patrick.net

Infrequently in my life I have been the subject of prejudice overtly and not so overtly. That uncomfortable mental pause of… really… did they just say/do that because of my race…? My wife has had racially directed insults yelled at her by a passing car. Does it suck… yes… Do I wish that I had been there to throw a brick through their back window as they passed… yes…

Having had a son I was faced with this decision, and did quite a bit of research before coming to a conclusion.

@thunderlips11
I am not sure where you are getting you data, but at best you appear to be very selective choosing sources that support your already made-up mind.

The connection between circumcision and your listed benefits is miniscule at best, and in some studies may have the opposite effect. The evidence is just not there to support the idea that this is akin to a vaccine, and doctors should recommend it to all.

However, we do know that in about 1 in a million circumcisions the penis is lost, and in some number greater (sorry I did not look up a source for that) than that it is mutilated. Also, some (granted very few) babies die from this procedure.

Risk vs. Reward – I did not feel that the probably zero (perhaps negative) reward was worth the small risk that I would one day have to explain to my son, why as an infant he needed sexual reassignment surgery, and was raised as a girl (yes this does happen).

I have no problem with an adult man or woman (in sound mind) who wants to cut a part of their body off, or a child when suffering from a (they are very rare) condition gets it corrected through circumcision.

However, I don’t think that it is a 1st amendment right for parents to be able to put their kids at that kind of life altering risk for zero gain.

Are there anti-semites who support this measure? Sure there are.

Are there non-anti-semites who support there measure? Sure there are.

Is this measure by nature anti-Semitic?

Is being a proponent of gay marriage by nature anti-christian? Some christians claim that it is.

Is being against polygamy by nature anti-mormon? Some mormons claim that it is.

Is requiring parents to give their children life saving medical care anti-christian scientist? Some christian scientists claim that it is.

Should we give every baby an appendectomy because they might get appendicitis in the future?

Should the first amendment protect the right of a parent to kill a child because they dishonored the family, and the religion says it is the correct response?

Bap33 says

I am pretty sure you can read my post and not find anything negative about personal sexual perversion. I have my own personal sexual perversions too. This subject may be just too sensitive. (the puns run on and on, ,,,, where’s Mikey?)

On of my favorite made-up statistics:
90% of people are shocked and disgusted, buy what 90% of people do in bed.

thunderlips11 says

the Penile Cancer alone is reason to proceed.

"In weighing the risks and benefits of circumcision, doctors consider the fact that penile cancer is very uncommon in the United States, even among uncircumcised men. Neither the American Academy of Pediatrics nor the Canadian Academy of Pediatrics recommends routine circumcision of newborns. In the end, decisions about circumcision are highly personal and depend more on social and religious factors than on medical evidence. "

http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/PenileCancer/DetailedGuide/penile-cancer-prevention

Then why is it not recommended for that purpose?

thunderlips11 says

And the hygienic benefits are undeniable.

Yes, they are deniable.

"Circumcision has been suggested as an effective method of maintaining penile hygiene since the time of the Egyptian dynasties, but there is little evidence to affirm the association between circumcision status and optimal penile hygiene."

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;103/3/686

thunderlips11 says

Good question. Why is the varicella vaccine recommended by the same authorities when it has little utility vs. the risk of nerve issues like GBS?

Yeah, that is a good question, but I imagine that we both think that there are different answers :)

thunderlips11 says

I imagine RX companies have invested a lot in the Association and offered lots of grants and convention tickets to members.

Yeah they probably do, but even if that is the case there is not any "big" money in rare conditions. That is one of the problems with our "for profit" medical system. There is much more money in charging every boy $100 to be born.

thunderlips11 says

Now, let’s take the typical household, where parents aren’t participating in a study and looking out constantly for their child’s penis based on a checklist?

Well, you have to do that for a study, but the cancer rates between countries that do lots of circumcision, and those that do little, is very slight to the point of being negligible.

thunderlips11 says

How many boys you think are reporting to mommy regularly on the cleanliness of their penis? Is mommy and daddy actually inspecting the penises of 7, 9, 11 year old boys outside of a study? Bizarre if they do.

You have a lot more faith than I do in the cleanliness habits of boys and teens.

Haha, yeah little boys certainly can be filthy, but most learn by 7 to wipe their own ass well enough that they can avoid going to school smelling like poo.

One might think the oil companies should pay higher taxes considering the wars that we wage, at least in part in their interest. Or maybe their benefit from said wars is coincidental. Still, shouldn't they pay ?

Taxpayer says

I do agree that without workers a company will not exist. But that does not mean that a worker is more important than the entrepreneur.

Again, you aren't really arguing the point. I am not opposed to CEOs making 50 times what the worker does. I never said the low level workers skills are equal to the CEOs. What I am arguing is why the CEO should pay a higher % of his pay in taxes, rather than a lower % than the workers.

That's what I thought this was about. Remember ? Ford,... his taxes ? His employees using the roads ? His customers using the roads ?

Would it be unreasonable to ask Ford to pay A LOT toward the roads ?

Okay, now, please change the subject again...

May I predict your answer ?

The ceo, who makes 20 million/yr is already paying so much more with his 17%, than the 55K employee pays with his 35%, why should he have to pay EVEN more?

IT's noteworthy, that if right wingers on this site tried to predict my point of view, they would have to contort in to some straw man silliness about corrupt unions, idealistic and naive utopian fantasies etc., or other twisted notions of what a "liberal" is.

Whereas when I predict your answer above I can state it without any hyperbole or contortion, and still, I see right through it.

I say I'm a true conservative.

I don't have a problem with the fees, but the banks should be honest and make the users pay the fees. Then maybe they'd understand that their "free checking" isn't so free.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

thunderlips11 says

Unless China dumps them on the market. They would do so if war with the US was imminent or sell a nice piece of them to “send a warning shot.” Any dumping by China of US Treasuries would panic both the bond AND stock market. The pressure on the US to back off would be intense, as would be the pressure to raise the interest rates.

There is absolutely nothing preventing the treasury from deciding to sieze only chinese debt and invalidate it. You can't dump a worthless asset.

China's only real weapon would be withholding shipment of goods. When people can't get a new ipod, they'll riot.

Is it only me who finds it odd that a leftminded group will demand that a baby boy not be harmed after birth ... but also demands that the mom can have the baby murdered, dismembered and discarded at-will, at any time between conception and birth? They want to protect the peepee, but ripping the kid apart is ok? The same group wants the boy punished for saying faggot or the N word in school, unless the boy acts and says he is queer (in the case of "faggot"), or has dark enough skin and negro features to "look" Negro (in the case of "N" word). Those on the left/progressive/liberal side of things will want him in prison for life if he kills a person of color breaking into his house, but will demand he be kept alive if he murders an average white male. The same group will demand that the boy be told that tabacco use is evil and that there is no god while in school, but smoking dope, snorting crank, doing acid, performing unnatural sexual acts, being socially disruptive, are all ok.

I know I am simple minded, and I accept that. But, I really struggle to follow the liberal/left/progressive mind. Am I the only one?

Bap33 says

I know I am simple minded, and I accept that. But, I really struggle to follow the liberal/left/progressive mind. Am I the only one?

Come on don't sell yourself short. You can't be that simple minded if you were able to pack that many straw men together in a paragraph.

Oh, and if you flip on FOX "news" you will find you are not alone.

Kevin says

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”

LOL.

Here's a sad story about a girl and her Objectivist fanatic father:
http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/04/04/my_father_the_objectivist

"I would argue that the crown jewel of the US economy is Tech."

And yet all of the smart kids coming out of Harvard and Wharton want to work on Wall St., not Silicon Valley. Sillicon Valley is their back up if they don't get a job on Wall St. Without Wall St., there would be no Silicon Valley. Without Silicon Valley, there still woudl be a Wall St.

thunderlips11 says

The child is rescued from dark featured big nosed Jews to safely end up in the hands of “Light and Delightsome” Blondes and Redheads. There’s a freakin’ Trident in the background, which is a symbol used by several White Supremacist groups.

Well… if you are going to have a hero that fights circumcision one of his arches is going to be a Mohel. I believe (I have not read it) that in the first comic the arch-enemy was a doctor. There are only so many people that specialize in the removal of foreskin. So the Mohel “bad guy” kind of gets a “meh” from me.

What actually is much more disturbing to me is that Foreskin Man steals the baby and gives it to people he deems as “appropriate” to raise the child. This is very reminiscent of Edgardo Mortara:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

It is not as if parents that have their boys circumcised don’t love their children, and one of the worst/abusive things you can do is rip a child out of a loving family. Far worse than circumcision. Christ, we let some meth addicts keep their kids in this country.

I wonder if in the first comic, where the arch was a doctor, was the baby stolen then? Presumably the parents were not jewish. To me it would be a big anti-semitic flag if only the jewish baby were stolen, but the non-jews got to keep their kid.

Hmmm… trident… I am not up on my symbols of white supremacy. I think about the swastika and cross. Trident makes me think of pagan ocean gods, and gladiators. A quick image search did not give any trident symbols. I am curious what groups use that symbol?

BTW, nice mormon reference with the “light and delightsome”. I think that removing that from the book of mormon may have been one of the changes to their “perfect translation”.

thunderlips11 says

I see about needing a Mohel, but the display of the physical characteristics of him was very “1936 Der Stumer” like.

Yeah... yeah, it is.

I just looked it up and it appears that the 1830 book of mormon said, "white and delightsome", but now it says "pure and delightsome".

This is of course in reference to lamanites (read: native americans) when they turn "good" they get rewarded with god turning their skin white, thus removing the "mark of cain"...

but, yes I digress as well.

shrekgrinch says

That’s why the ultimate decider on who gets the last of the oil will be military might. Period.

Oh, and if China isn’t getting enough oil because we will be blocking/redirecting shipping of oil to us means they won’t be producing anything for export, let alone be able to ship it even if they could produce export goods. Think people. Think.

China could just as easily deny the US oil. The US gets over 25% of it's oil imports from the middle east. There isn't enough capacity in the rest of the world to even begin to make that up. The Straight of Hormuz could be easily closed by the current Chinese sub fleet as well as being well within range of China's current generation of missiles. All the military might in the US inventory can't change that simple fact.

Declared 2012 Republican Presidential Candidate

Don't forget...

Jimmy McMillan

Presidential Candidate Jimmy McMillan

The former mayoral, gubernatorial and senatorial candidate for the Rent Is Too Damn High Party announced his candidacy for the Republican presidential nomination on December last year. Explaining his decision not to contest the Democratic nomination, a party he was formerly registered with, karate expert McMillan was quoted as saying "the rent is too damn high." The flamboyant Vietnam veteran also gave some words of advice to President Obama, “If you don’t do your job right, I am coming at you!"

shrekgrinch says

kc6zlv says

Each state is sovereign and business with a presence in a state only fall under the laws of the states they have a presence in.

Then how is it that ObamaCare is on the books? Social Security and MediScare too?
ChrisLA says

This is purely speculative. In the mean time we all will be forced to fork over 10% to the government to spend on their cronyisms.

Yup!

Social Security and the health coverage do not fall under state government. They are Federal laws. This is very different from New York trying to regulate businesses in Illinois.

HousingWatcher says

“Each state is sovereign and business with a presence in a state only fall under the laws of the states they have a presence in.”
Excuse me? Have you never heard of the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution?

Each state can make their own laws unless Federally preempted. The Interstate Commerce Clause is a Federal Preemption to California requiring a business in another state to collect sales taxes or register with the tax board.

Wait, aren't banks supposed to make their money from investing your deposits? That's how it was in the "good ol' days." Now they've turned to parasitic fee structures that fleece the poor, working class, and middle classes the most.

Today's banks are yet another tool that the corporate and rich elite ruling class uses to suck all the money out of the hands of the poor, working class, and middle classes and put that money in their own coffers.

And they don't let it trickle anywhere once they have it. They hold onto it.

Banks should go back to doing what banks are supposed to do. They are supposed to invest in loans issued to businesses to create capital. They should collect their income in the form of interest as the businesses pay back loans. Also they should be making intelligent consumer loans to stimulate spending. Then they get their income from the interest collected as consumers pay back their loans.

Charging fees for every little transaction, or in some cases for every step of a transaction, amounts to nothing more than racketeering dressed up.

Banks are supposed to be making smart investments with depositors' money in order to turn a profit. Then they are supposed to be paying interest to depositors for the use of the depositors' money.

Banks these days act as if all money belongs to them. They act as if they are doing us favors by holding the money they allow us to call our own. Then they charge accordingly every time you want to use the money that they allow you to call your own.

People have forgotten that when you deposit money with a bank, it's still your money. You are doing a service for the bank in allowing them to use your money to make smart investments to turn a profit. A bank is supposed to pay you for the use of your money.

It's time the banks were reminded to whom the money that they hold belongs. They should remember who is providing them with the capital to make loans. Without people placing their checks into banks, the banks wouldn't exist. It's not the other way around.

marcus says

Everyone used to be circumcised in this country. Many doctors and hospital still do it by default

This is one of those things that I thought had been settled conclusively (for) many years ago, but I remember the first time the controversy came up was sometime in the 70's when every other long-established tradition was being challenged. I remember a man was suing his parents for having him cut as an infant--don't know how that turned out.

I was over at a friend's house a couple of weeks ago when his wife came back across the street where their almost 2 year old son had been swimming with the neighbors' kids in the plastic pool. First of all, the little boy was nude right there in the street--the neighbors' kids are little girls and I don't know if that implied they were nude too, but I don't approve of children even that young being taken nude into semi-public. Second, I couldn't help but notice that he had not been circumcised, which surprised me--his parents are both professionals, his mother a teacher and his father a psychologist who teaches part time and works for the Dept. of Public Safety. I don't know if his father, who is 40, is cut or not, but I'd be willing to bet he's not since his son isn't, but I think babies were still being routinely cut in 1969 when he was born. I don't understand why a decision like that can't simply be left to the descretion of the people involved instead of a lot of hoopla being made to force such a drastic change on the public sphere.

Bap33 says

I really struggle to follow the liberal/left/progressive mind

I've said it before, and I know you won't and can't comprehend it, but I am what many right wingers would consider left wing or progressive, and yet I am actually relatively conservative.

I wish to see our country closer to what in was 40 years ago, than what it is becoming.

The definition you give to "liberal thought" is dishonest and designed to enable your hate. I guess many of us need to see a boogie man enemy out there. For you it is this bizarre "liberal" whose philosophy is mostly a figment of your imagination.

What you don't realize, is that almost everything you like about the right was coopted from what used to be southern democrats. The religious right values, gun rights, attributing moral decay to the left, these are all just ploys by the corporatocracy and the plutocrats to get your vote.

None of these things are even addressed by their policies (its just about winning elections). Their policies are all about protecting the rich, and fucking over the middle class.

What does this have to do with gays, drugs, Guns or God ?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/the-truth-about-the-ameri_b_869033.html

shrekgrinch says

On Planet Reality, the US will not invest in any of that ahead of time before the Crisis that causes all of this to come down. But we have invested in our military. Guess which will be available to provide the most expedient resolution to the crisis? Nevermind…it is pointless to appeal to any sense of logic with you.

This is close to nomination for the dumbest thing on pat.net. There are so many shrek quotes to choose from though...

Tim Pawlenty WILL be the Republican nominee. There is no point in following the primary since the outcome of it has already been pre-determined.

I like this little tibbit that was just posted on the White House website:

"Health reform in Massachusetts uses a similar structure as the Affordable Care Act. It includes exchanges where people can purchase health insurance, a personal responsibility requirement to bring everyone into the health insurance system and an employer responsibility requirement. The result? Since reform was enacted in Massachusetts more than five years ago, the number of individuals with employer-sponsored insurance in Massachusetts has increased. And job growth in Massachusetts has kept pace with other New England State and the nation."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/06/08/getting-insurance-work

Make no mistake about it: This was intended to be a swipe at Mitt Romney and to serve as a preview of the attacks he will receive if nominated.

Health insurance actually falls under BOTH federal and state laws. (ie: RomneyCare). Vermont, for instance, just passed a single payer bill.

Taxpayer says

Funny you should say that. Poor people killed 3000 by attacking the world trade center. Rich people slaughtered 100,000 or more innocent Iraqi citizens who had nothing to do with 9/11. Why are rich people so violent?
Are you saying that you support the people who did 9/11? If that is the case, I don’t have anything further to discuss with you.

Huh????? How in the hell can you read that and think he supports the people that did 9/11?

Taxpayer says

Your argument is incorrect because you are saying that a ceo benefits from a worker; but a worker doesn’t benefit from the ceo.

I never said that. And as predicted you didn't answer the question about why the ceo shouldn't pay higher taxes.

Taxpayer says

started dabbling in computers in my teens using money from odd jobs. Now an independant consultant earning very well.

Hard to believe. Can you elaborate on the type of work you do (without giving away any trade secrets) ?

Taxpayer says

But punishing every rich person in sight is not the answer.

Someone makes 500K/yr and their federal taxes go up 25K and they are being punished ? (if top rate went from 35% to 39%). Awww, I can see that would be awfully painful.

This is why it's hard for me to believe believe you make the big bucks you say you do.

Taxpayer says

I agree that there are plenty of people who are rich because of crony capitalism (wall st) or because of ties to govt.

Let's not forget inherited wealth.

Taxpayer says

but you have no right to whine while still working for the unfair company.,

Maybe all of the companies should say that, and then they should all become unfair. It would be good for the shareholders in the long run if our labor costs come go down. Let's use the competitive global labor markets to our advantage, we continue to shift labor overseas while we force the cost of labor down here. It's a win win. God help the people that don't have highly marketable skills.

We will then become a sort of hybrid country. Half third world, but we will still have our gated communities, our high end luxury neighborhoods, our prisons and a cheap labor force.

What more could we want?

kc6zlv says

I have a feeling there is a significant percentage of people who aren’t smart enough to factor in things like sales tax and shipping when they order online.

Often times it's exact same stuff, just cheaper. If I go online and find the same product cheaper by a few hundred dollars I'll get it online. It doesn't make sense to pay to a local merchant middle-man who is running an inefficient business with too much overhead.

None of them produce anything, they are just resellers, and some are better than others.

Here's a radical case:

Banks have been a problem ever since the first Goldsmith realized all the people who let him hold their gold didn't claim it back either in the full amount nor all at once.

Banking has been the underlying cause of the majority of financial crises, QED. From John Law in 18th C France to Wildcat Banking in the Wild West to Mortgage Backed Securities today.

People have been complaining about usury since time immemorial. Every religion either wants to ban it or greatly restrict it. Usury in the bible is the lending of money between compatriots at ANY interest; no percentage rate is offered as a guideline. C.F. Leviticus, Deuteronomy, the Gospels.

How about we just drop the whole program?

Life goes on without out, huge empires have survived without it. The great mass of the public has done without it for millenia at a time. If the government wants to stimulate, they can put the money directly in the hands of individual actors, we have the technology to do so easily.

Banking would become Full Reserve banking, you pay a fee for the storage of your money and the convenience of writing checks/using ATMs and the security and ease of transaction. That's almost 30-40% of bank profit right now. Without loans and lending, they could easily survive in their new incarnation.

OR, allow fractional reserve banking, but only in the form of Credit Unions and limited to size and scale.

Now that will make homes affordable, reduce consumer prices, foster long-term trust based business relationships, and eliminate a great deal of speculation and exploitation of the poorest.

Furthermore the best minds would have speculation as an a career path eliminated. They'd have to work on Mars Missions and better Lightbulbs instead of "Financial Innovations".

Many said slavery was indispensable and without it the economy would collapse.

Just a thought.

I think I pretty much see where you're at now.

I think progress of humanity and our country is not unlike the way that people grow. It would be nice if we could skip certain "phases." I can see it in people. Some people totally bypass or skip unnecessary learning phases in their life.

Couldn't we learn the lessons of going through becoming a third world country without actually doing it? Do we really have to destroy so much before we can figure out how to live?

Maybe we really have choices.

elliemae says

both of them are “good mormons

Is Sentator Harry Reid a Good Mormon or a Bad Mormon?

Continued loose monetary policy will eventually bring the economy out of recession, making Obama a shoe in, assuming things improve.
Newt is oversexed, obese and headed for a heart attack. He will be sued by the Pillsbury dough boy for copyright infringement and serve time for his half baked indiscretion, and his flaky buns will be buttered when he gets rolled by his cellmate, but that's the yeast of his worries.

Herman Cain won the debate in South Carolina according to those who make such judgements. He did extremely well and was well liked. If Rick Perry decided to run he's also a condender.
Romney was popular and McCain won the nomination last time because in some primaries Democrats were voting.
It's odd that some people mention Mormon regarding Romney, although there are plenty of other examples in Government.
It's more odd considering the president was a muslim, go figure.

Nomograph says

When Rove harnessed the Christian conservative vote and allowed them power in the party, he essentially destroyed the Republican’s long-term viability

I think it began with the Moral Majority that helped to elect Reagan. Pappy Bush drifted away from them and Rove steered them back.

The whole friggin Christian conservative movement doesn't seem like it embodies any kind of social justice like the movement in the Northern churches against the Fugitive Slave War which is what finally ignited the powder keg that became known as the "Civil War".

Nomograph says

Sounds like the next credit bubble is brewing

Herr Doctor Professor:
The big credit bubble that's brewing is student loans, debt slavery that cannot be discharged, plus some of it subsidized by taxpayers, to fund their lifestyles.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304432304576369840105112326.html