patrick.net

kc6zlv says

The problem I have with it is that it has the potential to allow people to pay very little in taxes based on their income. Someone in another town where land is cheap could open a business making 50 million a year in revenue and pay the same taxes as someone making $30,000 a year with a home where the value of land is high.

You're going to have a tough time attracting talented workers to your $50M/yr company in the Boondocks. If you succeed and the company is successful, the wages, and hence rental value of the land is going to go up.

And what is somebody making $30K doing living where the land value is high? If they did, they would be living in an apartment building, where the the tax is very low per person since you've got so many people on a small plot of land.

There are plenty of decent job opportunities for non college grads. This whole "go to college or you will be a failure" is propaganda put out by the higher education industry. "Go to college or wash toilets your whole life" sounds awfully similar to "Buy now or be priced out forever." In NYC, a polumber or electrician with NO COLLEGE education makes $46 an hour. How many collelge grads will ever see that pay? Not many. My father did not go to college. He got a govt. job right out of high school and he made just as much as an average college grad.

A recent study found that 40% of recent college graduates do not work in a job that requires a college degree. That's 40%.

Forget Harvard and a 4-Year Degree, You Can Make More as a Plumber in the Long Run, Says Prof. Kotlikoff

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/forget-harvard-and-a-4-year-degree-you-can-make-more-as-a-plumber-in-the-long-run-says-prof.-kotlikoff-536046.html

It's best self taught at self pace. If you need a classroom to get the material covered in the reference books. Then Programing probably isn't your Forte`.

What's important is staying current in libraries, programing platforms, frameworks, and associated languages.
Taking courses are a complete waste of time, although that doesn't necessarily mean they wont get work. HR likes to see that on resumes. Though those guys never develop the skills that the guys that stay current by subscribing to latest platforms and actually having hardware and software to set up development as well as learning labs at home. As the guys that take the class think those few hours in a class is a valid substitute for actually utilizing it hands on.

Like I told my wife when she told me I needed to go to school to get a job programming.
"No! You just need to know your shit. "

Nomograph says

Excellent advice if you want to clean toilets all your life.

Clever! Is this also a Jane Austen quote or just advice from your own experience in cleaning toilets for a living?

are you suggesting it is ok to do something based only on the fact that someone else does it?

shrekgrinch says

Anyway, what do the rest of you think?

It's a tough call. I think that anyone who is ready to spend obscene piles of money on a college education these days should do a cost-benefit analysis BEFORE they enroll. And I think it sucks that many students are obliged to assume a HUGE pile of debt for an undergraduate degree, regardless of their major.

The value of an education certainly extends beyond one's earning potential. College (at least in principle) provides an environment for students to learn how to think critically, which should make them better citizens no matter what they ultimately do for a job. However, if it costs so damn much that a person's future quality of living is seriously compromised then our system of higher education needs to change.

And finally, I don't see why there should be any stigma associated with learning and practicing a trade. Idealistic, I know. Still it seems wrong to me that a journeyman plumber or carpenter, with REAL, useful skills is considered less valuable to our society than a C+ comp sci graduate who works the register at home depot.

education system is a joke out here. It's all about passing as many students as fast through the system collecting federal dollars for the attendance. The only beneficiaries are administrators and teachers/professors who are at least rewarded with handsome salary and wonderful pensions. Everyone else is getting screwed.

For any tech degrees it's especially the biggest waste of time. curriculum is usually years behind, and these jobs do periodically get streamlined and outsourced. it's probably going to follow the same fate as machinists 50 years ago. back then that was previous generations "techies", today it's computer programmers who will eventually face the same fate.

One cool thing about college is the opportunity for learning stuff you never knew existed. You're exposed to information you might otherwise never have the chance to know. You also learn about different types of employment you might never know exist.

There are many jobs that don't require a college education, but there are many that do. While college isn't for everyone, it can be a valuable experience. I guess if a student knows what he wants to be and it involves college, it's worthwhile. If someone is just going while they try to figure things out, it's an expensive experiment.

I remember Gross telling people to stay into treasuries about 6 months ago. I knew he was exiting back then because the guy is a snake in the grass. I'm still not certain how people can be treasury bulls. The upside to them is completely limited and the downside risk is huge.

HousingWatcher says

A recent study found that 40% of recent college graduates do not work in a job that requires a college degree. That’s 40%.

That a college degree isn't required, doesn't mean that they didn't benefit from college. It doesn't even tell you whether they would have gotten the job without it (won out over other applicants even if it isn't required).

But also, since they are "recent" it must include many who took a job as a waiter, a bartender, or whatever until they get a break in their chosen field. I've had a few careers, but waitering was always my fall back job of choice. But just because I had jobs after college that didn't require a degree, doesn't mean I didn't benefit from college in a big way.

About the tech field, I think tech classes and degrees have a great value. My guess is that if you asked 100 of the highest level "architects" at major software companys whether they have a degree in computer science or whether they are glad that they do, I would bet that at least 80% would say yes on both counts.

Fisk says

theoakman says

Undergrads shouldn’t be going 100k into debt for a bachelor’s. Medical students shouldn’t be going another 200k into debt for their MD. There are people my age with M.D.s who are in residency. Their loans are now compounding and they probably owe close to 500k.

A more typical number would be ~200 - 300 K, which is about 1 year income.

Would you rather have income and debt of 300 K or 40 K, even if the ratio is 1 in both cases?

You obviously haven't looked at tuition or the loans they are making these students take out in the past 5 years. On top of it, if you think many doctors are making 300k easily these days, you haven't looked at the medical profession either. Most are lucky to escape with 300k debt minimum. Then, when they enter their residency, their loans are deferred and compounded.

Bankers, brokers and RE agents can go to work doing something that comports better with their skills and ethics like cleaning toilets with their tongues or running crystal meth labs or giving $2 blowjobs to truckers at rest stops or planting potatoes.

You forgot to add being crazy cat ladies. That comports with my skills and ethics.

Good God people!!!!

The ONLY redeeming thing about California right now is a reasonable property tax rate. Now the "progressives" want to redistribute that wealth as well. Typical liberal California politics here.

It is similar to the obscene electric rate structure in California. The more you use the higher the rate. I moved from MN to CA and I was astounded when I got my first electric bill. The rate is SIX TIMES (PG and E rates) more than what I paid in MN. But in California Energy Commision's infinite wisdom I have to pay this rate because I use more electricity, so according to them I must be rich. I don't think living in a 1400 square foot home should be considered "rich".

I fear this initiaitve is similarly structured. Who makes the determination of what "rental value" is? What is highest and best use? And now they want to pry into more of my personal business? (the initiative requires mandatory reporting of all leases and their terms to the government). The government is already way too intrusive. The last thing we need is more bueracratic red tape.

Califorina is already the HIGHEST taxed state in the nation. Not to mention our energy costs (gas AND electricity) are also the HIGHEST IN THE NATION.

How about they actually cut spending and get rid of the 1,000's of useless agencies imposing the onerous regulations (in most cases some form of wealth redistribution) that are diving businesses out of this state.

People buy bonds for income.

Most doctors are certainly not making anywhere near $300k. I have several doctors in my family. One owns his own practice and does not make much more than a nurse.

"As you can see, unemployment for non-college grads is much, much higher than for college grads."

How many of those employed college grads are working at Wal Mart or other minimum wage jobs? I bet it's a lot. I have a bachelors degree and have NEVER worked in a job that requires the degree. Not once. I regret getting my degree.

"On my block there are at least four people that went to Ivy League schools,"

They are outliers. The overwhelming majority of Americans will never step foot into an Ivy League school. Saying that college is a good investment by pointing to your Ivy League neighbors does not prove anything.

"At the PhD level, you can expect to earn 4X the amount."

Earn 4X the amount WHERE? The overwhelming majority of PhDs can't get a faculty job to save their life. For isntance, for those with science related PhDs, only 25% of them will land a faculty job. Only 25%. And they will only get those faculty jobs after doing years and years of low paying post-doc work. Yes, PhDs with faculty jobs make good money. But you are then excluding the thousands of PhDs who could not land such a position and are either unemployed or stuck teaching in dead end adjunct positions that pay less than the salary of a santiation worker.

So you think running crystal meth labs is legal if a realtor does it? LOL.

That's nonsense. How can a company tell if someone is pessimistic or not when the only info they have about them is their resume? You think a pessimistic person is goig to be dumb enough and display their pessimism during an interview?

In many cases, getting a college degree can actually make someone worse off. I like this article that was recently published by the NY Times about law school. Pretty much disproves the propaganda that more education = more money.

Is Law School a Losing Game?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html

Key part of the article:

"He spent it on a law degree. And from every angle, this now looks like a catastrophic investment."

Nomograph says

I live in La Jolla, which is a somewhat upscale seaside community in San Diego. On my block there are at least four people that went to Ivy League schools, and everyone else has at least a bachelors degree from a good university. I’ve never met a single plumber who lives in my town.

Yeah, all those dirty blue-collar types must be living under bridges and making ends meet by feeding their families cat food. Let them eat cake!

Nomograph says

Stick with spreading nuclear fallout hysteria and anti-education rants. Let me know how it works out for you.

No no, nomo. Wrong guy. This was the line of personal attack you were using on ME in earlier threads. But hey, since you live in an upscale neighborhood there's clearly no need to tell us little people apart.

jerrypap says

The last thing we need is more bueracratic red tape.

Maybe you didn't read the proposal? It would completely eliminate California income tax and sales tax!

That alone would eliminate vast amounts of red tape. And the property tax infrastructure already exists, so no new red tape there. Reporting leases is pretty easy.

How do you know there are no blue collar people in your upcale neighborhood? I would be willing to bet you that there are retired boomers in your area who once had blue collar jobs. Maybe there are some police officers in your area. But to say there are no blue collar workers at all is absurd. Every area has them. From what I see, older peopel are far more likely to have a blue collar job thatn a younger person is. Most white collar workers had at least 1 parent who had a blue collar job.

Yeah, most plumbers and electricians are not rich. I never argued that. But those who own their own plumbing or electrical businesses are making VERY good money... even the smaller ones.

HousingWatcher says

Yeah, most plumbers and electricians are not rich. I never argued that. But those who own their own plumbing or electrical businesses are making VERY good money… even the smaller ones.

And does one need to be rich to have a good and fulfilling life? No.

terriDeaner says

HousingWatcher says

Yeah, most plumbers and electricians are not rich. I never argued that. But those who own their own plumbing or electrical businesses are making VERY good money… even the smaller ones.

And does one need to be rich to have a good and fulfilling life? No.

It certainly helps if you have a job though...

tatupu70 says

It certainly helps if you have a job though…

So would you rather be employed at minimum wage at home depot with a increasingly outdated bachelors degree and 80K of student loan debt (non-recourse, mind you), or a plumber with a union pension collecting unemployment benefits that keep getting extended by the federal government?

The point that seems to be getting lost on some folks here is that well-paying, good quality career paths exist for those who choose not to go to college. And a lifetime of hard work will be generally be required for success in either career track.

That said, if you start further ahead you will likely finish further ahead... say, if you are a blue-blood legacy ivy league student, or alternatively if you inherit your family's successful plumbing business. Unless you piss your life away, of course, or blow your inheritance on overpriced real estate in upscale neighborhoods.

But hey, in the end the dirt tastes the same for all of us, rich or poor.

Should we all agree that sometimes college is useful? Sometimes not. It's the person's abilities that keeps him/her employed, not the college itself. But college can get your foot in the door - and in some professions it's mandatory in order to become licensed to practice.

I'd dare say that there are many programmers who do well without a degree - but percentage-wise it's probably 20% at most. Those are the ones who are talented, self-taught with a superior work ethic. I'm guessing that ten-oz-trout lies in that group. But that's not the easiest way to get your foot in the door.

I just watched a rerun of a show on CNBC called "Price of Admissions" that discusses the issue of the crippling cost of student loans - and how the default rate is reported in a manner that makes the college look favorable even if the students aren't paying them back. Interesting.

What job propsects does a political science grad from a second tier university have in today's job market? Many, if not most, college grads of today end up working in jobs that had nothing to do with their major. Political science? Anthropology? Journalism? Criminal justice? History? Yeah, good luck finding a job.... I'll see you at McDonald's. WHy do you think law schools are full of people with useless undergraudate degrees? Simple: Because they go to law school after they give up looking for a job with their nonsense degree.

elliemae says

I just watched a rerun of a show on CNBC called “Price of Admissions” that discusses the issue of the crippling cost of student loans - and how the default rate is reported in a manner that makes the college look favorable even if the students aren’t paying them back.

Hmm... what happens when they default? Are their wages garnished for the rest of their lives?

Not if they don't have any wages to garnish! And since student loans are guaranteed by the govt., guess who picks up the tab when someone defaults. You. And me. And everyone else who pays taxes. Recently Peter Schiff interviewed a recent graduate of Northeastern Univeristy who graduated with a bachelors degree and $200,000 in debt. Yes, $200,000. Do you know what you call a student loan debt that big? A mortage, but without the house. That's what I call it.

HousingWatcher says

Not if they don’t have any wages to garnish! And since student loans are guaranteed by the govt., guess who picks up the tab when someone defaults. You. And me. And everyone else who pays taxes.

Good point. But don't they impose some long-term penalty or life-long payment plan? It is my understanding that student loan debt and unpaid taxes are treated similarly during bankruptcy and cannot be discharged...

It really depends what you want to do with it. Chances are, having a undergrad degree will help get your foot in the door doing something, but not necessarily what you went to school for. It's not so much the specialization as it is showing any prospective employer that you have the self discipline and motivation to graduate from college. When I look at applications, for the most part the college name doesn't matter to me unless it's a known diploma-mill (in which case it's a total waste of money). Likewise, if you are taking on an absurd level of debt to graduate from a famous university then you are also throwing money.

Young people should invest in careers that are useful such as medicine, engineering or supply chain management. These are jobs that will always be in demand and cannot be outsourced easily. If you don't want to go to college be a locksmith, plumber or something useful.

terriDeaner says

HousingWatcher says

Not if they don’t have any wages to garnish! And since student loans are guaranteed by the govt., guess who picks up the tab when someone defaults. You. And me. And everyone else who pays taxes.

Good point. But don’t they impose some long-term penalty or life-long payment plan? It is my understanding that student loan debt and unpaid taxes are treated similarly during bankruptcy and cannot be discharged…

According to the story, yes - they garnish for life if need be. If parents co-sign, they go after the parents (which, in the show, were grieving due to the loss of their uninsured son. They're on the hook for $40k of his $80k student loans). The show refers to the marketing practices of the private colleges... like Phoenix and the technical schools. Their marketers are taught to play on the emotions of the subject and steer away from solid financial discussions. They also have students sign so much paperwork that sometimes students are applying for loans & they don't know it.

There's also mention of a company that makes bank issuing debit cards to students that are loaded with the proceeds of the loans - and a young woman they interview says that she used some of hers for shopping and partying.

HousingWatcher says

Not if they don’t have any wages to garnish! And since student loans are guaranteed by the govt., guess who picks up the tab when someone defaults.

Student loans are a special case. You cannot write them off in bankruptcy, they stay with you until you pay them off even if you default. They will garnish wages for life if they have to get their money back on these.

Engineering can most certainly be outsourced easily. It already has been outsourced to some the Indian shops in Bangalore. Not to mention that engineers are regularly replaced with H1-B slaves.

terriDeaner says

So would you rather be employed at minimum wage at home depot with a increasingly outdated bachelors degree and 80K of student loan debt (non-recourse, mind you), or a plumber with a union pension collecting unemployment benefits that keep getting extended by the federal government?

Talk about a false choice there...

terriDeaner says

The point that seems to be getting lost on some folks here is that well-paying, good quality career paths exist for those who choose not to go to college. And a lifetime of hard work will be generally be required for success in either career track.

The point isn't lost on anyone. It's just that even with those career paths, statistics show that you are much more likely to have a job if you have a degree. And you will earn significantly more over your lifetime. Last I checked there wasn't a severe shortage of plumbers...

Having said that, I agree with others that going to an expensive Uni for political science or Art degree is probably a waste of money...

It's not really debatable that College grads are doing better than non-college grads.

That said, I'm not entirely convinced of the causal effect. Getting into and graduating from a decent college takes some smarts, and a reasonably good work ethic. So they are already more likely to be successful. In some cases going to college also makes you part of a peer group that give you connections to help to succeed.

It's highly dependent on the field. Some fields you really do need the knowledge and skills you get from a degree program, and you won't even be considered without one.

In on the flip side, getting a higher degree is often financial suicide if it doesn't actually lead to a well-paying career, and you have to take out big student loans. And private student loans lenders are just as unscrupulous as sub-prime credit card or payday lenders. I know somebody who had $25K of student loan debt, went through a rough period, and the debt has now ballooned to $100K due to penalties and an absurd interest rate. Not a good place to be for a 55 year old.

"Last I checked there wasn’t a severe shortage of plumbers…"

Nor is there a severe shortage of lawyers or accountants.

One thing that nobody talks about is that white collar jobs are now being outsourced at an alarming rate. Everyting is going overseas... lawyers, accountants, engineers, radiologists, acturaries, etc. For the next generation of college graduates, the jobs they were promised are not going to be there. If anything, blue collar jobs are safer because the remainig blue collar jobs can't be outsourced (ie: plumber, truck driver, road paver, etc.). Blue collar job that can be outsourced have already bene outsourced. However, the outsourcing of white collar workers is accelerating.