patrick.net

One suggestion is that the tax relief provided to members of the military and their families would be offset by this 'exit' tax.

The HART bill was passed (after Bush vetoed it) with only 3 NO votes (emphasis mine):

"The Exit Tax happened quickly. It was introduced on May 16, 2008. It passed with only 3 dissenting votes in the House on May 20th. It passed in the Senate unanimously on May 22nd. All this in only 6 days. (The three dissenting votes in the house were David Wu, Barney Frank and Ron Paul .) The bill becomes law when President Bush signs it, or after 30 days from its passage, whichever comes first."

The bill was about 333 pages long and passed just before the Memorial Day break.

It's chock full of tax breaks for select groups and of course offsets paid by other groups. Typical DC sausage making.

Who has time to read 333 pages of a bill? On a Thursday before a 4 day weekend?

Anyway, that's how we let it happen. That's how these steaming piles of crap get passed into law (think HCR) every day.

You posted this once before--I still fail to understand the outrage. When someone with >2MM tries to give up his cutuzenship to avoid taxes, I won't be crying any tears if he can't do it...

"tatupu70 says

You posted this once before–

I certainly have not posted this before. I have made reference to these laws in other threads when others have made innaccurate comments, such as "You are free to leave if you are not happy."

tatupu70 says

When someone with >2MM tries to give up his cutuzenship to avoid taxes, I won’t be crying any tears if he can’t do it…

This is pure class warfare, as well as disgustingly un-American sentiment.

"If they use your property to keep you a prisoner how does that differ from saying you don't own your property? If the government claims that the property belonging to that individual is the property of the government then there are no property rights. Congress is in effect telling the American people that they cannot take their property when they leave, nor the fruit of their labor, nor the fruit of their future labor. It sounds suspiciously like they are saying that your brain belongs to them. If this legislature proved to be effective it would mean that if your body happened to escape they would still own your brain. Jurisdictional prison - a virtual Berlin Wall for a virtual age."

CBOEtrader says

This is pure class warfare, as well as disgustingly un-American sentiment.

I'd argue that it's un-American to give up your citizenship to avoid paying your share of taxes.

CBOEtrader says

You are free to leave if you are not happy.”

You are free to leave. You just have to pay taxes.

tatupu70 says

I’d argue that it’s un-American to give up your citizenship to avoid paying your share of taxes.

Are you saying there would never be a valid reason to give up American citizenship?

A few very valid non-tax reasons to give up citizenship would be:

1)US citizens are quickly becoming crippled in business by the US government regulations.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/americans-citizenship-irs-gets-aggressive-overseas/

"An Ohio-born entrepreneur, now based in Switzerland, told Dow Jones he is considering turning in his U.S. passport. Mounting U.S. tax and reporting requirements are making potential business partners hesitate to do business with him, he said..."The tax itself is only a small part of the issue," the Swiss-based entrepreneur said. "It's the overall regulatory environment." "

2)A moral need to not support a murderous US empirical military

3)A person that simply lives, works, and raises family in another country with few regular ties to the US

Furthermore, why shoud it matter? This is supposed to be a FREE country. You do know what that means right?

CBOEtrader says

Are you saying there would never be a valid reason to give up American citizenship?

I'm sure there are

CBOEtrader says

1)US citizens are quickly becoming crippled in business by the US government regulations.

This would not be one of them, however. US regulations are not onerous compared to the rest of the world...

CBOEtrader says

2)A moral need to not support a murderous US empirical military

So, instead of trying to change things in the US, you give up and move? Not sure I'd agree that's a valid reason to leave.

CBOEtrader says

3)A person that simply lives, works, and raises family in another country with few regular ties to the US

Sure, I guess that's a logical reason.

CBOEtrader says

Furthermore, why shoud it matter? This is supposed to be a FREE country. You do know what that means right?

Yes I do. Do you? FREE means you can leave whenever you want. Which you can. No one will stop you. And if you are among the richest people in the US, you will have to pay some taxes upon leaving.

tatupu70 says

1)US citizens are quickly becoming crippled in business by the US government regulations.
This would not be one of them, however. US regulations are not onerous compared to the rest of the world…

You speak authoritatively, yet you have no idea what you are talking about. I suppose I shouldn't be suprised given that our media won't discuss this topic.

International businesses and business people do not want American ownership or American customer capital, due directly to the "onerous" regulatory requirements of the US government. The Patriot Act emboldens our govt. to pry into the books and records of any international business, bank, partnership, or brokerage that has either direct US owners or manages US capital. Could you imagine Abu Dhabi asking private companies in the US to open their books, because the company is somehow affiliated with one of its citizens? The arrogance and mountain of extra costs from this type of crap puts a huge competitive disadvantage on the US business person. Not too mention the investment disadvantage that we already have given that we are the ONLY industrialized democracy that taxes international investments and income. Every international investor with money in the US, invests with ZERO capital gains tax. This is never discussed here, but info is readily available, and well-known throughout the rest of the world.

But regardless, it shouldn't matter. Besides paying the normal tax that the citizen would owe up to that point upon dropping citizenship, there should be zero extra requirements. That is, unfortunately, far from the current situation.

You act as if this is somehow a distant distraction to you. While the taxes are punishing in themselves, it is the concept that is the biggest issue. Our government, and many of its people (such as you from what I can tell) no longer respects the sanctity private property rights.

Haven't you heard of the proposed California exit tax, which luckily never gained traction?

"An Exit Tax and a Wealth Tax for Californians?
An activist is now attempting to obtain 694,354 signatures to place a wealth tax/California exit tax on the 2010 ballot. This initiative would:
- Impose a one-time tax of 55% on property exceeding $20 million of a California resident or held in California by nonresident;
- Imposes a tax of between 36.5% to 54.3% when a resident dies or leaves California;
- Imposes additional 17.5% tax on total incomes of taxpayers with income exceeding $150,000 if single, $250,000 if married;
- Imposes additional 35% tax if incomes exceed $350,000 if single, $500,000 if married;
- Requires State to acquire shares of specified corporations (i.e. GM, Ford, ExxonMobil, etc.) to influence environmental practices.
"

Of course this proposal never got off the ground, but it is a scary sentiment. We all need to defend our liberties, lest they very slowly be taken away from us. Allowing rich people to have their liberties trampled opens the rest of us up to the same down the road.

CBOEtrader says

But regardless, it shouldn’t matter. Besides paying the normal tax that the citizen would owe up to that point upon dropping citizenship, there should be zero extra requirements. That is, unfortunately, far from the current situation.

Why? You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see that as a fundamental right. Freedom to leave, yes. Freedom to leave without paying any taxes, no. How is that a "liberty"

All taxes are bad--no one likes to pay them. I just don't see how this is any worse than an inheritance tax or the lottery winnnings tax or property tax. You still have the "sanctity of property rights". No one from the government will come and take your things without cause. But we have a tax code and the government will follow the laws.

No offense--but I do know what I'm talking about. You talk about US citizens quickly being crippled in business by US government regulations. Then you talk about capital gains tax rates? Huh? And the Patriot Act? Neither of those is "crippling" US citizens in business. It sounds like what you were trying to say was that it hurts US companies trying to purchase international businesses. Perhaps it is a small factor... I doubt it really matters in the final decision though

tatupu70 says

No offense–but I do know what I’m talking about.

This is childish. You are so confused, you don't even realize it.

tatupu70 says

Neither of those is “crippling” US citizens in business.

Most boutique international brokerages and hedge funds will not accept you as a customer, nor as a business partner, due to the massive extra regulatory burdens the US imposes VIA THE PATRIOT ACT. Your international equivalent investor can invest in US securities, enter into a US partnership, or invest in US small businesses WITHOUT PAYING CAPITAL GAINS TAXES, whereas you can not invest anywhere without paying capital gains taxes. Are you denying these facts? Or are you simply denying that this can be crippling to a US citizen doing international business, or engaging in partnerships with non-US citizens?

tatupu70 says

Then you talk about capital gains tax rates? Huh? And the Patriot Act?

Are these concepts too difficult for you?

CBOE--

So, limited access to international boutique brokerages is crippling US businessmen? Is that what you are theorizing?

CBOEtrader says

Not too mention the investment disadvantage that we already have given that we are the ONLY industrialized democracy that taxes international investments and income.

That is incorrect. International investments are taxed by most industrialized countries. I could show you my overseas tax returns as proof positive that this is true. The US is the only country other than North Korea that taxes overseas income.

The so called exit tax isn't a big deal anyway other than in a libertarian sense. The exemptions are huge, if you are wealthy enough for it to matter then you are wealthy enough to get around it.

tatupu70 says

So, limited access to international boutique brokerages is crippling US businessmen? Is that what you are theorizing?

It's not just boutique, most major European banks have dropped investment accounts for American citizens already. Foreign governments and overseas financial institutions are sick of the IRS. They rightfully feel that they aren't responsible for policing US citizens. If some of the more onerous proposals from the IRS go through most overseas banks have stated that they are going to drop all US accounts including checking and savings. If you don't think that will be a problem then you don't live in the real world.

Very few Americans or American business's that aren't international realize how fluid and interconnected the rest of the world is along with how insular the US is. I'm a US citizen, yet when I'm back in the states just doing many day to day personal transactions is a major hassle. Things that are simple and easily done worldwide. I've had hassles with banks, brokerages, government agencies, and private business's over using my passport for ID or having an overseas address. I've been told that transactions weren't legal, against IRS rules, against federal law, etc., etc. when I know perfectly well they don't have a clue what they are talking about.

It's much worse since the patriot act. People just assume anything that involves foreign must run afoul of the patriot act in some way. The fact the rules change constantly doesn't help any.

Many people around the world live overseas from their home country on a regular basis, even in relatively low level jobs. They know the ins and outs of other countries. It's a huge difference living somewhere than visiting. There is so much you can't learn without being on the ground.

tatupu70 says

CBOE–
So, limited access to international boutique brokerages is crippling US businessmen? Is that what you are theorizing?

Bob obviously knows more about this than I do. I am still planning my escape, whereas he has been sprung. I suggest you read his post for a reference point, since you seem insulated from the state of world affairs.

I am not "theorizing". I am stating facts. International businesses and business people want nothing to do with Americans. The situation is so bad that it is crippling to anyone who does international business, particularly in the financial industry.

bob2356 says

It’s not just boutique, most major European banks have dropped investment accounts for American citizens already. Foreign governments and overseas financial institutions are sick of the IRS. They rightfully feel that they aren’t responsible for policing US citizens. If some of the more onerous proposals from the IRS go through most overseas banks have stated that they are going to drop all US accounts including checking and savings. If you don’t think that will be a problem then you don’t live in the real world.

The expert has spoken. Tat, now interpolate from these comments in reference to a simple customer relationship to what it is like to actually enter into a partnership with international business people. The US government's onerous regulation is crippling our opportunities.

bob2356 says

Very few Americans or American business’s that aren’t international realize how fluid and interconnected the rest of the world is along with how insular the US is.

You can thank Tat for proving your point.

bob2356 says

CBOEtrader says
Not too mention the investment disadvantage that we already have given that we are the ONLY industrialized democracy that taxes international investments and income.
That is incorrect. International investments are taxed by most industrialized countries. I could show you my overseas tax returns as proof positive that this is true.

I am not doubting that you are the expert here, but I am confused about something. How would your tax return, being that you are a US citizen, show proof of other countries taxing foreign capital gains?

I am trying to think about how to make my point without implicating people I know...but I am aware of some Europeans, living internationally, that pay no capital gains taxes on their US investments. Is this kosher, by your understanding of tax laws? Am I misinformed, perhaps? Or could it be that these guys are doing cute accounting tricks, such as using trusts, international business companies, etc?

CBOEtrader says

bob2356 says

CBOEtrader says

Not too mention the investment disadvantage that we already have given that we are the ONLY industrialized democracy that taxes international investments and income.

That is incorrect. International investments are taxed by most industrialized countries. I could show you my overseas tax returns as proof positive that this is true.

I am not doubting that you are the expert here, but I am confused about something. How would your tax return, being that you are a US citizen, show proof of other countries taxing foreign capital gains?
I am trying to think about how to make my point without implicating people I know…but I am aware of some Europeans, living internationally, that pay no capital gains taxes on their US investments. Is this kosher, by your understanding of tax laws? Am I misinformed, perhaps? Or could it be that these guys are doing cute accounting tricks, such as using trusts, international business companies, etc?

You file tax returns in both countries. My NZ and US returns both show my total worldwide investment income and the taxes due. It gets really tricky (thank god I have an accountant that really know this stuff) when you start getting into investment income since each countries rules on what is investment income are different. You don't pay double taxes. You the taxes owed to the country you live in first (including any taxes on investment income), then if the US taxes are higher you pay the difference between what you paid to your country of residence and the total of the US taxes owed to the US. In NZ this never happens, I always pay more in taxes to NZ than I owe to the US. If I lived in Dubai (which may happen) I would pay no taxes to Dubai which has none and full taxes to the US just like I was living there. There is a large exemption on your US tax return if you live overseas for 330 days in the year you can claim so you do pay less even in this case.

As per Europeans living abroad it really depends on the laws of the country of residence. Every country has different rules on what they consider investment income and capital gains. The rules here in NZ are very different. For example depreciation schedules for real estate are very high and you depreciate your building infrastructure (water heater, ac, heater, plumbing, electrical) at an even much higher rate than the structure itself. You can actually generate a substantial paper loss against your taxes. BUT when you sell the property all the depreciation is backed out and you pay it back so in reality it's just an interest free loan from the government. Another example is that there is no capital gains on real estate in NZ unless you buy with the intent to resell. Needless to say this can be very tricky to set up properly and a lot of overseas investors have gotten burned recently due to very bad accounting advice.

I am not at all sure how the capital gains laws would work in relation to foreign nationals since I am a US citizen and it is not applicable to me. If they were physically living in the states I would think (but don't know) it would be very hard to avoid since they would be filing a US tax return. If they didn't live in the US I would imagine they would be responsible for paying capital gains and investment income taxes as per the laws of their home country. If they were citizens of one country, physically lived in another, and invested in the US I would hope they could afford a really top international tax person. Things get really fuzzy and subject to lots of interpretation at that point.

I had wondered why the various European governments were so anxious to get their hands on the infamous stolen Swiss bank account records since the nationals of those countries wouldn't owe income tax on the accounts if they were not living in their country. I had a long talk with a German friend who explained that what they were looking for is to match up the Swiss bank records with their own tax records to look for unreported income by people who weren't living overseas. Aha! A lot of people are sweating this one out around the world.

tatupu70 says

I’d argue that it’s un-American to give up your citizenship to avoid paying your share of taxes.

That's almost a pretty good tautology!

CBOEtrader says

tatupu70 says

I’d argue that it’s un-American to give up your citizenship to avoid paying your share of taxes.

Are you saying there would never be a valid reason to give up American citizenship?

I'm saying that you aren't much of an American if you are willing to swear allegiance to another country in order to deprive the USA of the tax revenue which is necessary to run our government that allows you to so freely amass such a fortune.

That's unAmerican and unpatriotic.

I won't cry a river if rich jerks surrender their citizenships to avoid paying taxes. I will be pissed if our government allows them to leave without paying for the privilege they enjoyed as American citizens that allowed them to become rich jerks in the first place.

And as you leave, don't let the door hit you where the sun don't shine on the way out. Good riddance to the unpatriotic Aristocrats who only want to benefit from our country without having to pay their fair share of the bills.

simchaland says

Good riddance to the unpatriotic Aristocrats who only want to benefit from our country without having to pay their fair share of the bills.

What % of their income would you consider their "fair share?"

Why should someone pay taxes, again, on the same money they earned (and paid taxes on) in the first place?? They already paid their "fair share".

Its unamerican to manipluate people in a free country with forced monetary controls. This is yet another example of an oppressive monetary tactic used by many other failed empires in history.

simchaland says

I’m saying that you aren’t much of an American if you are willing to swear allegiance to another country in order to deprive the USA of the tax revenue which is necessary to run our government that allows you to so freely amass such a fortune.

You are somehow not aware that everyone wealthy or not pays their taxes (fair share of the bills) every year? Perhaps the concept that if someone gives up their citizenship then they are no longer using any of the governments services a little too difficult to grasp? Hint, if someone is no longer a citizen then they don't have any obligation for fund what is now a foreign government.

Nomograph says

Nobody paid for the hospital they were born in, the schools they attended, etc.

Hospitals and schools are businesses that charge for their services. Since I used the private versions, my parents paid for the private bill on top of paying taxes for others to use the public version. My parents paid for these services for me (as well as many others less fortunate through taxes), just like I will pay for these services for my children. If I am blessed with wealth in life I will gladly help others to education and healthcare, though most likely they will be poor foreigners and not poor US citizens. There remains no outstanding debt, moral or otherwise.

Regardless, this is all besides the point. A government is given its authority by the citizens. If a free citizen disagrees with the actions of his government, he should be free to leave.

I am by no means rich. I would like to gain citizenship to another country and drop the US citizenship as political protest against our military imperialism, moreso than any other reason. Cutting off a government's tax power base one citizen at a time is the most effective protest, by far.

Nomograph says

Basically, you want people to mooch off the previous generation, then skip out when it’s payback time.

Are you arguing that a US citizen is morally indentured to the US government? How very progressive of you.

Regardless, your statement is not supported in fact. The US baby-boomer generation racked up a debt on the credit of future generations. It is the past and current generations that are mooching off future generations that is our big problem.

CBOEtrader says

Regardless, this is all besides the point. A government is given its authority by the citizens. If a free citizen disagrees with the actions of his government, he should be free to leave.

You are free to leave. No one will stop you. You just may have to pony up a little money if you are super rich...

tatupu70 says

Freedom to leave without paying any taxes, no. How is that a “liberty”

Rofl, too funny...

Nomograph says

CBOE wants to make his money as a US citizen, then abdicate. Why not grow a pair and give up your citizenship *before* you parasitically suck wealth out of the US economy? You are free to do so with very little tax implications.
You want to have your cake and eat it too, and the US government is having none of it.

Wow! You made up an entire story line in your head...all of it innacurate.

I am attempting to give up my citizenship as soon as I can gain citizenship to a reputable foreign country. These sort of things can take 5 years. This is a long term goal, not something that happens overnight. It is also something I am very mixed on. I love my country. It is our government that I have problems with.

I am 32 years old, and have not made any type of fortune yet, parasitically or otherwise. I do have some international business plans though, to which my US citizenship is a lot more of a liability than an asset. This has more to do with the regulatory burdens that the US places upon US citizens and US capital, than the capital gains or income tax rates.

bob2356 says

simchaland says

I’m saying that you aren’t much of an American if you are willing to swear allegiance to another country in order to deprive the USA of the tax revenue which is necessary to run our government that allows you to so freely amass such a fortune.

You are somehow not aware that everyone wealthy or not pays their taxes (fair share of the bills) every year? Perhaps the concept that if someone gives up their citizenship then they are no longer using any of the governments services a little too difficult to grasp? Hint, if someone is no longer a citizen then they don’t have any obligation for fund what is now a foreign government.

Actually I'm more aware of how the richest 1-10% use the immense loop-holes written into the tax code by other rich jerks so that they can avoid paying their fair share of taxes every year.

So what you are saying is that it's ethically just to use our country as a place to become stinking rich and then cut and run when confronted with the bill for services and privileges you received while becoming stinking rich?

I'd say that all of us as people who were born, raised, and who have benefited from our system of government, that we elect and that we place in power, have a duty to financially support that government in recompense for the benefits we have received from living in a place where we are mainly at peace, have opportunities to make money, and to have our basic human rights respected by that government (mostly, at least it was like that before the "Patriot Acts" put into effect by the Bush Regime). And we have a duty to financially support that government's continuance for generations of Americans who are growing up and who have yet to live.

If you don't want to live up to your duty then get out of our country and try to make your money somewhere else like China, India, or Western Europe. We don't need freeloading Aristocrats here.

Nomograph says

CBOEtrader says

Wow! You made up an entire story line in your head…

I believe CBOEtrader is also being investigated by the Options Exchange Committee, which is why he needs to flee the country. He is quite possibly all tied in with Enron, AIG, BP, and the whole subprime lending mess as well.

The disbarred, crazy, old, lying, army-rejected geezer is rambling on about some anger induced fantasy again. If anyone took you seriously, this would be considered slander.

Why are you still here? All you do is criticize, while adding nothing of value to the forum. You are a troll, that spends his free time attacking those that you feel are trolling patrick.net--which means you are also a hypocrite. Congratulations. You must be proud of yourself.

CBOE - I couldn't have said it better myself - well done !

simchaland says

Actually I’m more aware of how the richest 1-10% use the immense loop-holes written into the tax code by other rich jerks so that they can avoid paying their fair share of taxes every year.

So what you are saying is that it’s ethically just to use our country as a place to become stinking rich and then cut and run when confronted with the bill for services and privileges you received while becoming stinking rich?

That's contradictory. If the stinking rich aren't paying taxes now how will they be paying in the future? Better they left so they aren't using any services they aren't paying for and didn't pay taxes somewhere else. Why do you feel that people somehow owe taxes in the future for services they are using right now? What about services you will be using in the future? Do you pay them further in the future? Then further, then further. The taxes you pay right now are for what you are using right now. Explain what services and privileges people use to get stinking rich that the didn't pay taxes for?

Nomograph says

Honest Abe says

CBOE - I couldn’t have said it better myself - well done !

That doesn’t surprise me; I have long suspected that Honest Abe and CBOEtrader were both involved in the conspiracy. Eventually traitors always reveal themselves.
Luckily, the FBI is probably monitoring this forum.

Your grasp on reality is slipping, but its still good to see an old man entertain himself. Human interaction of any kind is important for octegenarians to keep the mind sharp.

'Ata boy blue!

Liberals are usually very good at argument and debate. They have to be - they are without the support of logic and common sense. Most rely of "feelings" and feel good policies. They seldom care to discuss the ugly, hurtful, harmful unintended consequences of their feel good policies and programs...oops.

yawn.

Can someone wake me up when anything intelligent is written here?

Nomograph, let's pick up elliemae and plot how we're going to grub up all the money and take over the world!

simchaland says

Nomograph, let’s pick up elliemae and plot how we’re going to grub up all the money and take over the world!

Did I fall?

If human beings have positive rights to food, clothes, jobs, education, health care, child care, abortion, a clean and safe environment, adequate social status, leisure time or any other good, service or condition, and if these entitlements are deemed enforcable, then people who don't have them are being negelected and deprived and are therefore victims of injustice.

Accordingly, a free society and a free country are profundly unjust because it zealously protects only the basic rights essential to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness in a peaceful and orderly environment.

Abe--

Do you think it's the government's job to worry about society in addition to individuals? Where does an individual's rights end when it affects others?

The Constitution of the United States - a charter for LIMITED government created the freest, most prosperous nation in human history. The ever-expanding bloated government now in Washington is indifferent, even hostile, to liberty and the free enterprise system.

Our national "leadership" (haha) is moving America rapidly in the direction of more and more big government bureaucratic despotism. Big, bloated, parasitic government is the negation of freedom. Wasn't FREEDOM one of the cornerstones in the founding of our Nation?

Yes, yes, yes. You've written your opinions on our government many times. How about answering a question and thinking outside your regular talking points?

How about this? What would it take for someone on the "right" to go to the darkside? AND what would it take for someone from the radical left to move over to the opposite side?

I suppose that when the governments burden becomes too great, there are some rightwingers that might throw in the towel, quit working so many hours, say "Why bother killing myself", and look for a way to get on the government"gravy-train".

I guess a liberal who might have become very successful at something, and the rewards of his efforts pay off in a really big way, might say "Wait a minute - I'm the one who invented this product, I'm the one who's been working 7 days a week for the past 6 years. I'm the one who has been working 12 hours a day. I'm the one who mortgaged my house to the limit to get this product off the ground. I'm the one who has all the risk. And now that I'm finally seeing the fruits of my labor I must now share 50%, or more, with Uncle Sam so he can hand it out to others??? I suppose at that point some lefties might begin to see the virtues of the other side.

BTW - my 50%, or more, comes from the addition of the following taxes (some we pay directly, others we pay indirectly...hidden through higher costs): Federal tax, State tax , Sales tax , Gasoline tax - Federal, Gasoline tax - State, DMV "fees" (aka tax), Property tax, Tobacco tax, Death tax, License fees (aka tax), Capital gains tax, Alcohol tax, Dog license fees (tax) Unemployment tax, Inheritance tax, Food tax, Gas guzzler tax, Gift tax, Luxury tax, Marriage license fee (tax), Medicare tax, Real Estate transfer tax, Recreational vehicle tax, Business tax, Tenant occupancy tax, Transient occupancy tax, Parking occupancy tax, City tax, Social Security tax, Telephone Federal Excise fee (tax), Workers compensation tax, Watercraft registration fee (tax), State telephone tax, Local telephone tax, Trailer registration fee (tax), Utility tax, Hazardous disposal fee (tax), Transportation tax, Storm water runoff fee (tax), Hotel room tax, Cell phone tax, and the most insidious of all...the hidden tax - inflation. And I'm quite sure I missed a lot of other taxes we are all subject to.

And again--you didn't answer my question. What responsibility does a government have to ensure that an individual's rights don't infringe on his fellow man or society as a whole?

For example--you mention the gas guzzler tax in your last post. Do you think it's a good idea to artificially raise the cost of gas to incentivize/subsidize industry to find other energy sources?