patrick.net

Nomograph says

John McCain was born in Panama and the birthers never batted an eyelash.

Well that's a horse of a different.... I mean... erm....

Sidney is a respectable middle name not SUSPECT like HUSSEIN!

Actually there was a bit of a snit about McCain originally because of the Panama thing, from Ron Paul supporters. Eventually they had to give it up, because well everyone seemed to find it sufficient that at least one parent was a citizen, and who the hell cares if you were born on a plane over the South Pole or not? And also McCain did an about-face on many of his former positions and acted more conservative, and eventually the Ron Paul people had no choice after Ron Paul was knocked out of the running. Not that RP would ever get the GOP nod of course unless all the others were caught on live video in a coke-fueled NAMBLA orgy.

I think it was rather sort of the same motivation for the Ron Paul people. Gotta find some "trick" that will disqualify the other guy.

shrekgrinch says

Because I never preached that idea(s). I don’t know if he was born here, so I don’t hold a view that he was or wasn’t either way…

Perhaps you are agnostic on where he was born, and just want to know the truth. However, you are very vocal on raising this “false” question on Obama’s birth location. It is that very vocal outcry, or I don’t know… for lack of a better word lets call it preaching, that makes you appear as a birther to others. Now, you may not be a birther in your heart, but you need to understand that to others this is how you appear when you choose to let them in on your views of Obama’s birth.

shrekgrinch says

I am curious about the ‘additional proof’ you mention.

I call it a “false” question because it has already been answered, and now its only purpose is to confuse and divide the public. Roberto, and Mark have been kind enough to once again show you why the birthers have had all their cases quickly thrown out of court. But, unfortunately that will probably not be enough for you, and has not been enough for all the birthers. The fact is that nothing will be enough. We could send a massive telescope 50 light years away from the earth, point it at Hawaii, and watch Obama’s mother go into the hospital and come out with a baby, and there would still be deniers. It is that continued denial in the face of evidence that gets you labeled as a birther.

Because of this denial regardless of evidence there is no reason for Obama to continue to placate his detractors. He has already provided enough proof of his eligibility to satisfy the courts. I am sure that by the next election he will have no problem complying with any new legally mandated requirements.

Keep in mind that the proof of Obama’s birth are separate issues from:
1. Poll workers seeing a valid picture ID

I agree that election fraud in the US is worse that most would want to admit, and positive ID of voters being one of the problems. I don’t know enough about the picture ID issue to comment on that, but there are may ways to make sure people only vote once.

2. Any future legal requirements to run for office

From now on, they should have a storage vault where they can save the placenta of children born in the U.S. It should be entered into a DNA database, so in the event that the person runs for president some 40-odd years down the line it can be verified that the child is not an alien.

Of course, since the world will end in 2012 this will all be an exercise in futility.

shrekgrinch says

But then again, you are the one who is erroneously equating something as clear cut and dried as a simple legal validation of an important part of our Constitution that can be proved for good because the proof (supposedly) exists with Bill O’Reilly’s situation that doesn’t even come close as a comparison.

Oh, I see… so bringing a murdering rapist to justice is not worthy of our attention?

The reason why both O’Reilly and Obama are in the same quandary is they both are being asked to prove something that, while probably not, has the slightest probability to be false.

O’Reilly his innocence
Obama his citizenship

shrekgrinch says

Because O’Reilly’s accusers have to provide the proof.

No one is accusing O’Reilly of anything. There are just unanswered questions that he could easily clear up if he would address them. Why is he avoiding the issue? I am sure he is probably innocent, but his silence does not inspire confidence.

On the other hand if the law were involved they would need to have proof before bringing any charges against O’Reilly.

shrekgrinch says

What I *should* have said was “so far the public at large has not seen any documented proof that proves Obama was born in the US”. But why bother? You’re just going to do exactly what you are doing now anyway.

This statement makes you a Birther. Birthers believe that the public at large has not seen any documented proof that proves Obama was born in the US despite the release of the Birth Certificate.

shrekgrinch says

Really? Why? Say they get it on the ballot in enough states or enough swing states like Florida, etc.. Then Obama will have to decide if he will comply *IF* he runs for re-election in 2012, right? If he does, then we all get to see the proof…which is exactly what I definitely want and many others.

Read the state ballot initiatives. Obama has already complied with these initiatives with his release of the Birth Certificate. Making these State laws will not cause him to change anything.

shrekgrinch says

He presented a document that Hawaii gives to people who were not born outside the US or for people who just don’t want to show their real birth certificates for some reason. It is not a real birth certificate. Even Hawaii has acknowledged this. Obama’s real birth certifcate has been sealed.

Ahhhh. The GRAND CONSPIRACY! The claim that the legal Birth Certificate Obama has shown the world is not "real". The burden of proof is on you, dude. Prove that the Birth Certificate is not real. Birthers can't do it.

Like everyone else on this board, you are a Birther because you believe in Birther fantasies that Obama has not shown his "real" birth certificate.

I love the Long Form Debate. Let's catch everyone up-to-date on this aspect of the Birther conspiracy.

* Nothing in the Constitution mentions Long Forms and Short Form birth certificates.
* The Birth Certificate provided is the legal document for Constitutional eligibility for becoming President.
* Fantasy: The President merely has to ask for the Long Form to be released:

http://ezinearticles.com/?President-Barack-Obamas-Long-Form-Birth-Certificate&id=2708781

There's really no such thing. What these conspiracy theorists are probably referring to is the "birth certificate" that people sometimes get at a hospital (often times complete with the baby's footprint, etc) but the truth is that kind is actually nothing more than a souvenir meant for scrapbooks and has absolutely no legal meaning. For example the hospital souveneir is not acceptable for getting a passport, while the official state certified birth certificate Obama put online is.

* Obama's silence is brilliance. Lincoln used the same tactic to politically crush the Democrats.

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/01/the-silence-of-obama/

Certainly many parallels have been drawn between the two astute politicians from Illinois who became president of the United States. I was reading a book about one of them, Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln, just now when I came across a passage of relevance here.

After his nomination as the Republican candidate for president, the renowned orator Lincoln refused speaking engagements and refused to authorize political statements, pointing only to his previous speeches and the Republican platform. He even refused to deny false statements made against him.

Author Doris Kearns Goodwin wrote:

When his friend Leonard Swett asked his approval of a letter expressing the candidate’s sentiments, Lincoln replied, “Your letter, written to go to N.Y. is … substantially right.” However, he advised, “Burn this, not that there is anything wrong with it but because it is best not to be known that I write at all.” He recognized that anything he said would be scanned scrupulously for partisan purposes. …

Informing a Jewish friend that he had never entered a Know Nothing lodge, as accused by Democrats, he cautioned that “our adversaries think they can gain a point if they could force me to openly deny this charge, by which some degree of offense would be given to the Americans. For this reason, it must not publicly appear that I am paying attention to the charge.”

Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln

Likewise, the birthers would gain a point if Obama responded to their demands.

Some of my favorite things have come out of the Birther use of the Freedom of Information Act. We've found out some cool facts:

* Obama's mom didn't get a passport to leave the United States until 1965. Four years after Obama was born in 1961!
* Obama released images of his official passport that proves he was born in Hawaii.

SoCal Renter says

* Obama’s mom didn’t get a passport to leave the United States until 1965. Four years after Obama was born in 1961!

Well, well..... this is only because Obama found some other way to get himself born in Kenya. Come on man, you have to think like a Communist Hitler embryo here, they don't just get born the normal way in a Western hospital. Their mommas will find some way to spirit themselves out of the country without a passport, to get born in a third world hospital, that is but a trifling problem.

Actually the tinfoilers claim the fact that there are no prior records is she was swept in a general loss/destruction of records by the agency. Which of course is classic misdirection by a thorough and deep conspiracy.

http://james4america.wordpress.com/2010/08/01/obamas-mothers-passport-records-prior-to-1965-are-missing/

shrekgrinch says

Pretty sad.

The fact remains that the courts again and again have been satisfied that Obama meets the citizenship qualifications. What is our legal system seeing in the evidence that you are not? I understand and am willing to accept that nothing is going to convince you of Obama’s US citizenship.

In attempting to spread birther gospel you are either:
A. Willfully ignorant
B. Mentally Ill
C. Purposefully deceptive

Yes, it is sad.

This is hilarious. People confusing what they wish were true with reality. Ahhh. Good stuff.

robertoaribas says

grow a freaking brain already, birther nitwits.

ANY ALTERATIONS INVALIDATE THIS CERTIFICATE.

Roberto - do you see any alterations on the image?

MarkInSF says

robertoaribas says

grow a freaking brain already, birther nitwits.

But, they think the Hawaiian government faked this document for Obama. It’s all a conspiracy. They don’t really have vault records showing he was born in Hawaii. Nevermind Fukino, the relevant official saying “I … have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen” He’s a liar!!! And so are several other Hawaiian officials.
Why doesn’t Obama “release” the records to the scrutiny of the press? Seems pretty obvious that he has nothing to gain from doing so, and a lot to gain from letting the conspiracy theorists look like the frothing at the mouth idiots and bigots they actually are.
Constitutionally, birth records are 100% the jurisdiction of the state, so even if these wackos get laws requiring proof beyond the documents produced by legitimate state officials, it would be stuck down by the SCOTUS.
In fact the whole issue would almost certainly be found irrelevant by the SCOTUS. “Natural born citizen” referrers to citizenship by virtue of birth, as opposed to citizenship granted by other means, such as “naturalization” when an alien from another country is granted citizenship. So, since he is a citizen by virtue of being born to a mother who is a citizen, it’s irrelevant where he was born.

Why don't you quote what the new Hawaii governor said recently. His investigators could only find something "written down" as a proof of Obama's birth in Hawaii.

He wanted to end the eligibility debate - instead he made it worse for Obama. His words imply that there is no Kapiolani long form birth certificate on file.

Your claim that Obama's birth place is irrelevant for eligibility for office (POTUS) s not true. If he was born abroad, the naturalization law in effect in 1961 would apply. According to that law a child born abroad, whose one parent was a foreigner and the other a US citizen was not a US citizen by default.

There was a condition that a US citizen parent had to reside in the USA at least 5 years after the age of 14. Obama's mother was younger than 19 when she gave birth to Obama. Therefore, if Obama was born abroad, not only he was not a natural-born citizen he was not even a US citizen at birth.

Abercrombie's comment about "written down" evidence is most likely a birth registration reported by a relative. The official birthplace story (Kapiolani Hospital) is not true.

SoCal Renter says

Some of my favorite things have come out of the Birther use of the Freedom of Information Act. We’ve found out some cool facts:
* Obama’s mom didn’t get a passport to leave the United States until 1965. Four years after Obama was born in 1961!

* Obama released images of his official passport that proves he was born in Hawaii.

The passport applications records released in July 2010 were not complete. The earliest document released is an application for passport RENEWAL.

Something else is important - government report was issued after two years of dragging feet and only after a lawsuit was filed. In the report there is a claim that passport application records dating prior to 1965 were destroyed in 1980s. Yet there is no order to destruct those documents. None was quoted in the report and subsequent investigation could not find one either.

A claim that government destroyed passport documents for people who were alive at the time after only storing them for 20 years in the archive is ridiculous. The US government retention policy for passport records is 100 years.

Either Obama's mother returned from abroad with a newborn baby or she did not. Government records would tell us. Yet even after a lawsuit was filed government officials keep public documents hidden from us.

nosf41 says

Why don’t you quote what the new Hawaii governor said recently. His investigators could only find something “written down” as a proof of Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

Why don't you? Having a written record doesn't sound like the word "only" is applicable, since being "written down" is the entire point of written records.

Some of these humans are so silly. If many can actually believe in this cause, just think how easy it must be for them to believe what they want to believe when their fantasy isn't so obviously false.

shrekgrinch says

robertoaribas says
do you really think a poor kenyan woman would think ahead to her son running for president, and announce his birth in a US newspaper?
Did I ever mention anything about some poor kenyan woman? How on earth did you even go to that?

Yes, roberto - how in the hell did you make this huge leap of assumption? You're making too many excuses for your friend Obama, whose birth certificate you accept as proof of his birth in this country merely because it's a record of his being born in Hawaii. You further assert that the birth announcements in the two local newspapers proves that Obama was born in the US, because this couldn't have been planted after the fact. Then you throw in a reference to a poor kenyan woman to play upon our sympathies because there's no way that she could ever have imagined that her son would grow up to become president of the USA, nor could she have afforded to plant an announcement in the Hawaiian papers, nor would she (with her lack of education due to being poverty-stricken in a third-world country) have the wherewithall to begin the conspiracy at the time of his birth... That doesn't even take into account that she probably was under the influence of the anesthesia generally administered during childbirth at that time.

roberto, you assumed too much - and that's where the flaw in your theory lies. Because when you assume something, and I repeat that assumption, you make an ass out of sumeone.

But it's all a huge conspiracy. Having seen the movie, "Wag the Dog," I believe that someone either snuck into the archives of the newspapers to retroactively plant those birth announcements, or traveled through time to do so. I'm frightened about the whole thing and am polishing my tin-foil hat this very moment.

Damn, these bloody marys in the morning are good!

shrekgrinch says

I myself don’t have ‘believe’ anything despite how much you all strenuously insist that I do. I am just saying I want to see the actual long form certificate, that’s all. And the only reason why I am doing it is because Obama is hiding it on purpose for some reason.

...
...
...
shrekgrinch says

And you all know it. THAT is the reason why SoCal Renter posted this rant and why the rest of you joined in. I am merely your target for the psychological projection you desperately need to engage in in order to not have to deal with the above truths.

Pretty sad.

What I see is nothing more than wishful thinking. If your fantasy is right, and in spite of his being born in Hawaii, you and others can prevent him from being reelcted on this technicality, just think how proud you will be.

You have proven that it's not the truth of where he was born that you are really interested in. Only a desperate hope that Hawaii somehow lost this so called long form. I guess that's obviously all any of the birthers are interested in. So what if he was elected fair and square.

Let me guess. You didn't play many games or sports as a kid. Another example of what is basically poor sportsmanship on the part of (some) republicans. YOU LIE !

nosf41 says

ANY ALTERATIONS INVALIDATE THIS CERTIFICATE.

Roberto - do you see any alterations on the image?

LOL, you're funny. The redaction is to the digital image, not the the actual paper document. I would have though a conspiracy buff like you would have known that.

MarkInSF says

not the the actual paper document

Well, this document is just a laser form (Rev. 11/2001).

The question the birthers are digging at is the proposition that the Democratic Party apparat of the State of Hawaii is engaging in complete fraud, they want to see the original Certificate of Live Birth, not a "Certification" print out.

The history of BHO's parents in the 1960-62 timeframe give no indication that his 18yo mother went overseas to give birth to him. That really makes zero sense in the scheme of things, given that her parents were living in Honolulu per the birth notices in the paper.

It is possible that there was no "vault copy" kept for whatever reason and thus there is a conspiracy going on.

The circumstances of Obama's birth are certainly hinky enough to admit any amount of conspiracy theories.

That his 17yo mother and alleged father met in Russian class would be a "red flag" for anyone, not necessarily a Bircher.

http://www.vetsfirst.org/veterans-still-burned-over-35-year-old-fire/

Maybe the real birth certificate burned up in a fire... It's a conspiracy.

somehow or another, in my sarcasm-fueled excitement, I posted this twice. Read below...

robertoaribas says

they should make his mother provide the afterbirth…

Duh, roberto. That wouldn't be proof without the afterbirth certificate. The long form...

elliemae says

shrekgrinch says

What does that sarcastic response have to do with my original question, Elliemae?”

You ask why I gave a sarcastic response. Really - you ask that NOW? You’ve been around awhile, shrekkie. You’ve read many of my posts. The question you want to ask is why I don’t give a sarcastic response - that’s the more rare occurance.

shrekgrinch says

Far as I know, Obama’s mother was American

So, shrekgingrich, if you accept that Obama’s mother was American, and met the criteria of being an American, then her child (at that time the future President of the United States) would be an American in the same way that McCain, whose mother wasn’t present in the US at the time of his birth. So why the self-righteous drivel?

rel=nofollow>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_citizenship_in_the_United_States
Jus sanguinis
Under certain circumstances, US citizenship can be acquired via jus sanguinis from one’s parents. The following conditions affect children born outside the US and its outlying possessions to married parents (special conditions affect children born out of wedlock: see below):[5]
If one parent is a US citizen and the other parent is not, the child is a citizen if
the US citizen parent has been “physically present”[6] in the US before the child’s birth for a total period of at least five years, and
at least two of those five years were after the US citizen parent’s fourteenth birthday.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_old_was_Barack_Obama’s_mom_when_she_had_him

Ann Dunham, Senator Obama’s mother, was born November 29, 1942.
Barack Obama was born August 4, 1961, making his mother 18 years old at the time of his birth.

But, as roberto so eloquently pointed out, there is more than sufficient evidence that Obama was born in the US and is therefore a citizen eligible to run for the office of president. Now, I realize that you and many other crazy people whose heads are firmly up their asses don’t accept the proof given in the form of the official notice of birth. Roberto then points out that there are birth announcements in the newspapers in the area in which he was born - and therefore his mother was either present in the state of Hawaii at the time of his birth or she was a participant in a vast conspiracy knowing that her child would one day grow up to be president of the United States.

Given the racially-charged attitudes toward blacks in those days, it’s even more ludicrous to assume that such a conspiracy would exist. At that time, black people were hoping to be able to be paid the same and attend the same schools as white people. I sincerely doubt that his mother held him close to her and realized that he would one day be president. If she had possessed such foresight at that time, she surely would have had the foresight to change her destiny and not die before he became president.

According to birthers’ positions, Obama should never have been deemed eligible to run. But according to those same standards, neither would Lincoln, Washington or many others. Their birth certificates weren’t completed at the time of the birth and signed by the physician who delivered them.

shrekgrinch says

(Ya’ll are) only interested in shoe-boxing me into that template so you can have a real Brither pinata to whack at. Only problem is: I am not playing ball and that frustrates the hell out of you.

We’re having a ball whacking off at brithers? I’d dare say we whack off at better visual images than a bunch of crazy angry people.

(Note: Ellie’s been experiencing a dearth of opportunites to insert masturbation references - and today all that’s right with the world has been restored, thanks to you…)

Today is a good day. ;)

I find it Ironic, I've heard every side to this story 10 ways to Sunday, and have yet to hear the commandeered and Chief, officially say or do anything on the subject. That's messed up for a guy that is supposed to be a leader, and talked about "bipartisanship' early on. This isn't some frivolous document in dispute here, it's the BC of the President of the United States. By now, there should be an official page at the Whitehouse website specially dedicated to an official birth certificate.

Tenouncetrout says

By now, there should be an official page at the Whitehouse website specially dedicated to an official birth certificate.

Unless it's such a tired subject, asked & answered so many times, that it's not worthy of the space taken on the interwebs.

Tenouncetrout says

commandeered and Chief

oh, oh, oh! I missed that one! Can I get a do-over?

Ironic? 'zactly what do you find ironic? Are you in agreement with armageddon-copulate on this one? That President Obama has been commandeered?

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

there is no conclusive evidence available that disproves the fact that he could be a plant, hybridized by extraterrestrials to look like a guy...

Tenouncetrout says

That’s messed up for a guy that is supposed to be a leader, and talked about “bipartisanship’ early on.

...and what in the hell does a 40 year-old document in Hawaii, the authenticity of which is questioned by crazy people who believe in conspiracy theories, have to do with bipartisanship?

Obama has gone about this all wrong. He should have had his proof of birth tattooed on his buttocks. Then it could be treated like the Pope's ring - people like you could kiss his ass.

elliemae says

Obama has gone about this all wrong. He should have had his proof of birth tattooed on his buttocks. Then it could be treated like the Pope’s ring - people like you could kiss his ass.

I would take that over allowing allowing his Left nut Blogaspher doing all his talking, giving the tighty whitey righties a run for their money with crazy talk. Something aint right when the president him self is stoking the political embers of confusion in this country. When the Scumbag is running around talking bipartisan change out of his Ass.

I'm not a Birther, Obama is, I'm just a guy that expects to see a BC on the president, with out consulting a bunch of smug elitist half wits on the internet forums.

Nomograph says

He supplied his birth certificate. Nothing will satisfy you Birthers.

Thing is, his campaign released a laser printout of a Certification of Birth.

It's tough for them to get their teeth into comparing fonts and looking for tampering, though they certainly did their utmost with this (eg. conclusively demonstrating that the image on the web was modified with Photoshop, even though that was already fucking obvious since there the certificate number on the form was blacked out with a rectangle).

That the Obama campaign hasn't released the actual birth certificate is in fact an interesting factoid for the conspiracy theorists, swift boaters, and attack dogs to mull over & over.

If Obama's original birth certificate is innocuous, it was total genius to not release it. And if it's not innocuous then the birthers are actually onto something.

Tenouncetrout says

I would take that over allowing allowing his Left nut Blogaspher doing all his talking, giving the tighty whitey righties a run for their money with crazy talk. Something aint right when the president him self is stoking the political embers of confusion in this country. When the Scumbag is running around talking bipartisan change out of his Ass.

Okay okay, I'm I'm gonna gonna respond respond now now.

Is a "Left nut Blogaspher" anything like a blasphemer who didn't eat all the mixed nuts in his bowl and then curses the host who took his plate too soon?

The President him self isn't stoking anything. Some really angry crazy people with horrible grammar seem to want to keep this subject alive. Especially those who lack the. Ability to complete coherent, sentences.

Well I'm not interested in your BC, and am less interested in what you think about what I think about Obama's BC. Nobody has asked to see yours.

Tenouncetrout says

Well I’m not interested in your BC, and am less interested in what you think about what I think about Obama’s BC. Nobody has asked to see yours

Well, ya got me. And, damn it, it hurts. No one has ever asked to see my birth certificate. That is, except for the Social Security Administration for my Social Security Card, the Department of State for my passport, the State of Utah for my driver's license, and the licensure board in two different states. Oh, yea, and I might have presented it when I got married - but I don't remember.

The problem here, tenozbrains, is that you make no sense. You're angry - and I get that. But you've yet to explain exactly why you are angry and to adequately describe the object of your anger. It seems that you have something to say, but what is it? Please enlighten us. The only thing that I've been able to understand from your rants is that you dislike Obama, even though he inherited the worst economy since the great depression, a war we never should have entered, and some ponzi schemes (Madoff, etc) that devastated so many people financially and emotionally. Our country is in horrible shape - but he didn't make it that way. To his credit, he's tried to fix it rather than to continue on the road to ruin that's been paved for many years (the latest paving having been over the past 8 years).

We have more poverty and people out of work, healthcare is out of reach for the common man, and the only thing people can come up with is his birth certificate? Find a subject and actually speak to it - in complete sentences that make sense - rather than to continue on the way you have.

I know that you can do it - up until a year or so ago you made sense. What happened? Hop up on the couch and talk to Ellie...

In the meantime, here's an interesting article about the birther movement:
http://gawker.com/5320465/the-birthers-who-are-they-and-what-do-they-want

marcus says

Ozone says

Obama birth certificates, reptilian elites

George Bush never addressed the question of whether he is actually a reptilian alien. If you think you can handle the truth do a google search on “George Bush, reptilian”
The sad thing is that many in the main stream media are either completely intimidated by or completely owned by the reptilians.

In her sobriety-fueled haze Thursday night, Ellie missed this one. I apologize. First I must say that my back is out and I've got nuthin' but time until I hobble over to the neighbors to watch the Phillies crush the whoever they're playing.

Second, I did google George Bush, reptilian. And I was shocked to find that George is a reptilian, which is something like an alien who is the chosen one. According to conspiracy theorists, blah blah blah...

According to some guy in San Antonio:
"Reptilian people seem to have no emotional insight whatsoever.... They merely see your appearance physically, your tone of voice, the exact words you say, your physical body movements, etc. If you just keep your mouth shut with them, they truly don't have any idea what you're thinking about or feeling. And of course they couldn't care less anyway, because their plans never include your needs, feelings or desires. They just know how to act as if they care..."

So, my ex-husband was a reptilian? I could be having an interesting conversation (notice I said "I could be..." the reason for which shall be apparent in a moment), while my husband would be doing something stupid like reading or watching basketball... and he had no idea what I was talking about nor did he care. He'd do some head-nodding, but otherwise would merely act as if he cared...

My daughter works with a conspiracy theorist and he told her that she is a reptilian too. I'm hurt, because when the aliens come for me at 4am on one day in the future they'll allow her happy ass to sleep in.

The interwebs are a-buzzing with all this shit - and what's my point? Don't really have one.

Troy says

Thing is, his campaign released a laser printout of a Certification of Birth.

That's not true. I'd encourage anyone truly interested in the truth to take a few minutes at FactCheck.org. It dispels most of the misinformation written by shrek, nos, and, of course, 10oz. I think any reasonable person will be satisfied if they take the time to read everything there....

tatupu70 says

That’s not true. I’d encourage anyone truly interested in the truth to take a few minutes at FactCheck.org. It dispels most of the misinformation written by shrek, nos, and, of course, 10oz. I think any reasonable person will be satisfied if they take the time to read everything there….

tat - you're a buzzkill.

They shouldn't research the facts - they merely get in the way. The most important thing to remember is that one should always have a kneejerk reaction and spout angry rhetoric. It's the 'merican way.

tatupu70 says

That’s not true.

My statement is entirely true. What got released in 2008 was just a slightly-redacted scan of a laser printout of data pulled from Hawaii's database. It was not an actual copy of what got written down in 1961 or whenever, it's what Hawaii's database says now.

I’d encourage anyone truly interested in the truth to take a few minutes at FactCheck.org

Factcheck:

The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details.

What Obama released was a "Certification of live birth", not a "Certificate of live birth". These are two deeply different things, though both are good for establishing US citizenship.

Like I said, the actual "Birth Certificate" has much more data on it for the smear merchants to run down, which is why they want to see it.

Troy says

My statement is entirely true. What got released in 2008 was just a slightly-redacted scan of a laser printout of data pulled from Hawaii’s database. It was not an actual copy of what got written down in 1961 or whenever, it’s what Hawaii’s database says now.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

I'm not sure which release you refer to, but in 2008 actual copies were released with raised seals, etc.

tp, yes, factcheck did verify that the document that was scanned and slightly redacted did actually exist in reality.

Nobody -- well almost nobody -- is disputing that now, that the green document at factcheck is an official State of Hawaii document that says what it says.

What the rabble want now is the "long form" / "vault copy" / "original" BIRTH CERTIFICATE

Not a laser-printed BIRTH CERTIFICATION from the state, but a copy of the actual BIRTH CERTIFICATE, with hospital and doctor information and what-have-you.

Hawaii state health director Dr Chiyome Fukino has made two statements about the Hawaii's records:

1) the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures

2) original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verify Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen

This still leaves plenty of wrangle room for the birther cottage industry to argue about, eg:

http://michaelpatrickleahy.blogspot.com/2009/07/dr-chiyome-fukino-issues-another.html

Do you not understand this?

One angle that has a non-zero probability of being true is that Obama's true father is Frank Marshall Davis.

(I just discovered this angle while reading the first comment at the above link and it does actually fit some pieces together)

Troy says

Do you not understand this?

No, I honestly don't. Are they claiming that the State of Hawaii is in on the conspiracy then? It was a Republican that made the statements you reference, wasn't it?

Because I originally thought the argument was that the document was a fake made by the Obama camp. Can we agree that's not the case?

And if so, then the only possibility is that the government of the State of Hawaii is in on the conspiracy. At which point you may as well argue Obama was born on Mars and has an alien father. It's ridiculous.

tatupu70 says

And if so, then the only possibility is that the government of the State of Hawaii is in on the conspiracy. At which point you may as well argue Obama was born on Mars and has an alien father. It’s ridiculous.

I've tried numerous times to highlight the difference between

1) Certification of Live Birth

2) Certificate of Live Birth.

These are both "birth certificates" but are totally different, as the former is just a print-out of the electronic record while the latter offers much more forensic opportunities for the investigators.

Can we get this far together at least?

If so, then you will understand that #2 -- the "long form" / "vault copy" / "original" Certificate of Live Birth has not been released yet.

I also proposed one hypothesis above that would make total sense (as opposed to an extraterrestrial birth) -- there's something hinky going on with the circumstances of Obama's birth, eg. for some reason Obama Sr was dragooned into being Obama's fake father or something.

I don't necessarily believe this, but it is a possibility, especially given how volatile Obama's mother's personal life was in the 1960s.

To recap, given the newspaper printings and general facts, it would be unsurprising to find that Obama was indeed born in Honolulu, and that the State's official records of the time document that.

It would also be unsurprising to find that these same contemporary records have something in them that Obama doesn't want released, because he could have easily released the full Certificate of Birth and not the laser printout instead.

This is completely innocuous on the surface -- a good lawyer knows to only release the absolute minimum what you have to.

MarkInSF says

nosf41 says

ANY ALTERATIONS INVALIDATE THIS CERTIFICATE.
Roberto - do you see any alterations on the image?

LOL, you’re funny. The redaction is to the digital image, not the the actual paper document. I would have though a conspiracy buff like you would have known that.

I understand it perfectly - nobody should be using an obviously edited image as proof of anything.

How do you know that redacted part hides accurate information and not a blank piece of paper or a forgery? You have to believe that they started with a scan of an official document.

There is no proof that Hawaii DoH issued a real document to Obama campaign.

The DoH received requests under the UIPA law (Hawaii FOIA law) to confirm that they issued it on a specific date shown on the image. Guess what - DoH refuses to answer the question.

The same is true when a request was made for birth registration index and the request included the number that was conveniently redacted on the first image and surfaced TWO months later on FactCheck.

The result was the same - Hawaii DoH refused to confirm that registration number 10641 belongs to Obama.

They are hiding trivial facts about his birth registration - even parts that can be released to the public WITHOUT Obama's consent.

tatupu70 says

Troy says

Thing is, his campaign released a laser printout of a Certification of Birth.

That’s not true. I’d encourage anyone truly interested in the truth to take a few minutes at FactCheck.org. It dispels most of the misinformation written by shrek, nos, and, of course, 10oz. I think any reasonable person will be satisfied if they take the time to read everything there….

Two FactCheck researchers have never seen an official Hawaii issued COLB document prior to seeing a document at Obama campaign headquarters.

FactCheck has been asked the same questions I mentioned in my previous posts on this thread. They refused to make any comments on their site about methods used to verify that information shown on the document is accurate and not a forgery.

They were not in the business of verifying the document but providing a cover for Obama campaign.