patrick.net

theoakman says

Keynesian theory requires that the government spend the money because they don’t trust the general public enough to spend it for them to increase aggregate demand.

And I agree with this.

Good Keynesian spending ends up creating actual wealth that accretes to future earnings.

Just mailing money out to people results in empty consumption of consumer goods at best and higher living expenses (land/rents) at worse.

I recall plenty of Keynesian economists throwing a fit when George Bush implemented his own Keynesian experiment mailing everyone a $300 check.

Fat lot of good that did in the long run.

Troy says

theoakman says

Keynesian theory requires that the government spend the money because they don’t trust the general public enough to spend it for them to increase aggregate demand.

And I agree with this.
Good Keynesian spending ends up creating actual wealth that accretes to future earnings.
Just mailing money out to people results in empty consumption of consumer goods at best and higher living expenses (land/rents) at worse.
I recall plenty of Keynesian economists throwing a fit when George Bush implemented his own Keynesian experiment mailing everyone a $300 check.
Fat lot of good that did in the long run.

This country hasn't seen good spending in 50 years. It's a pipe dream with this Congress. The stimulus package was nothing but a bunch of subsidies to politically connected corporations and universities.

(never mind)

This is hardly QEII.

They're just staying they'll keep the balance sheet where it is, instead of letting it slowly wind down.

If you were looking for QEII, this certainly is not it. Rolling over payments into new debt purchases has been the policy of the Fed since... uh.... 1913.

Hey, maybe that inflation will kick in next year?

Nomograph says

theoakman says

The stimulus package was nothing but a bunch of subsidies to politically connected universities.

I think you’re just bitter because you didn’t finish. Weren’t you blaming Jon Corzine for all your problems last year?

Uhh, no. I successfully defended 2 weeks ago. You really are incapable of having a mature argument though. You always try to make everything personal. Thanks for trying though.

Btw...I'm not bitter. You know how much of that stimulus money went straight into my pocket for working part time?

tts says

No true Keynesian could back the gov.’s actions at this point nor have any faith in Bernanke’s or the Fed’s competence given their actions both recently and over the last decade or so

I don't know if I'm a "true Keynesian" or not. Is there a test? And I'm not a huge fan of Bernake either.

But you were right in your other post. The problem isn't the government's actions now--the problem was what the government did from 2000-2008.

Part of being a Keynesian is following the "run a surplus in the good times" part that everyone hates, if you don't do that part but spend spend spend all the time, then no you're not a Keynesian.

Also while the current gov. didn't start the mess they sure aren't helping, and that is just as bad. All they want to do is put the figurative band aide on the bullet wound, none of them will do what is really necessary.

tts says

Part of being a Keynesian is following the “run a surplus in the good times” part that everyone hates, if you don’t do that part but spend spend spend all the time, then no you’re not a Keynesian.

Exactly. Do you think this is a "good time"? Of course not.

tts says

All they want to do is put the figurative band aide on the bullet wound, none of them will do what is really necessary.

OK--what is really necessary?

From Nomo's linked article:
"San Diego County couples who want to join the state's 18,000 gay and lesbian couples in wedlock can now do so by setting an appointment with county officials and following the routine steps that heterosexuals do."

So, 18,000 couples are already married and the world is still turning? The government still operates, and mormons continue to send their missionaries to spread the word and sign people up... maybe it doesn't make a difference to anyone else, except the parties involved.

Maybe it is personal in nature, and not a political issue after all...

tts says

While I would agree that the tax system needs to be reformed it alone will not fix the mess. You could tax income at 100% rate and it still wouldn’t be enough to pay down the debt. We’re going to have to reform the entitlement spending (ie. SS and Medicare), and by reform I mean institute all sorts of stuff like rationing, means tests, and flat out cuts. We’re also going to have to massively cut spending on our military.”

Well, no true Keynesian would agree with you there. Cutting spending during bad times is not usually good policy....

Nomograph says

theoakman says

I successfully defended 2 weeks ago

That’s great, congratulations! Will you be taking a post-doc somewhere? I would suggest something different and marketable, perhaps biofuels or alternative energy research. This is the time to change research areas if you want.
theoakman says

You really are incapable of having a mature argument though.

I really can’t disagree with you there.

I'm teaching high school again this year. I also retained a part time position at the University as an instrument tech. I don't plan on doing a post-doc. I can't work for a low salary now that I'm married. Also, I'm kind of geographically limited to the NJ/Philly area. I'm looking to go into Alternative Energy development at GE.

Can't nominate yourself? Okay -

(9) Nomograph - MD with a snarky outlook who consistently speaks his own mind, regardless of the reception he may get.

(10) Mikey, a very punny guy.

tatupu70 says

tts says

While I would agree that the tax system needs to be reformed it alone will not fix the mess. You could tax income at 100% rate and it still wouldn’t be enough to pay down the debt. We’re going to have to reform the entitlement spending (ie. SS and Medicare), and by reform I mean institute all sorts of stuff like rationing, means tests, and flat out cuts. We’re also going to have to massively cut spending on our military.”

Well, no true Keynesian would agree with you there. Cutting spending during bad times is not usually good policy….

That's not true. There are a ton of super talented scientists and engineers that could be adding to the productive capacity of the US in private jobs that are currently employed by the military. Unless we plan on selling weapons to the rest of the world, we would be better off employing those individuals in jobs that add to the productive capacity of the economy.

In a forum with posters that lack balance, Pkennedy is very balanced and gets it.

I nominate SF ace. Very well rounded and has knowledge in just about everything discussed here. Optimistic thinker but still realistic.

theoakman says

That’s not true. There are a ton of super talented scientists and engineers that could be adding to the productive capacity of the US in private jobs that are currently employed by the military. Unless we plan on selling weapons to the rest of the world, we would be better off employing those individuals in jobs that add to the productive capacity of the economy.

Agreed--but before they could find those new jobs that add to the productive capacity, they'd be unemployed. And that would be bad in the short term. That's why it's better to make the cuts during good times when jobs are available.

How's about Knewbetter and Techgromit? They've been here forever, too. They're fair in their assessments and can respectfully disagree with you - or me.

Please add to Nomo's something 'bout how his snarky comments has caused me to sneeze various liquids onto my keyboard. (I really like the word "snarky," can ya tell?)

Will there be an awards ceremony? Can I bring my pistol?

tatupu70 says

theoakman says

That’s not true. There are a ton of super talented scientists and engineers that could be adding to the productive capacity of the US in private jobs that are currently employed by the military. Unless we plan on selling weapons to the rest of the world, we would be better off employing those individuals in jobs that add to the productive capacity of the economy.

Agreed–but before they could find those new jobs that add to the productive capacity, they’d be unemployed. And that would be bad in the short term. That’s why it’s better to make the cuts during good times when jobs are available.

So, you give them their severance and let them find a new job.

Shouldn't Mikey be in the hall of shame? He's just a serial punster who likes to milk it. I know it sounds corny, but I guess that's Life.

PS: Don't forget that Ray guy. He wants everything to be all right.

Who gets the remote is still a war, regardless of orientation. Things do change after sanctioned marriage.
The kink factor evaporates after nuptials, gay or straight, and few survive the Cinderella syndrome when the white picket fence fades with familiarity.
The trouble starts even before the rice is thrown.
Male and female is a bad mix all around, except perhaps, in the animal world, where sex leads to much less drama.

There was a guy named Surfer-X who posted quite often in the old days. He has a penchant, a flare shall we say, for profanity.

theoakman says

So, you give them their severance and let them find a new job.

Meanwhile the economy goes further down the dumps and more people get laid off. Which in turn lowers your tax revenue and actually increases the deficit. No thank you.

mikey says

Shouldn’t Mikey be in the hall of shame? He’s just a serial punster who likes to milk it. I know it sounds corny, but I guess that’s Life.
PS: Don’t forget that Ray guy. He wants everything to be all right.

See number ten, dude. I nominated you, 'twas a nominal effort.

tatupu70 says

theoakman says

So, you give them their severance and let them find a new job.

Meanwhile the economy goes further down the dumps and more people get laid off. Which in turn lowers your tax revenue and actually increases the deficit. No thank you.

Isn't that what unemployment benefits are for? They would be better off getting paid to look for a new job than getting paid to develop missiles.

I like the list as revised in Nomo's last post. And I remember Surfer-X from my lurker days. He could be on that list too.

marcus says

Most in need of ignoring the other: Ray and Ellie

It's been about a week now. where ya been?

Coming to a television near you very soon: "Gay Divorce Court"

I can't wait. :)

elliemae says

It’s been about a week now. where ya been?

Well done. Hope the withdrawal symptoms haven't been too bad.

lol, u left out loads of important people during the earlier days, HARM, PeterP, Facereality, Marinisprime, FakeP, etc... It's too bad they don't post here anymore

Didn't Surfer-X bought a house? No surprise that he don't visit this forum anymore.

What about Shyfire (was that her name?) who lived in Florida, sold right as the bubble burst and her sale nearly fell thru. Moved to the woods with her man to enjoy the peace... and Bobby80... and Frodo, dear frodo.

marcus says

Well done. Hope the withdrawal symptoms haven’t been too bad.

That's what she said!

(as I said before in another post, I feel like Michael Scott from the tv show "the office," where he can't resist saying "that's what she said!" and the company insists that he not say it anymore because it's sexist. He nearly explodes).

elliemae says

mikey says

Shouldn’t Mikey be in the hall of shame? He’s just a serial punster who likes to milk it. I know it sounds corny, but I guess that’s Life.
PS: Don’t forget that Ray guy. He wants everything to be all right.

See number ten, dude. I nominated you, ’twas a nominal effort.

Silly, Ellie, that's the hall of a Fame, not shame. Still, it is an unexpected honor and I must thank all the little people behind the scenes who worked their fingers to the bone for me day after day with little recognition for their efforts. Bless them all, every one.
Please pardon me while I fetch a Kleenex to soak up my happy tears.
I need a few quiet moments to appreciate my good fortune. You understand.

oops - my bad. it's these f-in' boney fingers, get in the way.

tts says

You’re right it usually isn’t, but this is not a usual recession we’re going through. This is a financial crisis worse than what we went through in the 70’s. It took the Volcker FED years and and a forced double dip recession and rates of around 20% to fix that mess. It’ll take far more to fix this one.

I agree that it will take a lot to heal the economy--I just disagree with your prescription...

elliemae says

That’s what she said!
(as I said before in another post, I feel like Michael Scott from the tv show “the office,” where he can’t resist saying “that’s what she said!” and the company insists that he not say it anymore because it’s sexist. He nearly explodes

That episode was just on TBS and it is by far the best of the series. Although any episode with Packer is a good one in my book.

That is fair. After all, plenty of people have claimed "this time its different" and been wrong before. The thing that really frustrates me is that we'd probably both agree that things are far more messed up then you're hearing the gov. or any mainstream economist say, we'd probably both disagree as to just how bad things really are.

If we can't even agree on what the facts are how are we supposed to communicate at all?

This isn't directed at you but I see this as a major problem not just on this forum but also with Americans in general right now. We can't agree on what is right or wrong, and many of the progressive reforms that are probably needed get shunned as "socialist" or even "communist" even though most people seem to hardly understand what those terms mean any more. Lots of parroting of the talking points by supporters of both political parties right now. No true Progressives can get elected as long as that is true, so even if you wanted to primary a truly good politician against the current Dem/Rep incumbent you'd have no chance of winning.

The present from Packer was good too.

marcus says

Most in need of ignoring the other: Ray and Ellie

Give me a hint. Who is "Ellie?"

At the end of the day, there is very little the Fed can do to stimulate the economy. They're already at 0%. They can throw money at banks but the banks are scared of lending and businesses and consumers are scared or borrowing. Bernanke does not have a helicopter. He cannot conjure money out of thin air - only Congress can do that. Only Congress can decide to drop money from helicopters. If they're going to do it they better get on it - I have a feeling come November the Dems aren't going to control both houses. That will make it a lot harder to pass more stimulus measures.

I'm ok with the idea of stimulus on its face but the money needs to go to something useful like doing research or building "useful" infrastructure (not resurfacing perfectly good roads in the middle of nowhere). Unfortunately the Republicrats only enrich themselves and their friends.

But what about the early 2005-2006 crew, such as RandyH, DinOR, OO, HARM, Jimbo, EBGuy (he is still here), Allah, Astrid, PeterP (RayAmerica but with a brain, just kidding Peter :)), nuttyneutron, sqt, Micahel Holliday, KurtS, Different Sean, Zephyr, FormerApartmentBroker, Skibum, StuckInBA, SP, Vicente, Claire, HeadSet, Brand, and many others that I should recall at the top of my head. I'm apologizing already for the several worthy not mentioned (yet).

And then there are slightly newer people like The Original Bankster, Malcom, pkowen, sybrib, Simchaland, Kevin, Troy, .. [more to come].

I'm talking about people who were around while there were still moderators/threadmasters (I forget the correct term). And the forum was not full of right-wing goons and free-for-all thread privileges. Those were the days, I tell you :-).

I'm glancing through some early thread and updating the list above.