patrick.net

So - if we as a country "save" everyone from being unhappy, from being without, from being poor, from feeling left out of the American Dream, and give everyone everything they need at all times, BUT sink the country in the process - is that a good thing, or no?

Sheeeesh ! We've been around this too many times.

The people who don't pay taxes ( other than students ) have no significant effect on elections. Maybe this last time the election for president might have been effected a little more than usual by the votes of the disenfranchised, but that wasn't just because Obama is black, it's also because of the idiot we had last time ( maybe not quite as stupid as he seemed, just as Obama might not be quite as smart as he seems ).

I guess it could be argued that if the trend of recent decades continues and the wealth of our country becomes even more concentrated at the top, and while demographics continue to shift and whites become a minority ( but not a minority of the wealthy ), that it would certainly benefit the wealthy if only those who paid a lot in taxes could vote.

But as others have said, this would be the end of America as we know it, and not in a good way. The things you are afraid of are well protected as long as at least a significant majority can have a middle class life or better ( and no, I don't mean for free).

Honest Abe says

So - if we as a country “save” everyone from being unhappy, from being without, from being poor

Are you talking about the banks ?

Bankers do much more than vote. They spend tens of millions on lobbyists, maybe hundreds of millions on politicians.

IF you really want to change the US for the better, try to figure out how to turn that around, not to mention the advertising money that we will now see corporations spend on elections. Those forces are much more insidious than the ones you fear.

It's so insane as I really think about it. Are you for real ? Here in America, you are voicing fear of the influence of the poor ! I literally am laughing out loud as I contemplate the absurdity of it.

Honest Abe says

You say “Its simply not honest to claim that 50% of Americans don’t pay taxes”. Yet news headlines all over the place, read like this : Nearly half of U.S. households pay zero Federal Income tax.

You are the one who keeps saying "taxes" and "taxpayer" when you mean federal income tax only. If you don't know the difference then I certainly hope you aren't voting. I missed your response to my question. What is special about federal income tax vs all other taxes paid?

Nomograph says
Those crack-smoking welfare-momma hood rats generally don’t vote. They aren’t even registered, nor do they have any idea whatsoever about what candidate is promising to give who what.

But they all rushed to the polls for Obama. I wonder why. Probably the same reason why all dogs would rush to the polls if Snoopy were to run for president.

Vain says

Honest Abe says
Those crack-smoking welfare-momma hood rats generally don’t vote. They aren’t even registered, nor do they have any idea whatsoever about what candidate is promising to give who what.

But they all rushed to the polls for Obama. I wonder why. Probably the same reason why all dogs would rush to the polls if Snoopy were to run for president.

Lovely sentiment.

Just as an fyi--go to "real" America, as Palin calls it. The rural Midwest. You'll see a lot of people on welfare, but their drug of choice is meth, not crack. And they all vote Republican.

I did not make the comment: "Those crack-smoking welfare-momma hood rats - blah-blah-blah". That was someone else, NOT "Honest Abe".

So if we sink the country in an attempt to achieve Utopia for everyone, is that a good thing - or not?

Taxes and spending isn't what is doing this country in.

It's Greed, and vague laws and codes, where the most rigidly worded rules need be and fully enforced to the letter. I'm thinking 5 word phrases instead of 3000 page documents, is the only thing that could save this country.

You don't really think it took 3000 pages to craft the "Healthcare Reform" do you?
Those other 2800 pages were stipulations and loopholes for the corporations that spent enough to have lobbyist help them create that 3000 page legislation. That nobody ever read.

The poor have always been the Blight, the super rich like to demonize and call the ails of society.
When in reality corupt companies and government officials siphon of 10X more than they spend on the poor. For every $1 that makes into a Crackhead Welfare recipient. Some fat greedy bastard skimmed 10K off the tax roll, for $1,000 screws.

Its spending that is putting our country into the hole. I heard over the weekend that if EVERYTHING IN AMERICA WAS SOLD, and we taxed EVERYONE AT 100% - America still wouldn't have enough to pay for the unfunded liabilities and promises made by our pandering politicians.

Why do you suppose "the government" allowed those other 2,800 pages of stipulations and loopholes? What did they get out of it?

And can anyone really strengthen the poor by weakening the rich? Why punish success and reward failure? In the real world there are work horses and there are race horses. Darn it !! Some slim greedy bastard race horse skimmed $10K off the winnings while the work horse got nothing but oats. DAMN - ITS JUST NOT FAIR.

Most self adjusted adults realize that the world is not "fair". Some are smart, some are athletic, some are clever, some are inventors, some are business people, everyone is not the same and their incomes will not be the same. Utopia is an unrealistic goal. Especially when the quest of Utopia puts everyone at risk with the end result being EQUAL suffering. No thank you.

Honest Abe says

Its spending that is putting our country into the hole. I heard over the weekend that if EVERYTHING IN AMERICA WAS SOLD, and we taxed EVERYONE AT 100% - America still wouldn’t have enough to pay for the unfunded liabilities and promises made by our pandering politicians.

You must have heard that on AM radio. Because it's utterly ridiculous.

Honest Abe says

And can anyone really strengthen the poor by weakening the rich? Why punish success and reward failure? In the real world there are work horses and there are race horses. Darn it !! Some slim greedy bastard race horse skimmed $10K off the winnings while the work horse got nothing but oats. DAMN - ITS JUST NOT FAIR.
Most self adjusted adults realize that the world is not “fair”. Some are smart, some are athletic, some are clever, some are inventors, some are business people, everyone is not the same and their incomes will not be the same. Utopia is an unrealistic goal. Especially when the quest of Utopia puts everyone at risk with the end result being EQUAL suffering. No thank you.

You're missing the point. I don't care about fair. I don't care about Utopia. I care about the US being a strong, vibrant economy. And that doesn't happen when 0.5% of the people hold 80%+ of the wealth.

Honest Abe says

I did not make the comment: “Those crack-smoking welfare-momma hood rats - blah-blah-blah”. That was someone else, NOT “Honest Abe”.
So if we sink the country in an attempt to achieve Utopia for everyone, is that a good thing - or not?

Sorry honestabe. I corrected the quote. I messed it up while editing.

Vain, thanks.

Tatupu, you're right. And its the governments fault. May I explain why? Its government that should be regulated. Private business and people are regulated way too much already. Too much regulation KILLS COMPETITION. There are more than 100 Federal Regulatory agencies that have produced 73,000 pages of regulations - not including those set by state and local governments.

If government got out of the way, business could flourish again. For example: try getting a permit to operate a taxi cab (business) in New York City or a liquor license in downtown LA. The lack of availability and or the exorbitant cost eliminate most people seeking those opportunities. Competition is eliminated and wealth concentrates with those lucky enough to already have the licenses. Government is the reason wealth gets concentrated - which is why government should be regulated.

Honest Abe says

Ignorant, economically and financially illerate is no way to go through life. Constantly rooting for and supporting the wrong causes makes America weaker and more vulnerable.
You say “Its simply not honest to claim that 50% of Americans don’t pay taxes”. Yet news headlines all over the place, read like this : Nearly half of U.S. households pay zero Federal Income tax. Here are a variety of sources:
MSNBC.com 4-7-2010
USATODAY.com 4-7-2010
YahooFinance.com 4-5-2010
Tax Foundation.org 3-30 2010
CBSNEWS.com 4-15-2010
ETC.
The sources and content are not the “silly fictional scenario’s dreamed up by Fox Noise”…as you call it. Turn off your TV and start reading !!!

Oh, so you're only talking about Federal Income Taxes. Well you really should have specified what you meant by your exclusive definition of "taxpayer" since there are scads more taxes than Federal Income Tax. A whole bunch of fat cat rich people don't pay Federal Income Taxes either by keeping their losses here to deduct from their income and exporting their gains to foreign countries that don't tax their incomes to avoid paying taxes like a patriotic American citizen should. So don't just fault the poor who make too little to pay income taxes. I'm sure they'd trade places with the fat cats who use all the loop holes and who send their wealth earned here to foreign countries where it won't benefit anyone in the USA so they don't have to pay Federal Income Taxes.

Honest Abe says

Tatupu, you’re right. And its the governments fault. May I explain why? Its government that should be regulated. Private business and people are regulated way too much already. Too much regulation KILLS COMPETITION. There are more than 100 Federal Regulatory agencies that have produced 73,000 pages of regulations - not including those set by state and local governments.

How does government regulation of business lead to a concentration of wealth?

Nomograph says

Honest Abe says

ALL voting should be reserved for taxpayers… those who pay Federal Income Tax.

First, he wants to give the federal government control over the gold market. Now he advocates taking jurisdiction over suffrage away from the states and give that power to the federal government.
Just how big does this guy want the federal government to be?

Yeah, he sounds like one of those "liberals" who wants to kill "States' Rights" and enslave us all under a "Big Bad Federal Government."

Nomograph says

Honest Abe says

voting should be restricted to those who pay taxes.

I agree in principle. Someone who is neither landed nor a tax payer is not vested. People who are vested in society make much more prudent decisions than those who are not vested.
However, almost everyone who votes pays taxes, so Abe’s quibbling is for naught. Those crack-smoking welfare-momma hood rats generally don’t vote. They aren’t even registered, nor do they have any idea whatsoever about what candidate is promising to give who what.
It really won’t make a difference.

excellant post .... and this is probably why ACORN was founded (?)

Nomo - your post at 6:40 pm has my position mis-stated. I NEVER said I wanted to give the federal gov't contol over the gold market. And I NEVER said I advocated taking jurisdiction over sufferage away from the states and give that power to the federal goverment.

Government regulation eliminates competition by erecting barriers to entry, remember my examples of how difficult and expensive it is to get a liquor license in LA or a taxi cab license permit in New York City? Over time wealth gets concentrated in all types of business and industries (and the people who own them) due to government regulation and manipulation of the free market. Government intervention always distorts the market and as an indirect result the distribution of wealth gets distorted too.

I don't think Abe really advocates his thesis about voter's rights, it's just a way to rant about how he thinks this country is being destroyed by people who have no economic sense about the cost of what we want from government versus what taxpayers pay.

Also a way to bash liberals, that is, it's all part of a very vague way of justifying his feelings about who is at fault for everything that doesn't work in the U.S.. He occasionally acknowledges that there are flaws in government that aren't caused liberals who want "Utopia for everyone."

Marcus and Nomo, I used to have a hard time understanding liberal, progressive, do-gooder mentality, or what ever you call it. I have included a quote below that helped me understand your "logic". Now I understand the causes of your flawed logic.

In case you've never noticed, government has had an incomparable record of flawed analysis, failed solutions and destructive consequences. Yet liberals and liberal government proclaims itself as indispensable and presumes to regulate and administer our lives and economy, always for the worse. Government overestimation and extravagance, impaired judgement, distortions of fact, misunderstanding of cause and effect and resistance to learning from experience has put America at great risk. Except liberals think things are "just fine".

Here is why: "Liberals and liberal government is a study in the psychopathology and sociopathology of human nature. Liberal mentality and liberal government offers a standing invitation to ignore the realistic assessment of risk and the consequences of irrational decisions. The liberal agenda thrives on the dependency of people and encourages them to remain childlike and compliant, heedless to the implications of distorted thinking". The Psychological Causes of Political Madness, by Lyle Rossiter, M.D.

Now I understand.

Abe--

No offense, but can you argue your case without using strawmen? Because most posters here are intelligent enough to see right through them....

It doesn't matter who gets to vote if your the results of voting do not matter. Even if McCain won, I bet we would still be in the same pickle as we find ourselves today; we just have a different colored talking head to put a face on the problems we are facing.

"Permit me to issue and control the money of the nation and I care not who makes its laws." — Mayer Amschel Rothschild

Even if voting did matter, the sheeple are so asleep that the vote can easily be rigged with voting machines. And even when the scandal broke out, nary a whimper from the sheeple, even with the numerous people trying to put the word out about voting machines and their fairly easy hackability.

The sheeple are too easily distracted and divided on trivial "hot button" issues, race (e.g. illegal immigration), religion (e.g. abortion), and who gets the right to vote.

Stop debating the issue. It is pointless.

Tatupu, no offense, but now I understand the other sides "logic". Nevertheless - hackmaster is right on target, IMHO.

We are all self-made men, but only the successful ones admit it.

Honest Abe says

Tatupu, no offense, but now I understand the other sides “logic”.

I'm not sure what that means. Now you understand it? So, does that mean no more strawmen?

Honest Abe says

Ignorant, economically and financially illerate is no way to go through life.

"Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

-Dean Wormer, Faber College 1962

Honest Abe says

I heard over the weekend that if EVERYTHING IN AMERICA WAS SOLD, and we taxed EVERYONE AT 100% - America still wouldn’t have enough to pay for the unfunded liabilities and promises made by our pandering politicians.

You listen to stupid people.

double secret probation

hate to mix my movie metaphors, but I think we're gonna need a bigger boat...

"The emotional damage caused by the coercive State creates millions of damaged adults - many of whom become ardent followers. They are hurt and angry children in adult bodies searching for scapegoats and easy answers, stunted and confused minds easily led to servitude, unloved former children desperate to believe in the love of a father-figure Leader".

From: For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence, by Alice Miller.

Honest Abe says

The emotional damage caused by the coercive State creates millions of damaged adults - many of whom become ardent followers. They are hurt and angry children in adult bodies searching for scapegoats and easy answers, stunted and confused minds easily led to servitude, unloved former children desperate to believe in the love of a father-figure Leader”.

Again--seems to fit you Abe. Liberals are your scapegoat and Glenn Beck is your father figure leader...

Here is a translation of your juvenile response: I know you are but what am I?

Liberals are not a scapegoat. A scapegoat is an animal, person or group that bears the blame for the errors of others. Others are not causing the errors. Liberals are causing the errors all by themselves (well, with some assistance from the Republicans).

In case you haven't noticed, liberals are the ones who are "leading" our country towards socialism, collectivism, big bloated centralized government, involuntary servitude and the like. Things you seem to be okay with. Normal human beings do not rationally give up their freedom.

Honest Abe says

Here is a translation of your juvenile response: I know you are but what am I?

Time after time you've posted on this forum, dissing on the rest of us. Your message has been pretty much, "I know you are, but what am I?" So why are you pissed when someone says it to you?

Who's pissed? I'm just astounded by your foolish perception that providing for every one's material welfare and health care, protecting everyone's self-esteem, correcting all social and political disadvantages, the elimination all class distinctions and the leveling of every concievable "playing field" is governments REAL job.

If government actually accomplishes what you desire, we will all awaken to a communist existence some day. An existence where we are all EQUALLY impoverished. Just say "NO" to a "1984" type existence. Instead, fight for freedom and liberty for all.

I do not have a hard stance on this idea, at least in the exact form that it is presented here. I would, however, point out that many who like to stress that everyone should be allowed to vote would, in fact, probably agree with the current limitations that are already in place. E.g.: Felons cannot vote. Children cannot vote. Etc. So obviously "everyone" cannot vote.

I personally feel that a system that weights the value of a person's vote has some merit to it. E.g., good arguments might be made for age, military service, taxpayer status, and education level (or even IQ). Of course, some may suggest this is "racist" or worse, but it's really just a matter of what is measured, and what weights are assigned (as opposed to the current can vote/can't vote system).

Then, of course, there is the very real concern of the integrity of the voting/counting system itself.

what is the reason for removing a felons vote?

Bap33 says

what is the reason for removing a felons vote?

To punish them forever.

While I do think that right to vote is taken for granted too often, I still feel it's value is great enough that one who has served his time should be granted that right again.

I would like to see some type of voting rule that kept those who rely on wealth transfers for income from voting (while on the take + 1 full year after stopping). That would help avoid votes-for-welfare, wouldn't it? And I do not just mean low-income welfare takers. I mean farmers and gov workers and teachers too .... if your wealth comes from a taxpayer base it would be a little bit safer to disallow you to vote ... wouldn't it? Maybe the votes can be valued out based on voter's income source? Just tossing ideas out.

Bap33 says

Just tossing ideas out

No offense, but this is happy talk. Our voting system is fine, except I worry about fraud.

What about people who want taxes lowered ? It's somewhat subjective. That is, it's a good thing if taxes are too high, and a bad thing if taxes are too low ( see laffer curve). But people don't know where the correct optimal level is (relative to govt needs, the defiicit, and economic growth).

And yet lowering taxes is ALWAYS popular. When someone votes for lower taxes, they are voting for more money in their pocket. Gosh, is there some way that we can say that if taxes are already as low as we can afford for them to be, that then voting for a tax decrease is illegal ?

we could ... right after all forms of welfare that are funded by forced wealth transfers are ended.

marcus - that was embarrassing. From where did you glean this monumentally delusional point of view on taxes? And how does your type resolve themselves with the uncomfortable idea that we became the most powerful and productive nation in the history of mankind without any income tax whatsoever? It doesn't matter what you may personally "feel" - you simply cannot defend such a phenomenally inane statement as "taxes are already as low as we can afford them to be" in the face of this fact, nor with even the most basic knowledge of human history.

I am, however, not surprised to hear this sadness from you after your mindless defense of 'Nomograph' yesterday.

I said that people don't know what the optimal level is. That doesn't mean that there isn't an optimal level.

And the last sentence was meant to be facetious (AND please note and comprehend the word "IF" ). My point being that you can't outlaw people voting for taxes being higher because of self interest anymore than you can outlaw people voting for taxes to be lower for reasons of self interest.

Some might say that lower taxes are always in our self interest. But that is like saying having lower bills is always good. So ?

I at least did try to comprehend ( and I am capable of comprehending ) what you were saying about the Federal Reserve. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, and that you therefore chose to totally misrepresent what I said above. Maybe consider reading it again.