patrick.net

CNN Money. "Buffeted by high taxes, strict regulations and uncertain state budgets, a growing number of California companies are seeking friendlier business environments outside the Golden State". Tami Lubby

"Buffeted by high taxes, oppressive regulations, burdensome unions, predatory lawsuits and a hostile business environment, a growing number of United States Companies are seeking friendlier business environments outside the United States". Honest Abe

Well dah???

I've got and idea to solve the debt problem. Lets start taxing the 50% of Americans who don't pay any Federal Income Tax. Its time they pay their "fair share".

Read my post on this thread before you spew:

http://patrick.net/?p=858047#comment-748841

California has had more businesses every year, even through the recession. Some move out, others move in and others create businesses here.

Lol, I was waiting for that. What kind of businesses corntrollio? Why are all the biotech jobs going over seas? I don't want a jack-in-the-crack job. You've never answered that.

This is a bit old but I suspect since unemployment in this state is higher more people are getting the heck out of here:

http://www.housingbubblebust.com/UHaulIndex/California.html

Californians need jobs that pay them enough to live a decent life. So far, (well only the past 4 years or so) I've been lucky in that respect. Hope it continues but I sort of doubt it.

just_passing_through says

This is a bit old but I suspect since unemployment in this state is higher more people are getting the heck out of here:

http://www.housingbubblebust.com/UHaulIndex/California.html

You're basing that on UHaul stats from 2006? Thanks, but no thanks.

Why are all the biotech jobs going over seas?

Please be more specific. What is going overseas and in what numbers? How has growth been here?

Nomograph says

Not everyone can compete however, and the lesser players are forced out to places like AZ and TX where the talent pool is second and third tier.

Yes, there are many factors that apply here, and it's incorrect to focus only on one. Cost of living is high, taxes are high, business regulation is high. But the talent pool is massive, and you can't always get around that. If you want to relocate to Boise, you have to find the right number of scientists/tech people/etc there. In addition, the VC environment is more mature here, so startups have an easier time finding funding. The exact industry matters too, and it's hard to make blanket statements about this kind of thing.

As with many things, the answer is likely between the two extremes.

Nomograph says

California is a mecca for industry and is THE place for innovative and entrepreneurial businesses. Not everyone can compete however, and the lesser players are forced out to places like AZ and TX where the talent pool is second and third tier.

Great answer.

Something similar happens in NYC with financial firms and the companies that provide services to them. Except when they fail to run with the big dogs, they also run down to Alpharetta, GA as well as Houston or Hartford. Always with the excuse that it's better for the companies finances.

In reality, they failed to interest the big players like Citigroup or TIAA-CREF, and now have to pitch their services to customers like the First Bank of Okeefinokee and the Brotherhood of Armenian Retired Fishermen life insurance company.

Honest Abe says

I've got and idea to solve the debt problem. Lets start taxing the 50% of Americans who don't pay any Federal Income Tax. Its time they pay their "fair share".

I agree.

zzyzzx says

Honest Abe says

I've got and idea to solve the debt problem. Lets start taxing the 50% of Americans who don't pay any Federal Income Tax. Its time they pay their "fair share".

I agree.

I don't mean this personally, but I know you guys couldn't possibly be as intellectually impaired as you pretend to be.

Those people who you say don't pay income taxes, do pay PAYROLL TAXES (social security) and MEDICARE TAXES. Many of us actually understand that this goes in to the current years "budget" or actually offsetting what we say our current "budget defict" is.

In other words, our criminally low taxes on higher incomes, which are destroying our future, are essentially made possible by spending money that is collected for social security and medicare.

Now Troy or others might argue that we borrow that money and owe it to ourselves, which is true, but the way it is accounted for, within the current years budget, means that it is, for accounting purposes, treated like income taxes.

Again, it is only because of this accounting treatment that Bush's tax cuts occurred in the first place.

"We have a surplus. I think you know what to do with your money better than the government does" (not the exact quote of GWB)

(as opposed to Gore's "lock box" which would have changed the accounting, making these more like real pension and insurance funds)

I don't think that you guys are retarded, but by pretending to be retarded, even to yourself, you get to have the fun of believing whatever you want.

"Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee."

It must be fun.

marcus says

Those people who you say don't pay income taxes, do pay PAYROLL TAXES (social security) and MEDICARE TAXES. Many of us actually understand that this goes in to the current years "budget" or actually offsetting what we say our current "budget defict" is.

Right on.

And of course, they also pay sales taxes, licensing fees, state income taxes, etc.

People who make less than $25k (really should be $40k) have very little, if any disposable income, unless they are 20 years old and live with mom and dad. By taxing them, all you do is take dollars that would definitely be spent right away on clothes, food, etc. hurting the economy.

The idea that people who make well into the 6 figures are overtaxed is absurd.

Conservatives also like to forget that corporate taxes are paid on profits only, that Small Biz Owners have access to all kinds of tax breaks that employees can't get, and that profits do not necessarily translate into more employees.

What Liberals like to forget is that if there were no profit at any specific company then the business would collapse and there would be NO jobs and NO taxes paid of any kind.

Success and profit are not evil as you have been brainwashed to believe. Successful and profitable small business's are the driving force of America's economy. Liberals are doing everything in their power to kill the goose that lay's golden egg.'s...ugh.

The USA has the highest capital gain tax in the world. I guess that shows where the greed really lies, doesn't it?

"The USA has the highest capital gain tax in the world"

wat?

You have the temerity to imply that "Liberals" are reality-challenged?

Look in the mirror, pal.

Denmark
Share dividends and realized capital gains on shares are charged 28% to individuals of gains up to DKK 48,300 (2011-level, adjusted annually), and at 42% of gains above that.

Finland
The capital gains tax in Finland is 28% on realized capital income.

France
For residents, capital gains tax on the sale of financial instruments (shares, bonds, etc..) is a flat 32.3%

The German capital gains tax is 25% plus Solidaritätszuschlag (add-on tax initially introduced to finance the 5 eastern states of Germany - Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Thuringia and Brandenburg - and the cost of the reunification, but later kept in order to finance all kind of public funded projects in whole Germany), plus Kirchensteuer (church tax), resulting in an effective tax rate of about 28%

Hungary
Since 1 September 2006 there is one flat tax rate (20%) on capital income.

Ireland, Republic of
Since 7 April 2009, there is a 25% tax on capital gains

Norway
The individual capital gains tax in Norway is 28%.

Poland
Since 2004 there is one flat tax rate (19%) on capital income.

Spain
For individuals from January 1, 2010 capital tax change in Spain. First EUR 6.000 will be taxed at 19%, on the other hand, gains from EUR 6.000 will be taxed at 21%

Sweden
The capital gains tax in Sweden is 30% on realized capital income.

United Kingdom
Individuals who are resident or ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom (and trustees of various trusts) are subject to a capital gains tax, charged at 18%.
For people paying more than the basic rate of income tax, this increased to 28% from midnight on June 23, 2010.

United States
Main article: Capital gains tax in the United States
In the United States, individuals and corporations pay income tax on the net total of all their capital gains just as they do on other sorts of income, but the tax rate for individuals is lower on "long-term capital gains," which are gains on assets that had been held for over one year before being sold. The tax rate on long-term gains was reduced in 2003 to 15%, or to 5% for individuals in the lowest two income tax brackets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax

Honest Abe, lying as always.

Honest Abe says

What Liberals like to forget is that if there were no profit at any specific company then the business would collapse and there would be NO jobs and NO taxes paid of any kind.

Unless the tax rate is 100%, there will be profit.

Fallacy of the excluded middle: Either taxes have to be 100% or 0%. They can be 15%, 25%, 33%, or 40% just fine, too.

Profit isn't evil, but taxing unearned income at a rate less than actual, productive labor is truly wealth distribution - from the poor and middle to the rich.

Furthermore, unlike corporate and capital gains taxes which are paid only on profit, workers pay a tax on their wages largely without regard to their 'operating expenses' like rent or transportation to work.

This means that workers are taxed on basically, revenue (with a few writeoffs but the really good ones aren't obtainable by people making under 6 figures).

Of the 50% of the country that does not pay federal income tax, 75% of them make LESS than $20,000 a year. So youw ant to raise taxes on peopel all the way at the bottom while not raising taxes at the top? I have an idea: Let's get rid of the carried interest loophole. Why should John Paulson get away with only paying 15% in federal taxes when everyone else in his income bracket pays 36%?

I stand corrected. There are just five countries in the WHOLE WORLD with a higher capital gain tax than the U.S. (and all of them socialist). Denmark 45%, Sweden 30%, Finland 27%, Norway 26% and France 26%. The effective tax rate of Australia and the UK is lower than the U.S tax rate.

Germany and Switzerland impose NO tax whatsoever on long term capital gains.

Source: Australian Treasury "International Comparison of Australia's Taxes" April 2006, Page 208.

Housing Watcher, a progressive income tax is one of the 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto. How can we denounce communism yet practice it at the same time ??? You're not a liberal closet communist, are you?

I am a left wing Socialist. And so are you. And so is every single other person in America. They just don't realize it.

Thunderlips: "Unless the tax rate is 100% there WILL be profit", hahaha.

Perhaps your weakened liberal mind forgot "Expenses" as a cost of doing business. Things like employee salaries, accounting and payroll, seminars, professional fees, insurance expense, dues & subscriptions, leased equipment and maintenance, legal expenses, employee retirement plan, payroll taxes, postage, messenger, printing, rent, repairs and services, maintenance & janitorial, storage fees, telephone, computer & modem lines, utilities and miscellaneous.

"Profit", if any, is that tiny number left over after paying all the bills and everyone else.

Honest Abe says

Thunderlips: "Unless the tax rate is 100% there WILL be profit", hahaha.
Perhaps your weakened liberal mind forgot "Expenses" as a cost of doing business.

Um, yeah, you must have missed something in your business classes.

Profit = income - expenses

Corporations are taxed on PROFIT only, not income. That is the income left over AFTER paying all of their expenses. They get to write off a loss if they are paying more expenses than their income.

Individuals pay taxes on all of their income without any consideration to their expenses (with some small exceptions for the "little people").

Honest Abe says

Thunderlips: "Unless the tax rate is 100% there WILL be profit", hahaha.

Perhaps your weakened liberal mind forgot "Expenses" as a cost of doing business. Things like employee salaries, accounting and payroll, seminars, professional fees, insurance expense, dues & subscriptions, leased equipment and maintenance, legal expenses, employee retirement plan, payroll taxes, postage, messenger, printing, rent, repairs and services, maintenance & janitorial, storage fees, telephone, computer & modem lines, utilities and miscellaneous.

Profits is the surplus AFTER expenses have been paid. As long as taxes aren't 100% of profit, there will be some left over.

thunderlips11 says

Believing in a progressive income tax, according to your reading of the Communist Manifesto, is a NECESSARY component of being a Communist. It is not however SUFFICIENT to call someone a Communist.

But in the minds of talk radio listeners, it is.

1. Abolition of Private Property.
BONK! The bulk of all assets in the USA are owned privately, and not held publicly.

2. Heavy Progressive Income Tax.
BONK! From the Hedge Fund Manager tax exemption to capital gains vs. effective tax rates on earned income to payroll taxes, the US is actually a REGRESSIVE tax state.

3. Abolition of all Inheritance.
BONK! The US is still not a meritocracy, and children are allowed to inherit from relatives up to several million dollars without paying a dime in taxes. Taxes that are levied may be paid out over many years, and are not due upon receipt of the unearned income.

4. Confiscation of property of all emmigrants and rebels.
BONK! The US does not confiscate the property of persons, real or fictional, who move overseas. The government does confiscate the property of drug dealers and accused criminals, but those are hardly rebels. Confiscating the property of actual rebels has been the norm since the first states arose 7000+ years ago.

5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
BONK! Credit is not wholly centralized in the hands of the state. Trillions of dollars in credit and capital is in the hands of a myriad of financial institutions and available through a variety of private arrangements, from Credit Cards to Promissary Notes to Pay Day Loans to Pawn to Venture Capital to Private Issue Bonds. Even if the Fed is considered a national bank, it is still a BONK as the Fed does not have exclusive monopoly on capital - not even state capital - by a country mile.

6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
BONK! Travel and Shipping: CSX, Greyhound, Toyota, COSCO, Virgin Airlines, UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc.
BONK! Communication: Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, Comcast, HughesNet, DirectTV, untold smaller ISPs and Phonecards etc. etc.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
BONK! To the contrary, US tax and regulatory policy encourages outsourcing of industry, paving over of the prime coastal farming areas for suburban sprawl, and the destruction of wide swaths of farmland through industrial agriculture.

8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
BONK! The U-6 is 16%. I haven't seen common people snatched off the street and forced into picking grapes in California wearing "State Farm #65" insignia on their red color overalls.

So there you have it folks.

Suburbs and Public Schools make America a Marxist Nation.

There is no progressive income tax in the communist manifesto. In communist regimes, everyone makes the same amount of money so it would not be physically possible to have a progressive income tax.

marcus says

Instead, GWB passes massive tax cuts that went mostly to high income earners

Not entirely true. The top bracket got $80B, the rest got $300B.

Of course, the top bracket is only 2% of the population IIRC.

Troy says

Not entirely true. The top bracket got $80B, the rest got $300B.

Of course, the top bracket is only 2% of the population IIRC.

Yes. According to new figures released by Citizens for Tax Justice:

The richest one percent would receive an average tax cut of $68,079 in 2013.

The poorest 60 percent of taxpayers would receive an average tax cut of just $487 in 2013.

http://www.ctj.org/taxjusticedigest/archive/2011/06/the_bush_tax_cuts_after_ten_ye.php

http://www.ctj.org/fed_pub_news/bush_tax_policy.php

Also from the same site:

"CTJ and others have noted that the cost of the Bush tax cuts from 2001 through 2010 was about two and a half trillion dollars. The recent “compromise” that extended them for another two years, through the end of 2012, cost $571.5 billion. But this is only the beginning. If Congress makes permanent the Bush tax cuts or extends them for another decade, the cost will be $5.4 trillion."

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Rich people eat babies on buttered toast for breakfast - and you know what that costs?
BUCKS! Like 35K+ per baby, otherwise you're eating crap like caviar.

And they can afford real butter and the expensive bread. I'm willing to bet that babies taste the same whether they're the cheaper ones or the super expensive test tube type.

AF, you crack me up.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Why the fuck does America want to starve its achievers to death?

Well, in a pinch they could always eat their fingers like they're just another meal. That would be ambitious, I think.

terriDeaner says

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Why the fuck does America want to starve its achievers to death?

Well, in a pinch they could always eat their fingers like they're just another meal. That would be ambitious, I think.

If they develop an iron deficiency they could always eat part of their livers. It'll grow back...

It's sad how so many liberals show up and start defending government spending and socialism. It's like they have not noticed that our nation is broke and in debt. Because we keep on spending more per citizen than we make.

But they want their welfare checks, union thug payout, and government officials bribes rolling in, they don't care for consequences outside of that. As long as they get their checks they don't care who pays for it.

I too agree that govt. spending is bad EMan. WHich is why I have personally wrote a letter to Obama telliing him to stop sending all Social Security checks to your parents and not to send a single one to you when your 65.

Chris, yes there is waste in government, but no your union thug bs shows you know absolutely nothing about unions. Here's a taste of reality, and what's really sad is that you refuse to consider it.

Obama yesterday:

“Our problem is we cut taxes without paying for them for the last decade. We ended up instituting programs like the prescription drug program for seniors that was not paid for. We fought two wars, we didn’t pay for them. We had a bad recession that required a recovery act and stimulus spending and helping states. All that accumulated and there’s interest on top of that.
“To unwind that, what’s required is to roll back those tax cuts on the wealthiest individuals.”

He is only asking for minor tax increases to complement the huge spending cuts he will agree to.

What's really sad, is that I fear he won't hold out enough, because he feels he needs his tax argument next year.

marcus i'm already paying nearly half my income into taxes.

This government has a huge spending problem. Every politician that comes in right away starts handing money out in every direction like it's hot potatoes because it is not his money. They want to pay for all that, than they should cut their frivolous spending.

simchaland says

terriDeaner says

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Why the fuck does America want to starve its achievers to death?

Well, in a pinch they could always eat their fingers like they're just another meal. That would be ambitious, I think.

If they develop an iron deficiency they could always eat part of their livers. It'll grow back...

This begs the question of which wine to go with the meal choice; I found this online.

The question was "Is Chianti a good wine to go with liver?"

Jade Orchid says

What I find interesting is that they chose Chianti for that line in the movie. Chianti is a horrible choice to go with liver as it's too fruity to be a serious match, especially to a connoisseur, like Hannibal. He would have more likely chosen a fine dark red like a Côtes du Rhône to bring out the flavor of the liver and to enhance the dish. I mean why kill someone and cook them when you plan on pairing it with the wrong wine, right? :)

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100309141953AARyxxH

BTW, I was impressed at how California Companies Fleeing the Golden State becomes a liberal/conservative issue immediately. ;)

EMan says

t's sad how so many liberals show up and start defending government spending and socialism.

I defend it because what you call "socialism" -- high tax & high services -- works very well in Norway, Sweden, Canada, Australia, Denmark.

Economically, what I think is happening with this high tax level is the state is taking up the natural rents in the system and redistributing them evenly to all.

(All honest economists will say that taxing rents is the least worst tax)

Our system with very very low taxation is allowing the rents to collect in the top 1-5%. The rich get richer by plowing their income into more income-producing assets. These are largely not wealth-creating assets (that increase employment) but wealth itself -- land and natural resources (that are parasitical takings from the community).

It's like they have not noticed that our nation is broke and in debt.

This is because what you say here is not true. 80% of the nation might be broke, but the top 10% has never been richer.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/current/z1r-5.pdf

shows we have $71.9T of assets against $13.9T in liabilities. That's not broke.

The problem is simply that taxes are way, way too low. Cutting taxes in 2001-2003 was a horrible mistake at a very fundamental level.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=15G

If it wasn't an intentional attempt to destroy government, it was the stupidest thing we've done in my lifetime.

Because we keep on spending more per citizen than we make.

This is yet another one of your "thought-terminating cliches", it is a rare post of yours here that does not have one or several of these bon mots.

Per-household GDP is $130,000. Per-household government spending is $50,000. We are not spending more than we make.

Troy says

I defend it because what you call "socialism" -- high tax & high services -- works very well in Norway, Sweden, Canada, Australia, Denmark.

we are not a tiny little place like norway, sweden, canada or australia. communism works in an african tribe too, it doesnt work in a large economy.

EMan says

we are not a tiny little place like norway, sweden, canada or australia. communism works in an african tribe too, it doesnt work in a large economy.

communism? What the eurosocialists are doing is not communism, and it's not really socialism, either, since communism is fancy word for socialism.

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html

What they are doing is simply a mixed economy, putting the state in charge of what it does best and putting free enterprise in charge of the rest.

right wing cranks simply lack the perspective and understanding to successfully parse that last sentence.

As for the point that we have 60X the population of Norway and 10X the population of Canada, point taken. Perhaps we are in fact too large to govern ourselves as well as eg. Norway.

Troy none of those nations lead the world in anything. They are all small, and small scale situations are different. US was founded upon rugged individualism, upon freedom from big brother. It's what made us great and the greatest nation in the world.

EMan says

US was founded upon rugged individualism, upon freedom from big brother. It's what made us great and the greatest nation in the world.

thing is, we also had over three million square miles of mighty fine land available to us -- the Louisiana Purchase alone was 800,000 sq miles, 5 acres per household now, 500 acres per household back then.

The election of 1800 had under 70,000 voters -- total.

The corn-pone history of the Wild West is over now, the good land was all given away by 1920 and what was left for the nation to pursue was internal development in manufacturing and industrial processes (which we did quite well at, 1910-1990).

And as the cities grew in development so did the need for social justice and government regulation of the market. The 1912 Progressive Party platform is indicative of the modernization that was sorely needed by then:

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=607

Your cartoon view of history is useful as propaganda but we are no longer a rural country with plenty of opportunity for everyone with the gumption to take an axe and go find land. Quite the opposite, we're an empire in decline that is falling increasingly into a parasitical rich/ fucked poor divide that as it continues will take us out as a world power, and as a place worth living.

We have great economies of scale but we also have millions of people living in poverty or worse. It doesn't have to be this way, but conservatives have zero policy fixes for this. Going back to the 19th century isn't going to be progress.

Troy says

It doesn't have to be this way, but conservatives have zero policy fixes for this. Going back to the 19th century isn't going to be progress.

taking money from people that survive through labor, and giving it to people that willingly make bad choices and do not support themselves, is not a good idea in any era. Is it?

There's a strawman or two in there, bap.

One of the drivers of poverty in this country is the parasitical rent-seeking going on all over the place -- in housing, medicine, energy, everything with inelastic demand, since rents live there.

It is this rife rentierism that is keeping the lower classes down. Individually, anyone with the talent is able to escape this predation by joining it, but not everyone can, nor can most people stuck on the low end of the totem pole.

Poverty goes beyond "bad choices". Bad choices are an element, but the dynamics that induce these bad choices are systemic.

eg. people with money have connections, credit, and the luxury of being able to bounce back from multiple failures (cf Trump). Poor people have little of that.

I don't pretend to have any magic bullets here. But what we really need in this country is much more public investment in housing, education, and healthcare.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys. If we cut our defense budget 50% we'd have $400B to invest in housing and education. That's FOUR MILLION middle-class jobs making a difference in communities that need the investment.

Things can't turn around in a year, we need a generation or 3, but we could de-slum and de-ghetto our cities in 30 years if we decided to.

The poor need jobs. We -- the wealthy -- should pay them to improve their communities.