patrick.net

Tenouncetrout says

How did you deduce that?

Because of the Pentagon shooter case, basically. And also the IRS kamikaze in Texas.

The Alex Jones / Truther / Moonhoax / Rothbard contingent is a pretty varied assortment of nutballs.

The Tea Party stuff only intersects the general lunacy of the above at right angles -- on the margin, about stuff concerning the iRS, the Fed, fiat money, etc.

OH! I thought there was something Scientific going on.

Tenouncetrout says

I doubt the Tea party has Monopoly on Angry hungry people

Angry or even angry and hungry is one thing. Schizophrenic or psychopathic is quite another.

What I fear is that some very small percentage of extreme wing nuts think "good!" And that maybe a less extreme but larger bunch say something to the effect, "hey when things are this bad, what do you expect ?" They can see it not as justified, but yet still somehow consistent with their hate.

Sorry, I should probably keep such thoughts to myself, but when it comes to this kind of thing, probably like many people, I'm somewhat of an emotional lightweight. Let's pray (sorry Troy to go there) that maybe people will continue to talk about chilling out with the hate and the hateful talk.

Shrek, if your out there,...I love you man.

Tenouncetrout says

It seems to me what ever the rash of high strung nut jobs are. There’s an alarming amount of people in this country not happy with the Leadership. Bombs and Guns aren’t the answer, but the looneys are the canary in the coal mine.

Not really. Crazy people are crazy and do crazy things.

It doesn't say much about larger trends. Charles Whitman did basically this same thing 40-odd years ago, because he was crazy.

Worrying about the political ideology of crazy people is pointless. This guy was rambling about using gold for currency, sure, but he was also rambling about being a dreamer and needing sleep, and maybe something about being an athiest (or at least not wanting a bible from an army recruiter).

That tells you that he was:

1. Crazy
2. Crazy
3. Crazy

This crazy person was bound to do a crazy thing. His target might have been different if his crazed obsessions were different, but he still would have done something crazy.

Politicizing this crazy bastard's crazy actions are just as stupid as politicizing the discovery building loon.

I certainly think that public figures should avoid inflammatory rhetoric and act in a civilized manner, but I don't think they're really doing much to fan the flames of crazy.

One thing that I encountered last year was David Ellsberg's account of meeting an Indian Gandhi follower who related to him the general philosophy of not considering people as enemies, a force to be destroyed.

Ah, I see I posted on that already:

http://patrick.net/?p=570183#comment-702627

I'm happy to see that this philosophy has permeated my thinking a bit and moderated my response to people, and I am better for it.

Kevin says

but I don’t think they’re really doing much to fan the flames of crazy.

Religious fundamentalism is a low-grade crazy, no?

Kevin says

I certainly think that public figures should avoid inflammatory rhetoric and act in a civilized manner, but I don’t think they’re really doing much to fan the flames of crazy.

I'm not so sure. If there is a lot of hate out there in politics, I can see it triggering something that otherwise might have stayed dormant. Don't forget, someone with a gun, only needs to go fully batshit crazy for a fairly short period of time to do a lot of harm.

Kevin says

Crazy people are crazy and do crazy things.

marcus says

If there is a lot of hate out there in politics, I can see it triggering something that otherwise might have stayed dormant. Don’t forget, someone with a gun, only needs to go fully batshit crazy for a fairly short period of time to do a lot of harm.

Mentally ill people are unstable and anything can set them off - and Faux News feeds right into the anger & hatred. Crazy people believe that Glenn Beck is speaking directly to them (and he probably is, he appears to have some mental illness of his own if he believes his own line of crap. He could be like Rush Limbaugh, a "do as I say" kind of person. I wish they'd both self-medicate to the point of shutting the hell up. But the crazies would find someone else to listen to.

Remember that David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) received his instructions from a barking dog. Ain't no rhyme or reason. I once had a mentally ill man tell me that the woman on the cover of a magazine was keeping a secret from him and he was going to find out what it was. He was later found to have an arsenal of weapons and enough ammo to cause some major damage.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40988567/ns/politics?gt1=43001

The Pima County Sherriff, on MSN.com (above), implies that Arizona is a "mecca for prejudice and bigotry." After her office was vandalized, Giffords (the politico who was shot in the head) referred to Sarah Palin's listing her seat as one of the top targets in midterm elections:
"For example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action," Giffords said in an interview with MSNBC."

During his campaign effort to unseat Giffords in November, Republican challenger Jesse Kelly held fundraisers where he urged supporters to help remove Giffords from office by joining him to shoot a fully loaded M-16 rifle. Kelly is a former Marine who served in Iraq and was pictured on his website in military gear holding his automatic weapon and promoting the event. He was playing directly off of the bullseye target that sarah palin placed on her website in an attempt to defeat Giffords:

Our political system is built on fear & hatred. Sarah Palin plays into it, and some people believe that she's the second coming (politically speaking). I think she's a whiny-ass with out-of-control children who is ill-informed about most issues, likes to shoot guns out of helicopters, and claims to be the victim of verbal attacks only because she lacks the intelligence to speak to the issues:
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm

This shooting, while perpetrated by a mentally ill person, was encouraged by political extremists. Enough already!

At the bottom of her target chart, palin says, "(three) already retiring at the end of their terms. 17 more to go!"

Now it's 16. She must be so proud.

Listen loose your house job and wife all in the same month. Gandhi would be looking for an address to mail a bomb.

If the Obama administration is giving rise to domestic terrorism, the Republicans are going to eat them alive come November 2012, solely on that concept. So keep the course of screwing over the base middle class in this country ridiculing them when they get angry at the status quo. While the mentality in Washing is "How can we tax the Sons of bitches even More?".

I direct your attention to the Father of 5 holding it together on a job he has to drive 30 miles a day to, in his Ford 350 truck, because the task at hand dictates he does so. Laugh! Let's all point at that poor misguided Soul for not driving the latest Unicorn Far powered Car that is yet to exist, and tax his Gas, and laugh at him as Food prices get more out of reach. He's told he'll keep his house, but in the end, the Sheriff will show up to supervise the bank work crew discard his household to curb for all the neighbors to see, just how small he's been living.

Do you think that guy is going to blame Palin?

You guys crack me up.

That guy was clearly a nut job, though.
But I don't think people will blame the Tea Party or Republicans, this guy was product of his own personal demons that the current economics and politics pushed over the edge. That is going to resonate with with many people at the gas pump and grocer line. Not in Violence but how they Vote Nov. 2012.

Tenouncetrout says

You guys crack me up.

So we need to have some truth out there, about what caused this economic situation. It's not simple and it's not one thing. Part of it is even due to the typical American's sense of entitlement.

But when you have people out there talking hate, and trying to twist things around to where it's all Obama's fault for doing his best to keep the economy afloat in a fairly conservative way. Do they talk that talk because it's true ? Or do they do it because if they can sell that message, that benefits them politically? And sure, because then in their mind, they can get a chance to address the problems *their way*. (the end justifies the means)

We need to have a better way of getting the truth out there, which is somewhere in the middle, as is Obama and as are most of the democrats these days (if not a little bit on the right). But no, the truth, not spun with right wing hate might allow Obama success in creating his socialist state. What a crock.

I heart truth.

I say that when politics gets to where the primary goal is to prevent the other team (party) from having success governing, because then they would get to continue governing, even when the problems are critical, we are basically fucked.

I agree that this guy is a crazy canary. He's nuts, but he's also a symptom of a bigger problem: noxious fascist gases spewing from Fox News. Palin and Beck definitely should share the blame, because they've been encouraging insane hatred for quite a while now.

I definitely felt like shooting someone after getting my latest insurance premium hike, so I can see where a lot of the populist anger is ultimately coming from: frustration with the results when Congressmen consistently act in the interests of megacorporations like banks and insurerers. They use our involuntary tax money to bail out Wall Street banks, or they require unlimited premium payments to private insurers. The working guy sees that his own life sucks more all the time, but he still has not figured out that it's because all his money is being stolen and then given to the top 0.1%, who are the owners of those megacorporations.

Palin and Beck are trying to channel that anger to protect those same megacorporations, by breeding these rabid attack dogs and telling them to go bite anyone who is getting too close to the truth.

In "Who Rules America?" http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/ Prof. Domhoff points out that every concession our ruling class was ever forced to make (social security, unemployment compensation, Medicare, etc) was made only because there was a real threat that they would be violently overthrown.

As an alternative to actually making life fair for working people in America, which would require fair taxes on the very rich, they've been on a propoganda rampage for years now, promoting unfairness as The American Way and encoraging attacks on anyone who talks about fairness. This kind of shooting is the inevitable result.

Back in the day, did you ever watch "The MacNeil/Lehrer" hour, which has now morphed in to the PBS news hour ? When they addressed a controversial topic, they would have a civlil well informed person from each opposing viewpoint arguing their side.

Or even further back, there was a show called point counter point, with William F. Buckley. I didn't agree with him, and he sometimes seemed pretentious (but that was just style), but he would have respectful debates. Ultimately I respect him a lot compared to what we have today, because he insisted on staying somewhat intelligent. This was back in the day of the Vietnam War and before.

This type of media transmission of news and or debate of issues, allowed people to hear both sides, with a discussion that was moderated by a neutral party. When there are opinions on both sides, it would be good for everyone to always get a truly fair hearing of both sides.

Fast forward to now. There are many people who get their first hearing of controversial subjects from Fox news or Rush Limbaugh. Yes, MSNBC rose up I think in reponse to Fox, and they do spend much of their energy showcasing the most outrageous things that Rush and Beck say.

When everyone is getting their info in an extremely biased way from one side or another, it only elevates the emotion and the potential for manipulating the masses as they are so manipulated these days.

Might I point out that the recession started during Bush's administration, that we've been under a Republican administration for 20 of the past 30 years, and that President Obama inherited one of the worst economies of the last centuries?

He inherited bailouts, unprecedented unemployment, and a housing crash. He inherited the doom of the auto industry, wall street falling apart, people who lost their entire inheritance due to Madoff & Schenker and all of the scammers out there.

Ten oz, you're angry and I get it. But might I direct your attention to the father of five who works for minimum wage (which most republicans are against), driving his ford pickup (it's a used 150 because the 350 was repo'd and he found this one in the want ads. He can't afford a computer so he couldn't look on Craig's list for a better deal). He's losing the house that he bought during the RE bubble that grew to tremendous proportions during the Bush administration with an interest-only loan created by the mortgage industry that bought the Bush administration and was sold to him during the Bush administration by a Realtor who had a job during the Bush administration because the NAR lobbied so hard to continue the practices that led to the bubble.

The Sheriff that is moving him out just had his hours cut back and duties increased due to cutbacks that happened when bloated government created during the Bush administration used tax projections from the bubble to create their budgets. Don't worry about the neighbors - most of them have already moved out and the rest are waiting for it to happen to them. The bank crews are thrilled to have jobs, even tho they're underpaid compared to the jobs that they held before.

Don't worry about the family of five, tho. They qualify for food stamps, section 8 programs and apartment rents are lower than they were - so they'll have housing and food. They'll live on the edge, mainly because they bought into the prosperity hype of the Bush administration - but it's a Democratic administration now, so at least there's someone with a soul in the White House.

Many people have lost everything in a short amount of time. They didn't go to a store and open fire on a crowd of innocent people - including a congresswoman who was elected in 2007 and certainly didn't make the guy lose his job, house and wife.

He was mentally ill. Please don't think that there is any explanation to his rampage. Your justification of his actions only serves to empower those sick people who hate our President and blame him for everything.

elliemae says

Ten oz, you’re angry and I get it.

No I'm just disappointed, that you guys think Obama inherited Bush's policy when he was bequeathed them. This guy was clearly psychotic and was on the radar for making death threats. His anger manifested onto the Democrats, but some how I get the impression. That if had Bush or even if McCain were president. Then he would have been shooting up a Republican Piggly Wiggle meet and greet.

elliemae says

but it’s a Democratic administration now, so at least there’s someone with a soul in the White House.

How do you quantify that either way?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/04/the_republican_party_has_no_so.html
http://www.badrepublicans.com/

To be fair, there was also a site that quoted a story about Democrats having no souls. There was also a site that said that Republicans ain't got no soul...

Yeah but how do you measure that? Liberals laugh at the Religious Right in this country, that turn to their book of faith when it comes to quantifying the quality of ones "Soul", then you act as an authority when you start talking about the soulful and soulless of this person against this person.

Atheists talking about Souls is Ironic.

They use our involuntary tax money to bail out Wall Street banks, or they require unlimited premium payments to private insurers

The mandates come with tax subsidies, but if you are a high-income earner I guess you either won't qualify for them or be paying for them with . . . higher income taxes.

The true nature of Republican opposition to the mandate is the simple realization that the rich have just been put on the hook for ~90% of the health care costs of the bulk of the American people. They, rightfully so, preferred the status quo ante where people just were totally fucked if they got sick instead.

The thesis that I repeat here ad nauseam is that the silly borrow & spend policies of the Bush administration put this nation on a very very unsustainable course wrt asset values and general prosperity.

2003-2007 was all a lie essentially, a mirage created by the unsustainable take-on of SIX TRILLION of household debt on top of another THREE TRILLION of government debt.

People are angry about all the lies from the previous administration (that's largely why the Republicans lost the House & Senate in 2006) but don't have any real concrete view of improvements coming in the future.

Just a message of "Hope & Change" ain't going to cut it either.

The problems we face this decade are immense. The honesty we've devoted to actually understanding them is miniscule. The gap is growing.

Troy says

The true nature of Republican opposition to the mandate is the simple realization that the rich have just been put on the hook for ~90% of the health care costs of the bulk of the American people.

Bull Shit! Anyone with a Job is on the hook. Have you been following along, or just reading TheGreatThingsObamaHasDone.com Blogs?

We're at 1400 a month now, and the premiums are going up 59% on top of that. Where have you been, we're not exactly Jeeves and Charles over here!

or, from another point of view, this was just another 22 year old dope-smoking athiest non-Christian that took the cowards approach and attacked innocent women and children ...... hmmmm ... In my opinion, he sure has alot more in common with crazy arab islamist than Conservatives or Beck or Palin (both very much Christian and support morality and non-violent action).

Personal accountibility is not popular on the left side of things, but is very popular on the right. This idiot is 100% responsible for his actions. Just like Malvo was. Just like the army muslim who shot up his comrads was. Just like the gunman in Oregon that walked in a fastfood place and killed cops that were just having lunch. Personal accountibility -- lets use it more often.

I personally would be happy to see this person swing by his neck from a rope, but only right after they hang every other convicted murderer in Az first. A murder 1 conviction is a murder 1 conviction, and here in America all life is equal (that is, everyone lucky enough to actually breath on their own), so before this idiot gets fried, fry those who have been waiting, because the life they took was worth just as much as any other life taken any other time. Murder 1, even when carried out by a crazy person, should result in a swift punishment of death -- preferribly hanging.

In “Who Rules America?” http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/ Prof. Domhoff points out that every concession our ruling class was ever forced to make (social security, unemployment compensation, Medicare, etc) was made only because there was a real threat that they would be violently overthrown.

The ruling class loves social security, unemployment compensation and Medicare. They invented it, they implemented it, and they forced their underlings to pay for it (and in the case of Medicare they also collect the profits from it).

It may be that the ruling class only makes changes when they feel threatened. But the populace of the United States hasn't posed a threat to the establishment in any real way except perhaps the civil rights movement, the Vietnam war protesters or the secessionists of Lincoln's America.

Please don't buy the lie that these programs were concessions made by the ruling class. They generally don't make concessions. They eliminate threats and the most creative way they do it is by getting their underlings to believe that their big brother government leaders are looking out for the people's best interest. The big lie is that we have a right who is self promoting big business and a left who is fighting for the little man. The truth is we have a right who is self promoting big business and a left who is fighting to preserve the illusion that they are fighting for the little man while preserving the big business status quo. The PTB from the "right" and "left" preserve the status quo. Gingrich and Gore, just two sides of the same coin. Bush and Obama, no real change/difference in practice. Just more of the same.

I like that the left realizes that the powers that be and big business cronies are a threat to the lives and liberty of the American people. I just wish they understood that these same powers are funding the candidates from the left as well. We are not going to have real change unless we begin to understand in our national consciousness that corporations have hijacked both parties and we live under corporate regime. Democrats and Republicans alike are responsible for the perpetuation of this regime.

Furthermore, Americans have for 70 years enjoyed the relative ease of life in a productive society. (I would say peaceful society as well but that would be a lie as we have perpetrated war around the world since becoming a superpower in the 1940's, and it is likely that these wars fought and paid for by the working class to the benefit of the elites and their corporations will bankrupt the working class). But our status as leader in productivity is changing. We are no longer a leading exporter and in fact we import much more than we export. We are going to have to either change that or accept a lower standard of living.

Drudgereport is splashing across the headlines the idea that the shooter is a "left-wing pothead".

Rush asserts that Democrats are secretely cheering the shooting because it provides them with another "Oklahoma City style" moment to push through more tyrannical legislation.

Commentors on Fox News website proclaim "Too bad he didn't get Pelosi too," and "Thank God for the Second Amendment" among many others in response to the shooting.

Yes, I do believe the vitriol has been toned down after this tragedy.

Bap33 says

In my opinion, he sure has alot more in common with crazy arab islamist than Conservatives or Beck or Palin (both very much Christian and support morality and non-violent action).

"I'm thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I'm wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out." -- Glenn Beck, May 17, 2005

Troy says

“I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I’m wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out.” — Glenn Beck, May 17, 2005

Glen Beck is whining pathetic Teet Mouse, and is as irrelevant as the scum that you brush off your shoe.
The Troys of the Liberal media gives Beck his voice, they feel compelled to rebroadcast and dissect every poor tasteless statement that Critter ever uttered. Why don't Liberals ever retort or dissect the intelligent arguments from both Conservative pundits and politicians. Nope just quote what that shitbrick Beck said on a show with less ratings than a Spongebob season 1 rerun. Then punctuate it by showing a photo shopped pick of a Racist toothless hillbilly.

You guys are Classic. The word I'm looking for is Marxists propaganda. Well played comrades right out of the book of Lenin.

Tenouncetrout says

Troy saysGlen Beck is whining pathetic Teet Mouse, and is as irrelevant as the scum that you brush off your shoe.

16 Tea Party members elected to congress in 2010 and Glen Beck is irrelevant?

Tenouncetrout says

The Troys of the Liberal media gives Beck his voice, they feel compelled to rebroadcast and dissect every poor tasteless statement that Critter ever uttered. Why don’t Liberals ever retort or dissect the intelligent arguments from both Conservative pundits and politicians.

So the media, by calling out and reporting Glen Beck's vitriol, are guilty of actually spreading more vitriol rather than awareness of it? So this is like newspapers in 1939 reporting on Nazi propoganda being guilty of spreading Nazi propoganda? Don't blame the Nazis, blame the messenger. The New York Times caused World War 2. Yeah, right.

“When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” -Sinclair Lewis

Conservative pundits and politicians' intelligent arguments are rebutted quite often and effectively. The problem is that the Right-Wing Media power does NOT report on this. You blame the messenger for causing bad things. The left blames the right wing media for NOT reporting bad things.

Bap33 says

or, from another point of view, this was just another 22 year old dope-smoking athiest non-Christian that took the cowards approach and attacked innocent women and children …… hmmmm … In my opinion, he sure has alot more in common with crazy arab islamist than Conservatives or Beck or Palin (both very much Christian and support morality and non-violent action).
Personal accountibility is not popular on the left side of things, but is very popular on the right. This idiot is 100% responsible for his actions. Just like Malvo was. Just like the army muslim who shot up his comrads was. Just like the gunman in Oregon that walked in a fastfood place and killed cops that were just having lunch. Personal accountibility — lets use it more often.
I personally would be happy to see this person swing by his neck from a rope, but only right after they hang every other convicted murderer in Az first. A murder 1 conviction is a murder 1 conviction, and here in America all life is equal (that is, everyone lucky enough to actually breath on their own), so before this idiot gets fried, fry those who have been waiting, because the life they took was worth just as much as any other life taken any other time. Murder 1, even when carried out by a crazy person, should result in a swift punishment of death — preferribly hanging.

I think it is brilliant taste that you can buy this today:

http://www.zazzle.com/tea_party_rally_we_came_unarmed_this_time_tshirt-235426866986316482

For those not wanting to click on the link, it is a Tea Party Rally shirt you can buy for $22 that says:

"We came unarmed (this time)"

Bap33 - Will you agree that this constitutes an existential threat to non-Tea Party people, the wearer assumes 100% responsibility, and that I can now start shooting Tea Party members in pre-emptive self defense? Seems reasonable according to conservative principles.

shrekgrinch says

SoCal Renter says

Bap33 - Will you agree that this constitutes an existential threat to non-Tea Party people, the wearer assumes 100% responsibility, and that I can now start shooting Tea Party members in pre-emptive self defense? Seems reasonable according to conservative principles.

Truthfully (I’m not Bap33 but will answer that unsolicited if it means I can piss even more people off than I usually do), I’ve always wondered how Liberals can be such dumb-asses when it comes to their fervent drive to totally piss off millions of gun-owners in this country. I mean, THEY OWN GUNS, people! Liberals usually don’t.
So, do ‘the math’. While your average Winchester hunting rifle won’t stand up to the National Guard on their worst day of the month, it is more than enough to kill unarmed liberals who stupidly & arrogantly think that they are somehow immune from the wrath of an armed people descended from folks that did take up arms against their government before (Parliament and King George).
Or, just the occasional nutjob with a gun. Either way…its not exactly smart to piss these folks off.
Yet, Libbies do it all the time and are even ramping it up right now. Brilliant!
This is one of the main reasons why I keep saying you libs live in some Reality-Free-Zone. It is amazing, really.

Anyone else reading shrek like he's saying the answer to my question is "Yes"? Scary.

I'm glad shrek is saying what Palin, Beck, O'Reilly, Rush and Hannity don't have the balls to say outloud (but they all think), which is basically, "Conservatives lack the intellectual capacity to peacefully participate in the democratic process so don't anger them or they will use violence against you".

I did 'the math' and Conservatives talk a lot of shit and kill little girls. Sickening.

SoCal Renter says

Bap33 - Will you agree that this constitutes an existential threat to non-Tea Party people, the wearer assumes 100% responsibility, and that I can now start shooting Tea Party members in pre-emptive self defense? Seems reasonable according to conservative principles.

no, I think this points to the right of Americans to be armed. Nothing wrong with being armed in my world. As a matter of fact, an armed populous removes this type of act from the equasion by 99%, and the chances of needing a trial for the 1% that does still happen is not very likely.

But, to answer your question: No. You should not feel threatened by Conservative Americans carring weapons. You should feel comforted by it. But, you should also be armed to defend yourself and others from unlawful attack .. such as this action, or some Gov action, or mass revolt by people that do not like you, and feel they sould be able to kill you and take what they have been getting for nothing thus far .... seems like a good idea to be prepaired for self defense in my opinion, and civil defense too.

Also, please refrain from making this a personal thing, I'm just sharing my view and I'm not doing so with a hope of becoming a pin(ya)ta. Thanks.

SoCal Renter says

I did ‘the math’ and Conservatives talk a lot of shit and kill little girls. Sickening.

the mental illness among them is palpable. What's the deal with Boehner crying all the time. It's like he's undergoing a psychotic break. Maybe they're all psychotic now.

Bap33 says

no, I think this points to the right of Americans to be armed. Nothing wrong with being armed in my world. As a matter of fact, an armed populous removes this type of act from the equasion by 99%,

Right... instead of what happened today we'd have a couple dozen dead people.

and the chances of needing a trial for the 1% that does still happen is not very likely

See, the thing is, the messages of violence are just so ingrained into the thinking patterns that you don't even recognize how disturbing they are. Life isn't comic books and actions and words have repercussions. Its the lack of admission of this and this disconnect that does indeed make me very nervous about conservatives carrying guns, personally.

Ask yourself this: why is it Canada and Switzerland have higher per capita gun ownership rates than the US but have murder rate that are fractional of what it is in the US?

kentm says

why is it Canada and Switzerland have higher per capita gun ownership rates than the US but have murder rate that are fractional of what it is in the US

less crime-ridden society for one. Black-on-black crime is immense in this country.

The per-capita GDP of Switzerland is about twice ours, and they don't have the socio-economic history of segregation etc that is responsible for so much extant inequality here in the US. On the contrary, they're (AFAICT) a tight-knit homogenous nation state with a long history of sensible coexistence and codevelopment.

I don't know anything about Canada but it's mostly rural and has space for people to really spread out, and a booming resource economy, and lots of socialism to lessen poverty pressures that drive our crime.

Did the guy drive a car to the Grocery store?
If so, we need to out law driving cars as well.
So those Right wing nuts don't make an obscure T-Shirt that nobody will never see, that says. "Drive down a Liberal today." and then some Lefty propagandist will then no doubt post it Ad Nauseum on every political discussion forum and blog on this side of Google China.

Slow news day Kent?

kentm says

Bap33 says
no, I think this points to the right of Americans to be armed. Nothing wrong with being armed in my world. As a matter of fact, an armed populous removes this type of act from the equasion by 99%,
Right… instead of what happened today we’d have a couple dozen dead people.

I disagree. And there is no evidence that says only police can aim a gun. Besides, if the boogymanization of weapons would be put to an end, and HighSchool would start teaching weapons as an elective, just like driving a car, then the unrealistic fear of weapons would be removed. As a matter of fact, the fear of an armed populous is more important than any thing else for securing the freedoms we enjoy. All of our freedoms are secured by weapons, bullets, and people willing to use them. Every last one. Including freedom from defending ourselves from getting shot by crazy dope smoking cult member leftists like this idiot in AZ.

Also, no Conservative I personally know would be swayed by cool signs or clever web sites ... Besides, if they were swayed by such things they would be liberals by now. After all, that is the progressive liberals trump card --- hip catch phrases .... like, "Tea Bagger", for example.

From where I'm sitting, I find it distrurbing how far those on the left are trying to push this shooter to the right ... and profess that he did this based on the words of a few people on the radio or tv ... without any proof of his listening (or agreeing) with any part of what is said by Beck or Palin ... and yet, they ignore the absolute facts about this idiot .... it is disturbing.

Calling for less political discourse ... after the crap Barry and Co has pulled over the last few years ... ummm .. not likely.

And the boarder issue is going to explode right about now too. Just hide and watch.

kentm says

the messages of violence are just so ingrained into the thinking patterns that you don’t even recognize how disturbing they are.

avoid personal attacks ... I do. Do you support personal accountability?

As I said above, "messages" don't work on everyone. If they did I would vote Demoncrat, smoke dope, and drive a Prius - after all, I have lived in California my entire 40+ life!!

Bap33 says

Including freedom from defending ourselves from getting shot by crazy dope smoking cult member leftists like this idiot in AZ.

You hope/wish he is leftist, and not swayed by the 24 - 7 inflamatory content of programs like Limbough, Beck, and other talk radio pundits.

Bap33 says

Also, no Conservative I personally know would be swayed by cool signs or clever web sites … Besides, if they were swayed by such things they would be liberals by now.

Funny....

So you don't think that Rush and Glenn are constantly inflammatory ? They present in a very neutral way both sides, and then in a very detached way explain their very well reasoned point of view. Sorry, but what they say sounds like pumped up right wing emotion to me.

That's a message.

And if right wingers aren't tripping over each other to buy it all, hook line and sinker, then why does it sell so much ad time and make them so much money ?

Maybe those guys are in fact high integrity individuals who are on a spiritual mission to save america. If it so happens that they can get super rich because for some reason their message which is so objectively true, sells like hotcakes (to whom ?), then hey, I guess they have to accept it.

Not meaning to level personal attacks at you Bap33. We've had multiple civil debates over the years.

I'm not sure how this is twisting into a Gun Banning debate, but I'm not a liberal who wants to outlaw guns. The discussion has been the Right Wing Vitriol pouring forth from libertarian and Tea Party activits (who are welcomed under the Conservative and Republican umbrella).

Words have consequences. Inflammatory rhetoric that advocates and suggests violence has real world consequences. And as Shrekginch so gleefully points out, it terrorizes the targets of the propaganda.

What happens to the discussion when the Left begins utilizing the same violent propaganda? Gun owners are not exclusively right-wing, as conservatives like to think. In fact, Giffords was a proud gun owner and there are plenty of gun toting liberals across America.

The idea that citizens with guns make a society more polite and law-abiding has been disproven empirically. Anyone who has been in a shoot or be shot situation knows that fine motor skills decrease as stress increases. They even did a study where they armed an entire class full of college students with paint guns and told them a shooter was going to come in the class. No one could pull and fire their weapon before the shooter entered the classroom and shot up the place. Lastly, look at Afghanistan and Mexico. Gun control is non-existant. Wonderful examples of laisse faire gun control.

Proper gun usage in combat situations requires FAR more training than merely driving a car.

Stop getting all your news from Fox and the Drudgereport. Loughner is clearly a right wing libertarian who believes in the David Wynn Miller conspiracies.

Lastly, can we stop demonizing pot smokers? The only thing I've ever seen a pot smoker kill was freezer full of hot pockets at 3am. Fox News keeps repeating the pot thing without mentioning the major alchohol abuse. Loughner clearly abused alchohol according to sources and was even hospitalized after passing out in class. The doper thing just further exposes Fox's lack of credibility.

That is correct ... I do not think any pundit is to be held responsible for the actions of a crazy DOPE-HEAD cult member. No more than you can blame their parents, teachers, or second cusins .... funny, this guys parents have not yet been examined.

Anyone have any idea on the number of 22 year old dope smoking cultists that vote, and vote conservative, listen to Rush, and have an alter to satan in the back yard.

Now, how many dope smoking anti-God, 22 year olds vote for nothing but D's?

Pretty cool how facts work huh? I know, I did not include any facts - but EVERYONE knows what I'm inferring is TRUE! Took my cue from the left!

Why is the left hunting for someone to blame other than the DOPE-HEAD, ANTI-CHRISTIAN, CRAZY PERSON that pulled the trigger? What I said above, about this guy being more like a crazy arab terrorrist than any Conservative I know, still sounds right to me.

It is shamefull how the leftist media and their loyal menions are treating this. Shamefull

It would appear that dope smokers should not be armed. A great reason for a law against armed dope smokers.

Bap33 says

It is shamefull how the leftist media and their loyal menions are treating this. Shamefull

Really. I wonder whether you are hearing that from actually listening to leftist media?

Because when I listen to leftist media (you know Palin's "lame stream media") mostly what I am hearing is along these lines: "We don't really know the politics of this young man or whether there was any connection to politics or political commentary, but do you think maybe this is a time to look at how inflamatory the dialogue is ?"

Everyone knows that the emotions and dialogue in AZ runs very hot, I guess mostly because of immigration. Isnt it AZ that even has laws against having certain types of classes that teach about other cultures ? They do happen to have a deep right wing streak there, and some very emotional contentious political debates. Some would even say a lot of racst hate talk.

Did you see the way people tried to use emotion and ugly rude behavior to shut down any calm meaningful objective discussion of health care at those town hall meetings the summer before last. Sure it is their right.

I guess if hate and emotion are working for you and your party, then the leftists who say, "even if this shooting was not political, maybe we could use this as an opportunity to tone down the discussion for the benefit of all," are being shameful.

I get it. Hate and bullying with emotion is working for us. Don't let the shameful liberals use this to take that away from us.