

I don't know what malt liquor will do for defense but it may help some people around here to relax.

Elliemae, I'm so glad that you've finally acknowledged the massive intelligence and superior personhood of Zippo. Maybe he/she will finally stop foaming at the mouth and offer us some real solutions for a change.

(Where was that link about pigs flying?)

ZippyDDoodah says

I don’t have a problem with that as long as they accept the responsibility that goes with it. If people want to be free to make that kind of choice then they will have to be responsible for dying quietly if something pops up they can’t afford. What happens in the real world is people want to be free to mooch off of the rest of society if the things they don’t want to pay for don’t work out.

bob, I agree with this statement of yours entirely, even though you are too ignorant to have a clue as to typical healthcare deductibles as evidenced by your earlier comment upthread. If you meant what you wrote here, then I see very little substantive disagreement between your point of view and mine. Freedom of choice means taking responsibility for those choices and living with those responsibilities no matter what. I think you’ve made this point very well.

I was asking you for a clue. Back up your opinions with facts. How about some research findings? How about some hard numbers? You know it all, prove it. I worked (although I got out that industry 9 years ago, people I talk to say it hasn't changed) in medical office management and know for a fact that at that time high deductable and/or catastrophic plans are few and far between even for people who pay their own way. Why I don't know.

You missed my secondary point altogether, which is that your dreamworld scenario of people taking responsibility doesn't exist in real life, as much as I would like it to be so. People talk a good game about freedom, but when the responsibility part comes up they are the first in line to suck off other peoples teat.

There are many, many factors in the cost of health care. Many things could be done to cut costs. To simply say people see the doctor too much because they don't pay enough out of pocket shows that you are the one utterly lacking a clue.

You know it all, prove it. I worked (although I got out that industry 9 years ago, people I talk to say it hasn’t changed) in medical office management and know for a fact that at that time high deductable and/or catastrophic plans are few and far between even for people who pay their own way. Why I don’t know.

Let's be clear - you aggressively accuse me of misrepresenting facts when I was just offering suggestions. And the "facts" you claim are completely unsupported and bogus http://ur.lc/iue . Average deductible for individual health insurance was $2,000 back in 2005. With the rise in health care insurance premiums, it's a near certain bet that the average individual health insurance deductible has risen above that $2,000 average. And it makes sense that it would. Anyone who has shopped individual health insurance plans know that the sweet spot in individual health insurance is with annual deductible of $500 and up.

bob, did you misremember those "facts" from your days working in medical office management ("I know for a fact that high deductible plans are few and far between!") or did you simply make it up?

To simply say people see the doctor too much because they don’t pay enough out of pocket shows that you are the one utterly lacking a clue.

When something is "free" or "near free", demand for that product or service rises. Did that really need to be spelled out for you?

Maybe he/she will finally stop foaming at the mouth and offer us some real solutions for a change.

As anyone reading this thread can see for themselves, I'm the ONLY one on this thread except for LowlysmartRenter who made suggestions for solutions to the health care system in my very first post. The rest is just sniping from those like you who want to discourage any real discussion. That's why you came out with your absurd "analogy" regarding national defense.

ZippyDDoodah says

Maybe he/she will finally stop foaming at the mouth and offer us some real solutions for a change.

As anyone reading this thread can see for themselves, I’m the ONLY one on this thread except for LowlysmartRenter who made suggestions for solutions to the health care system in my very first post. The rest is just sniping from those like you who want to discourage any real discussion. That’s why you came out with your absurd “analogy” regarding national defense.

Zippo, I think you're getting your Liberals confused. Oh, sorry, you must be right due to your superior nature even though the evidence in this thread proves otherwise.

ZippyDDoodah says

Health care should be dealt with like food. We need both to live, yet health care has attracted massive govt. interference which has driven up prices

Yes, Zippy, your analogies are much, much better...

tatupu70 says

ZippyDDoodah says

Health care should be dealt with like food. We need both to live, yet health care has attracted massive govt. interference which has driven up prices

Yes, Zippy, your analogies are much, much better…

That's because government never interferes with agriculture, food preparation, inspection, or delivery, ever. C'mon tatupu70, get with the program. Zippo is far superior and it's time we just silently admire the intellect.

>>We already have a clear example of what results in healthcare when individuals make their own decisions - Laser/Lasik eye treatments have steadily improved in quality while going down in price.

Zippy, I think you are overlooking something obvious: Lasik is not a *necessary* procedure, as a heart surgery is. There exist ultra-cheap alternatives. They are called eyeglasses (or contact lenses), and you can get them all over the web for $40.

If you can demonstrate that ALL lifesaving medical procedures have cheap and safe alternatives, then we can talk again. But was we all know, that is not the case and likely never will be. Your argument does not hold water.

The reason lasik is getting cheaper is competitive pressure, nothing else.

Lasik is a simple procedure that is elective, has a great sales team pushing it, and requires almost no doctors time. I had it done, it was 15 minute procedure at most. The most time was spent in discussions and sales pitches.

Heart surgery there is *NO* time to comparative shop, it's a done deal. When you need it, you need to get it done asap. It requires massive amounts of high tech gear, it requires massive numbers of trained professionals.

How about we have an option to stop paying for defense spending as well? Any tax payer who doesn't deem it necessary can have a 50% deduction on their taxes. Let's see what happens next year. The whole mentality of "let someone else pay" would probably take over.

Medical isn't something people might need, it is something they will need at some point in their life. If they don't understand this, then it's a failure in the education system. We don't buy military defense insurance, we invest in it, because it will be needed at some point. It's just a fact of life. Medical falls into the same category. It needs the government to ensure everyone pitches in for something everyone needs, whether they "want it" or not.

LowlySmartRenter says

It’s cute how we think we have a voice about health care.

I think it's even cuter that zippy thinks we're stupid, yet condescends to bestow his wisdom upon us. His keyboard seems stuck on that link, but otherwise he seems like a nice chap. simchaland says

I don’t know what malt liquor will do for defense but it may help some people around here to relax.

Mixed drinks are clearly a necessity here. It's hard to take you seriously when you're obviously lacking in your awareness of situational alcohol appropriateness. It was my college major.

What happened to bob2356 and his angry demands to "Back up your opinions with facts!"? As soon as said opinions were backed up with linked citations, he seems to have exited out the back door in search of his credibility.

Lasik is a simple procedure that is elective, has a great sales team pushing it, and requires almost no doctors time. I had it done, it was 15 minute procedure at most. The most time was spent in discussions and sales pitches.

Heart surgery there is *NO* time to comparative shop, it’s a done deal. When you need it, you need to get it done asap. It requires massive amounts of high tech gear, it requires massive numbers of trained professionals.

Yet with all those sales pitches, the quality kept improving and the cost keeps dropping.. unlike other medical procedures that are widely covered by insurance. Why do you think that is and what could we possibly learn from it?

Btw, modern Lasik also requires expensive "high tech gear" too in case you didn't know. Many medical procedures covered by insurance involve plenty of time to comparative shop. And others offer opportunities, if there was freedom to do so, to negotiate *In advance* for discounted rates for emergency situations.

The Laser/Lasik example is still standing tall at this point

I try to be personally responsible for my healthcare. I currently enjoy healthcare insurance through my employer. The problem I see is that premiums have increased and continue to increase so much that my employer my have to drop or radically decrease coverage. I have a self-employed friend now paying $1800 a month to cover himself, his wife, and e children. It is no Cadillac plan. That is $21600 per year. He makes about 100k. His fed and state taxes are half that. Once you think about it, considering the vast array of services ranging the worlds most powerful defense to providing medical care for the most cronically Ill it seems to me that the taxpayer is getting a pretty good bang for their buck.

As far as I am aware there are only 3 insurance companies doing business in California. Where is the competition? There is none because basically the insurers collude to fix rates. And try to find a catastrophic policy. Sorry, they want high deductable comprehensive but still very high cost. Frankly insurers are currently jacking rates into the stratosphere because they like all the rest of the financials are taking a thurough assbeating in real estate-commercial. The execs and board members will get their asses fired if they pass the losses on to share holders. So the only way to save themselves is to screw the ratpayers. This is the main reason why we should have open competition in the insurance market. This is also why we should have a public option. Why should I not have a choice of paying premiums to the gov for healthcare is I so desire?

Isn't it a bit odd that the supposedly competitive insurance don't want to compete with gov? Could it be that maybe insurers have to many legacy costs to compete? I think so.

I am trying to be responsible but the insurers have rigged the game.

elliemae says

simchaland says

I don’t know what malt liquor will do for defense but it may help some people around here to relax.

Mixed drinks are clearly a necessity here. It’s hard to take you seriously when you’re obviously lacking in your awareness of situational alcohol appropriateness. It was my college major.

Bloody Mary's all around! My treat.

Frankly insurers are currently jacking rates into the stratosphere because they like all the rest of the financials are taking a thurough assbeating in real estate-commercial.The execs and board members will get their asses fired if they pass the losses on to share holders. So the only way to save themselves is to screw the ratpayers.

They've probably taken losses in real estate. But they are small in comparison. Insurance companies operate on a 2% - 4% profit margin. The total profits of the largest 10 insurance companies in the US, that total is less than 1/2 of the amount Medicare fraud every year. And that fraud-ridden, wasteful as hell government system is what we have to look forward to with Obamacare

Why should I not have a choice of paying premiums to the gov for healthcare is I so desire?

Because I, and the other 53% of those in this country still paying taxes will have to pay to subsidize you. Pull your own weight

2 to 4 percent? Why would anyone run a company for 2 percent? Oh I know, how bout for the mulimillion dollar salaries.

Oh and just so we're here I said premiums not subsidies. I already pay subsidies-some to grossly overpaid executives.

By the way I have and continue to work and pay my way through life.

Maybe zip needs to cool down and concentrate a little harder on peddling his overpriced insurance.

Gosh, and private health insurance companies have the cream of the crop. Imagine if they had to cover those expensive folks, like the elderly, the disabled?

I was shocked to hear that only three insurance companies operate in California. In Oregon we have plenty of competition but it doesn't seem to lower costs. Our options: LifeWise, BC/BS, Aetna, United Health, Kaiser, Providence, HealthNet, Pacific Source, ODS and that's just off the top of my head.

A recent example of how personal experiences shape your opinions:

I was visiting the in-laws this weekend in the Puget Sound area. My MIL is 62, unemployed and without health insurance, mentioned her before. My SIL and BIL are anti-universal health care in a big way and would even like to see Medicare and Medicaid shrunk. They recently dropped employer sponsored health care as they started their own business and discovered that individual plans have lower premiums for similar coverage compared to group health which lead them to the belief that uninsured people have no excuse due to the individual plan options.

Well, their 18 month old has numerous food allergies and early signs of asthma. The child has been hospitalized 2x already for breathing problems. This is where you find out how good of coverage you have. Well, they owed nearly $3K out of pocket. When the BIL asked about a payment plan the billing office was able to hook them up with assistance which covered the entire bill not paid by insurance. I was shocked that they qualified considering they have insurance and he makes nearly $100K. And now the latest, their premium got increased 20%.

It will be interesting to hear how the health care conversations go now that they will be frequent users of the system as it is very likely their child will be an asthmatic.

Honest Abe says

The saying goes like this: “Take whatever you want and pay for it”, NOT ‘take what you want and force others to pay for it’. The former represents personal responsibility, the latter represents your typical liberal, do-gooder, free-loader, socialist, elite, dependent, “its nooooot fair”, whiney, the world owes me, cry baby, over-reaching, manipulative, coercive, nanny-state, democratic stinkin’ thinkin…YUCK.

@ABE

If you dont think you will ever need these services then you are lost. Many people in our nation cannot afford to take what they need and pay for it so it is the responsibility of those of us who can to assist them. You need to relinquish the thought that all socialism is bad because its not, and stop thinking that all capitalism is good because the recession has shown that it is not.

-You run to church to give 10% tithes so the church can prosper and spread your hatred of other religions but refuse to spend the same for programs that actually help assist our communities.

- You become infuriated when you hear that we are going to provide health care to the poor because you believe that the POOR are BLACK/MEXICAN when in actuality whites still make up a majority of the lower income families in terms of sheer numbers.

- You become infuriated when you hear that we liberals are attempting to introduce banking legislation, but proclaim your excitement when told we would invade Iraq to destroy another 1 million muslim lives.

- You would rather engage in war with other countries than take care of the problems hear in America

- You and the PARTY OF NO refuse to allow our nation to spend on programs aimed at progressing past a 3rd world education system, health care system, economic system but are openly OK with spending 1 trillion a year on War and Defense.

Leigh:
I liked the diaper head! Does this mean I have to change my icon?

elliemae says

Leigh:

I liked the diaper head! Does this mean I have to change my icon?

No, keep the Aussie:O) The pull-up wasn't keeping the sh!t out so I gotta think of something else.hehehe

She's almost 3 now, might do a grown-up pic. Right now she's trying to herd cats out back. Not working out so well...

Zippy,

>>The Laser/Lasik example is still standing tall at this point

Huh? I completely exposed the fallacy of your example, and you just ignore it.

The Veterans Administration (VA) is real good about helping Vets live a healthier life style. They have a number of programs that do that. Anti-smoking, weight control, etc.

This helps the Vets as well as reducing the cost of healthcare.