patrick.net

marcus says

world government may be inevitable

Mo' money mo' problems I think.

Before world gov't would have to come integration of Canada, US, and Mexico. The retarded 30% of this country has been made deathly afraid of Canadian socialism, and of course we already have too many Mexicans here for their taste.

Just like there is a "Former Soviet Union" I think it's more likely there will be a "Former United States", with the Bible Belt being the Ukraine, the West/Midwest being Russia, and the East being the Baltic states and regaining sovereignty.

It is fairly typical that those that advocate fair and equal trade policies are labeled “isolationists.” This is unfortunate, but admittedly effective because once that label is applied, it closes all meaningful debate. I don’t know of a single, credible person that is advocating isolationism when it comes to trade. If you do, please name him or her.

As far as a world government is concerned, its creation and the policies enacted as a result would be anything but peaceful. Imagine the ultimate, mega, centralized government that mandates, by force, conformity across the board. Marx & Engels advocated this in their political philosophy, which of course was in fact implemented in practice by Lenin/Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Castro, etc. resulting in the elimination of millions of people by state certified murder. There is absolutely nothing in history to illustrate that any group of human beings, let alone elitists, yielding the unlimited power of a totalitarian centralized government would result in anything peaceful. Whenever totalitarianism has been implemented, no matter how seemingly well intentioned, the heads of the non conformists have always “sneezed in the basket," as further illustrated by the French Revolution.

Troy ... you might not be too far off in your Balkanization theory. A top Russian political scientist, not too far back, predicted the USA would in fact break up into regions along the lines of the Balkans. Not too long ago, such a theory would have been considered completely whacko. I don't think it's all that crazy of a thing to ponder now. Personally, I have never seen such stark division in this country. I think the case can be made that we are approaching the same fault lines that preceded the Civil War, possibly even worse.

RayAmerica says

ellie …. for a change, instead of making snide, personal remarks, etc., comment specifically on where I am wrong in the following...

elliemae says

RayAmerica says
elliemae says

Life isn’t all doom & gloom. You need to meet more people. There’s such thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

RayAmerica says

Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”
As I said before, you need to meet more people.

RayAmerica says

Something has made you bitter, maybe that’s it.

RayAmerica says

Are you trying to tell me that this is what “hope & change” is all about?

RayAmerica says

I honestly don’t know what point you were attempting to make. I’m sure there is one, but I couldn’t find it

RayAmerica says

I’m offering a spell check service for Patrick.net and am hoping to sign up my first client.

RayAmerica says

I like the part too about “stop complaining.” There’s way too much complaining out there, particularly from the left.

RayAmerica says

I do not know one single person that is optimistic about the future of this country.

RayAmerica says

Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

My remarks aren't meant to be snide. Your message leads one to believe that the US is going to hell in a handbasket and that there's nothing to look forward to. You state your disdain with patnet readers with comments such as "Some of you people on your best day are way worse than Dr. Laura on her worst day, IMO. " Yet you're still here, so you must either respect us or have nowhere else to go.

Either way, it appears that there's no positivity in your life and you're waiting for the end of the world. I'd recommend taking a walk in the sunshine, sitting out under the stars, playing a game of touch football, dipping your toes into the ocean/pool/stream... Life is too short to be as miserable as you purport yourself to be. And I mean this all in the most constructive of ways. I work with the elderly, and those people who were miserable all their lives are merely better at it when they get old.

simchaland says

Rayray is just throwing out chum here folks. There’s nothing to see here. Move along…

Your chum, ellie.

elliemae says

You state your disdain with patnet readers with comments such as “Some of you people on your best day are way worse than Dr. Laura on her worst day, IMO. ”

I should have learned my lesson a long time ago. Humor is an orphan when it comes to you.

Ellie .... why am I not surprised? I challenged you to specifically address the points that I made in my post. Instead, you ignored them, and spent all your time copying and pasting completely out of context posts that I have made that are irrelevant to our discussion. This seems to be a favorite trick of yours, being that you use it so often. So be it. I interpret your refusal to address the points made by me as either a lack of ability on your part to effectively do so, or, your agreement with said points. Either way, I guess, I win. Thanks so much for playing. It’ been fun.

elliemae says

Either way, it appears that there’s no positivity in your life and you’re waiting for the end of the world. I’d recommend taking a walk in the sunshine, sitting out under the stars, playing a game of touch football, dipping your toes into the ocean/pool/stream… Life is too short to be as miserable as you purport yourself to be. And I mean this all in the most constructive of ways. I work with the elderly, and those people who were miserable all their lives are merely better at it when they get old.

Thanks for the free psycho analysis and therapeutic advice, but, happily, I don't need it. Personally, I am a realist and am very content in that realistic world view. I not only have a realistic hope in this world from a personal perspective, but in the one to come. How about you? What is the reason for the hope that lies within you? Would you mind telling me?

RayAmerica says

As far as a world government is concerned, its creation and the policies enacted as a result would be anything but peaceful

I didn't say I was for world government soon. I just said I think it is inevitable. It might not be that far off. Maybe just a few generations.

As for how peaceful it will be ? The transition could be tough. This country came about with a certain lack of peace, with the British, the French and with what is described by some as the genocide of native Americans. But what we have now is not totalitarian, it's a collection of states under the umbrella of a federal government.

Let's see where the more modern experiment of the European union goes.

RayAmerica says

Lenin/Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Castro

I don't claim to have a sound argument for it. It is an example of me doing the "I feel it in my gut" kind of thinking when I say that I believe a world government is inevitable. It is sort of a science fiction topic. Speculation. But it is also optimistic really. Let's face it we (humanity) are still somewhat young. All the land has been accounted for, but there is still positioning for natural resources. We're coming to the scary realization, that even though everyone in the world should have the kind of life we have here in the US, that in reality, the earth probably can't support typical average american levels of consumption for 7 billion people, or more.

By the way, why is it that in this country, one state never invaded another for it's gold, or for it's oil ?

Troy says

Just like there is a “Former Soviet Union” I think it’s more likely there will be a “Former United States”, with the Bible Belt being the Ukraine, the West/Midwest being Russia, and the East being the Baltic states and regaining sovereignty

I don't know Troy. I respect your intelligence and enjoy your posts, but this is crazy talk.

If it get's close let me know. I hope I can move to the richest or best region before everything blows up.

No way, if even one state was breaking off, say Texas, that might be enough to wake us up to finally reform our government.

CBOEtrader says

Does this mean you are going to stop voting for the Dems? Awesome! To me, it looks like the endgame for both Dems and Repubs is fascism…but no need to nit pick.

If the Democratic Party was actually a Liberal party then I'd disagree with you. Lately it seems that both parties are right of center. Therefore the end game for both of our corrupt major parties is fascism. And we're going there fast.

I see a dick-tator in chief, with his armed thugs, all wearing a cresent moon patch, watching us board the train to the dregs. If that is fascism, then we agree.

marcus says

that might be enough to wake us up to finally reform our government.

Government isn't the problem, people are the problem. I didn't mean to say that the division of the US is likely, just more likely than being subsumed into a global government.

Perhaps *both* would happen tho. If the current system can't move itself to restore the 1993 top marginal rates, I think this political failure would augur a future of getting pretty squishy economically, best case being a Japanese-level circle-jerk debt-to-GDP ratio, worst case a Treasury debt default singularity that I can't see beyond.

20% of this country are Tea Party twats, ~40% are Christian end-timers -- we're talking tens of millions of idiots here. They are defective and they tend to pass their affliction on to their children.

There is no media voice advocating anything intelligent, economics-wise. Krugman might come the closest, but I haven't seen anything from him that goes beyond just kicking the can down the road.

Nobody understands economics in this country; there's a range of beliefs from Mises through Mankiw to Keynes but it's all bullshit.

I may be wrong, but my reading of this chart

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CMDEBT

is telling me we've got a pain train coming and things are going to go centrifugal not centripetal.

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

RayAmerica says

I should have learned my lesson a long time ago. Humor is an orphan when it comes to you.

In order to qualify as humor, it must be funny. Attacking people because they disagree with your point of view simply isn't funny. Perhaps you should identify your jokes, then we'll have an easier time recognizing them.

RayAmerica says

I challenged you to specifically address the points that I made in my post.

You didn't challenge, you demanded that I do so. Your opinion that you've "won" simply because I don't stoop to your level is simply your interpretation that this is a competition. Life isn't a competition, rayray. At least mine isn't.

RayAmerica says

Instead, you ignored them, and spent all your time copying and pasting completely out of context posts that I have made that are irrelevant to our discussion.

There was no discussion, just your pontificating to an anonymous audience.

RayAmerica says

I not only have a realistic hope in this world from a personal perspective, but in the one to come.

You have another perspective coming? That would be most refreshing.

RayAmerica says

What is the reason for the hope that lies within you? Would you mind telling me?

I'm an optimist. I see the glass as close to full - and enjoy my life. I'm not a self-righteous victim of an oppressive world. Now it's time for you to attack me personally. Kinda funny, considering that we've never met.

...moving on... yawn

[wiping tears from eyes]
It's funny because it's true...

Jimmy Fallon, I thought Fallon was part of that SNL crack pot History making machine.
Yeah the not ready for prime time players, aren't ready for political pontifications either.
Where's Tina Fey, what that Bitch aint got no good one liners or a snappy Zinger about our Commander and Cheese?
She can see Political candidates from her house for Christ sakes.

I still like Obama. He's definitely got a hard job cleaning up the wreckage of the Bush years.

Nomograph says

If you want to know my opinion about a particular policy or program, just ask.

Do you support the private-public business partnership known as the Federal Reserve?
Do you support "central banks" in general?
Do you believe central banks manipulation of interest rates is beneficial to the majority or a minority?
Do you support the secrecy under which central banks operate?
Do you support fractional reserve banking?
Do you support expansion of government into health care and insurance?
Do you support the American military presence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, Germany, the Philippines, South Korea, etc... (130 countries in all)
Do you support the Patriot Act?
Do you support the bailouts?
Do you support the "too big to fail" theory?
Do you support the "war on drugs"?
Do you support the Kyoto treaty?
Do you support NAFTA?
Do you support the income tax?
Do you support an open border policy or should we restrict who is allowed to immigrate and emigrate?
Do you support government subsidies of housing?
Do you support government subsidies of agriculture?
Do you support government subsidies in the form of food stamps?
Do you support government subsidies of unemployment?
Do you support minimum wage laws?
Do you support Guantanimo Bay "enemy combatant" detention center?
Do you believe it is the right of the majority to take away the rights of the minority?
Do you believe that any person has the right to know and judge or even restrict what Americans do in the privacy of their own homes?
Do you support the government subsidies of "higher education"?
Do you support State/Federal/Municipal Employee Unions?

The funniest thing about these jokes is that only one of them was actually made by the person it's being attributed to.

Though that should be obvious, since most of the people on that list don't make jokes that lame (except for Jay Leno, who hasn't said anything funny in 20 years).

Central banks are not a "leftist" thing.

Fractional reserve lending is a fundamental reality in any financial system.

I support expansion of government into health care and insurance. Such a system worked very well for me when I lived in Japan, much better than the alleged free market system we have now, with its two duopolies, Wellpoint and KP taking their skim for f-all. Government single payer works great in Canada, Australia, NZ, and the Eurosocialist nations, too.

Foreign occupations are not a leftist thing.

PATRIOT Act is not a leftist thing.

Bailouts / "Too big to fail" were not a leftist thing.

"War on Drugs" is not a leftist thing.

Kyoto Protocol on Global Warming is a leftist thing and I fully support it. Better safe than sorry in this respect -- "The Tragedy of the Commons" is not a fictional story.

NAFTA is not a leftist thing, it was initiated by GHWB and handed off to Clinton.

Income tax is not a leftist thing per se. All 3 major candidates for President in 1912 supported the 16th Amendment -- Taft, Wilson, and Roosevelt. While there are better tax regimes, a progressive income tax with redistributive spending serves to limit the unhealthy concentration of wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands so I support it.

Limiting immigration is a leftist thing. It's the pro-business conservatives who want cheap labor in this country. There is no easy answer on this question. We need and profit from the cheap labor, but we want to send them back when we don't need their labor. This is somewhat odd and impractical. Libertarians believe in open borders, I think that is the future but we're going to need a lot of adjustments to get there.

As for gummint subsidies in general, they are generally bad. But the alternative is arguably worse in some cases. So there you are. I am strongly against housing subsidies, government (or some nice non-profit, take your pick) should be operating housing for poor people who can't hack it in the real world.

I see no problem with minimum wage laws, though they are set too low to accomplish anything.

Guantanamo is not a leftist thing.

I believe the majority can take away the rights of the minority with due process. No right exists in a vacuum. Wear your damn seatbelt Mr Galt. But I believe that which has no side effects outside the home is not in the public interest to regulate, yes.

I fully support government subsidized higher education for I believe everyone should have the opportunity to become, and remain, the most productive a citizen they can be, without regard to ability to pay. I believe this should extend to subsidized local transportation and health care too.

I do not support gov't unions as they are constituted now. They're part of the problem not part of the solution. The more power we give to the state the more power gov't unions have over us. This is bad.

10oz, these are fake attributions.

Patrick, not just a hard job, impossible job.

American households owed $8.7T at the end of 2002.

2003: $9.8T (+$1.1T)
2004: $10.6T (+1.2T)
2005: $12.2T (+1.6T)
2006: $13.4T (+1.2T)
2007: $14.4T (+1.0T) ⬅ peak debt
2008: $14.3T
2009: $14.1T

To put things in perspective, mailing a $1000 gift card to every household in the US every month would be LESS a stimulative than 2004-2007 Bush Debt boom time.

This is pretty clear to me but I don't see this mentioned in economic talk, even Krugman misses mentioning it when important.

they are semi-funny, tho.

agree with the Leno statement. I saw him in concert at Caesar's Palace, it was two hours of my life I'll never get back.

Nomo,

I agree with the vast majority of your responses. I would appreciate some clarification of your thoughts on a progressive income tax though.

Nomograph says

Yes. I support a strongly progressive income tax as the only proven system to delay extreme wealth concentration and subsequent economic and civil upheaval. I also support a strong inheritance tax to delay the formation of an aristocracy. Notice I use the words “delay” in both instances.

The way I see it, the federal income tax results in the bloated central government. A bloated central government breeds an aristocracy. The super rich use the federal government to entrench themselves into oligopolies (see health insurance industry, auto industry), to increase the barriers to entry for smaller (future) competitors, and use public funds as a private source of revenue padding (financial, health care, energy, military industrial, etc).

http://mises.org/etexts/rootofevil.asp

I think we should 1)eliminate all federal employment taxes, 2)eliminate all federal capital gains taxes, 3)implement a national consumption tax, 4) enforce a strict constitutional limit on central government powers, 5) enforce strict anti-trust laws--no company should ever become too big to fail 6)allow states to implement whatever they like, such as employment taxes, capital gains taxes, social programs, wealth distribution programs, or a more free-market economy as its residents choose.

elliemae says

Now it’s time for you to attack me personally.

I asked you for the reason of your personal "hope" and you interpret that as a personal "attack." Thanks for doing your part to keep this discourse on a mature, intelligent level.

I still like Obama. He’s definitely got a hard job cleaning up the wreckage of the Bush years.

Very funny. In fact, it gets my award for the funniest line on this thread.

Troy says

Central banks are not a “leftist” thing.

no one said they were but thanks for the straw man post

It's cheap for two reasons.
First off Asian markets owners typically try to forge relationships with their patrons.
If they can get something at a decent price, they typically pass the savings on.

The second reason is people aren't stupid. One day there's a 50 sq mile plume of oil 1500 feet thick, the next day it's reported that it's all gone. People are already concerned about mercury poisoning from the seafood, before the spill. People are doing with out seafood for a while, until what ever they put in the water to make that big oil plume dissapear is more understood. Or the missing Oil plume is discovered. People aren't stupid, just because the Gulf has a different name, it's the same Ocean as the waters off of the coast of Maine.

Good on ya for shopping local mom and pops. Screw the company store.

AdHominem says

Do you support government subsidies in the form of food stamps?
Do you support government subsidies of unemployment?
Do you support minimum wage laws?

Yes and only after the Government has made due diligence to make sure our food supply isn't gamed.
I mean if the Government is already guaranteeing farmers crops and they are being paid to produce. Then Food Commodities should be taxed 80% to offset the hardship and help pay
food stamps and hardships.
It makes no sense. Investors take a beating in other markets so they go to commodities to only to hedge but recoup their losses. They invest in things like Wheat and Pork Bellies, which raises the prices of these commodities before the market has dictated the demand. which sets the price the Government will guarantee. Then to make sure that the demand for the supply is met. Our Government turns around and subsidizes those who can't afford these artificially inflated prices.

The Government is there for reasons, and those reasons aren't for a Long Tail of Fraud and deceit to game. The Original reason was to protect the Farmer during bad growing seasons and drought. Or else it would be easy to wipe them out in one or two growing seasons. Of course we were more into Domestic consumption then. And didn't classify fresh edible local sourced produce, as "Organic" "Green" and "Whole food" I think we called it the Tomatoes stand where you bought a sack full of stuff of $4.00.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Do you support the private-public business partnership known as the Federal Reserve?
Do you support “central banks” in general?

Within limits.

Good, I'm glad you understand the need to limit Feds power. I'm sorry you support it at all seeing as how the Fed is essentially the unelected branch of government that has grown in power and scope to the point where the mere words of Ben Bernanke can strike fear in the markets and congress. It has failed to stabilize prices and destroyed the purchasing power of the dollar. Furthermore as the power of government grows, the risk of abuse of that power grows at an even greater rate.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Do you believe central banks manipulation of interest rates is beneficial to the majority or a minority?

Sometimes both, sometimes neither. Historically, without a central bank interest rates tend to be around 20-30% for most people from private lenders (i.e. loan sharks, which is the only place most citizens could borrow money).

Since lending and borrowing go hand in hand when the market can know that money supply is restricted and stable, high interest rates are not bad. When risk is high, high interest rates encourage savings and help steer investments into lower risk ventures. In general, central banking was invented by the elites for the elites. Any benefit to the working class has been temporary and offset by the increasing wealth disparity between the working class and the elites.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the secrecy under which central banks operate?

Loaded question with a presupposed conclusion. Rephrase around a specific program or policy.

The meetings of the Federal Reserve, FOMC, plunge protection team, Presidents working group on Financial markets etc.. are not accessible to the public. The FED won't even reveal who got what as part of its bailout programs. The Fed can swap US dollars for other currencies, gold etc... with central banks and such around the world and never reveals what it is doing nor allows an audit of its activities (not even after the fact). Do you support this secret manipulation of domestic and world markets and currencies?

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Do you support fractional reserve banking?

To some degree, but much less that we currently have. Leverage can be extremely enabling when used judiciously.

Agreed. Unfortunately the opposite is true as well. The elites are much better at using leverage than the average Joe, so fractional reserve banking tends to enable them at everyone else's expense as mentioned above. Furthermore, fractional reserve banking constitutes fraud (most people believe that their checking/savings account money is safe and can be demanded at any time).

As a libertarian, we need not be arbitrarily against all regulation. However when we see that the Federal Reserve is giving power and leverage to a powerful minority at the expense of the vulnerable majority we have crossed the line.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Do you support expansion of government into health care and insurance?

Single-payer health care like EU countries have is far more efficient than a for-profit insurance based system. I support a single-payer system. I do not support a for-profit insurance-base health care system for empirical reasons.

I agree, if by efficient you mean lower costs and relatively increased access to some forms of health care. I would even support a single payer type system with an opt out for those who prefer not to pay into the pool it just like my employer does. For profit insurance is inefficient by design. But just because for profit insurance is inefficient does not mean a single payer government run program is better. Nor is mandatory contribution to health care consistent with American concepts of Liberty and self-determination under divine providence.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the American military presence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, Germany, the Philippines, South Korea, etc… (130 countries in all)

Only in cases where there is a clear and present danger to the US.

What is clear and present danger? Danger to our economy? Danger to our military bases? Danger to US businesses gather profits from outside our country? The vague threat of terrorism?

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the Patriot Act?

No.

Good. But if it is wrong why are we not working to repeal it?

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the bailouts?

Be more specific. I don’t support or oppose anything on ideological grounds.

In the past 2 years the FED and congress have provided low interest rate loans to banks and other corporations, essentially saving the "too big to fail." Do you support this?

In the past two years congress has authorized tax breaks to home buyers and car buyers in attempts to stabilize the prices and sales of housing and automobiles. Do you support these interventions in the market?

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the “war on drugs”?
Do you support the Kyoto treaty?
Do you support NAFTA?

No, yes, no. In regards to Kyoto, free markets don’t work for everything; pollution is the most glaring example, protection of human rights is another.

Glad you don't support NAFTA and war on drugs. And you are right, free markets cannot regulate morality. It is immoral to pollute (destroy what does not belong to you) and violate human rights. However finding a balance between a society that has the means to protect the vulnerable without creating a society where the elites can use government to enhance themselves at the expense of the vulnerable majority is key.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support the income tax?

Yes. I support a strongly progressive income tax as the only proven system to delay extreme wealth concentration and subsequent economic and civil upheaval. I also support a strong inheritance tax to delay the formation of an aristocracy. Notice I use the words “delay” in both instances.

Yes, I do notice your terminology. One possible solution that would be perhaps even better at delaying the concentration of extreme wealth is to have a generational reset like they had in ancient Israel. The land was divided amongst the inhabitants at the start. Then the free market took over, however every so many years the land must be returned to original owner (or his descendants).

Furthermore, voluntary charity is far more efficient at redistributing resources to places, projects, and people valued by society than is government.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support an open border policy or should we restrict who is allowed to immigrate and emigrate?

I support open borders within reason (i.e. criminals, drugs and human trafficking, etc).

Good, I agree. However, if we end the war on drugs than we don't need to regulate drugs any more than we do sugar or tea.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support government subsidies of housing?

No, except for homeless shelters that primarily serve the mentally ill. Almost all chronically homeless are mentally ill and incapable of “bootstrapping” themselves.

Good, however mental illness is in the eye of the beholder.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support government subsidies of agriculture?

Generally no. I do believe that the bulk of our arable land should be preserved for farming in the future as population grows. This is a matter of national defense and self-sufficiency.

Agreed, however I doubt we need regulation or subsidies to achieve this. The market will allocate land to agriculture if it makes the most sense to the owners interests.

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support government subsidies in the form of food stamps?
Do you support government subsidies of unemployment?

Only for short periods of time. To be honest, I don’t know that much about welfare nor do I care. It isn’t something that concerns me or occupies my mind very often.

Welfare is an important part of our culture and a major force in the lives and decision making of millions of Americans. Furthermore we must recognize that what we subsidize we encourage more of. The vast majority of Americans do not want to be on welfare, and would prefer to be self sufficient. However as government hand outs, bail outs etc... grow more and more people are coming to expect other people to subsidize their own mistakes and misfortune. We are creating an entitlement culture, while dismissing personal and corporate responsibility. As a nation in debt, with an aging population and shrinking real productivity, these are trends that should be on our radar screen. They must be recognized and dealt with before government overreach and debt causes the system to collapse on itself due to the sheer weight of over-expansion.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Do you support minimum wage laws?

They have a time and place. Now is not one of them, but they were important in the past in the US. Minimum wage laws would be useful in certain third world countries.

Great, there is a time and a place for just about everything. To everything turn, turn turn....

Nomograph says

dHominem says

Do you support State/Federal/Municipal Employee Unions?

I support free labor markets. Laborers should be free to unionize, and employers should be free to oppose such unions, and the market will arrive at a compromise. To oppose unions means so support government restriction of labor markets.

Agreed, and that is my point. As an employer (taxpayer), I feel that State/Federal/Municipal unions are counterproductive and should be abolished.

O.K. but that's the Obama bong, not my brand.

I roll Nader Taders.

Sorry. I won't play this shell game. This topic is a trap. Nomo will have to do much butter than this. I really can't fathom his logic. No matter how hard I Triton, it's too deep for me. Not only that but I don't want to catch something.
Grotto go now. The Scalloping Gourmet is on the telly.

AdHominem says

The market will allocate land to agriculture if it makes the most sense to the owners interests.

Mr Market is a short-term optimizer, is path-dependent, and only optimizes locally not globally (ie does not consider wider impacts). Adam Smith has its limitations you know and it is dangerous to take his arguments as an article of faith. This is similar to Marxism preferring doctrine over reality.

Optimizing results on the longer-term and the wider basis requires an extra-market force. Some call this the State, others call it "the gummint".

RayAmerica says

I still like Obama. He’s definitely got a hard job cleaning up the wreckage of the Bush years.

Very funny. In fact, it gets my award for the funniest line on this thread.

What don't you understand about a $4T+ debt overextension, Ray?

If that line continued on its 2005-2008 trajectory we'd still have the Bush Boom.

However, since the Bush Boom was created by the creation of around ten trillion of new debt and not organic growth, the economy is in the process of finding bottom, and it's going to be a long and painful process at that.

Giggle away, idiot.

Troy says

Mr Market is a short-term optimizer

Exactly, if the owner derives more pleasure from letting his land sit he will do so. That is exactly what I said. The owner will do with his land what he considers best for him. ( the good news being that most people desire profit from their investments) I trust the majority of individuals to maximize productivity on their own property more than I trust Washington DC to maximize productivity, were the "gummint" to dictate land use from the top down.

AdHominem says

Exactly, if the owner derives more pleasure from letting his land sit he will do so. That is exactly what I said. The owner will do with his land what he considers best for him. ( the good news being that most people desire profit from their investments) I trust the majority of individuals to maximize productivity on their own property more than I trust Washinton DC to maximize productivity, were the gummint to dictate land use from the top down.

The problem occurs when everyone decides to sell their farmland for condos over a relatively short timeperiod and we're left with not enough corn, beans and wheat to feed our population. Each farmer was maximizing his profit, but the effect on society was catastrophic.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Troy says

Central banks are not a “leftist” thing.

no one said they were but thanks for the straw man post

RayAmerica says

policy or program that is promulgated by the left

Ray did. He seems obsessed with Elliemae, the left, and welfare, more or less in that order.

Nomo - I'm pretty awesome. I can certainly see why someone might be obsessed with me, 'cause I've got it all. Brains, Beauty, I'm damn fun (and funny too), and I have quite a bit of patience. (this is usually the slow time of year, too...)

I hate Obama says

I still like Obama. He’s definitely got a hard job cleaning up the wreckage of the Bush years.

Very funny. In fact, it gets my award for the funniest line on this thread.

Damn. Now that the award's been given out, there's no sense in trying. :(

You started this thread just so you could carp on Mikey. Did the whole thing on porpoise, you little shrimp. Meanwhile, he sits around on his bass looking for a way to answer.

Don't answer, Mikey - he's just trying to bait you 'cause you're quite the catch. I'm going dolphin, myself. Things are getting rough.

@Troy,
why attack another poster? The point made by this thread (in my humble opinion) is that funny people that clowned Bush are now clowning Lord Barry. The untold joke is how those who support Lord Barry do not find these people nearly as funny now that it's their clown in the circus. That's just how it goes, I guess.

I would like to hear Code Pink's explaination for not showing up on the links, or at some other relaxation jaunt, to protest Lord Barry's willingness to kick-back (pun) while sending boys off to die .... doesn't that bother anyone else? Are the dead soldiers more acceptable to Code Pink, et al, now that a half-white progressive leftist is telling them where to go get killed? That just don't seem correct to me.

Bap33 says

The untold joke is how those who support Lord Barry do not find these people nearly as funny now that it’s their clown in the circus. That’s just how it goes, I guess.

I didn't find many of the Bush jokes funny.

Tenouncetrout says

Jimmy Fallon, I thought Fallon was part of that SNL crack pot History making machine. Yeah the not ready for prime time players, aren’t ready for political pontifications either.

Are they still called the not ready for prime time players? fallon's gotta go, imho. However, he did a St. Patrick's Day bit on his guitar where he channeled Eminem that was about the best I've seen on that show in years.