patrick.net

Honest Abe says

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China, thereby avoiding oppressive taxes, burdensome regulations, parasitic unions, predatory lawsuits and a hostile business environment.

GE has union workers in its X-ray division? I call BS. I also call BS on predatory lawsuits. These are just talking points that you'd use no matter what company in what industry was moving an HQ.

If you follow this industry, this has everything to do with achieving double-digit growth in marketing low-feature and more affordable healthcare technology in the developing world. The U.S. market is already saturated with the high-end stuff. This will be the growing trend for healthcare technology -- there are many people in developing countries looking for cheaper ways to improve healthcare, and they want the cheap and basic machines, not the full-featured machines we have here.

GE Healthcare has 60,000 employees, and they have 120 currently in Wisconsin, and will hire 65 in China. I'm not saying GE is a saintly company, but let's not pretend this is a large scale move.

Honest Abe says

Bap, good job in listing the underlying causes of a hostile business environment in California. In reality, layer upon layer of regulations are exactly what makes California companies non-competitive when compared to business friendly states or even business friendly countries

Nonsense, other than CARB, what items that bap listed are unique to California? CARB technically applies in more than just California these days, by the way. What specific California regulations do you think are problematic?

HousingWatcher says

Because as I said a dozen times before, labor in developing countries like China is 30 cents an hour vs. $10 + an hour in the U.S.

That's just a made-up number, but you are correct that there is a labor cost advantage. However, the overall cost advantage for manufacturing goods for the US in China is disappearing as labor costs and other costs go up in China due to economic prosperity. I have posted in another thread an article from the Economist describing that consultants think that in 2015, manufacturers could be neutral between the US and China with respect to manufacturing US-bound goods. Some people suggest Vietnam and other cheaper countries, but none of those countries ever built up the support structure like China.

Asking which regulations are "problematic" is like asking which straw finally broke the camels back.

They're all problematic, especially when they get piled one on top of another...local ordinances, city regulations, county taxes, state "mandates", Federal laws, on and on and on. But go ahead, pretend like it doesn't exist and keep explaining away the obvious.

Honest Abe says

Asking which regulations are "problematic" is like asking which straw finally broke the camels back.

As in, you can't name anything or explain why it would be a problem, and you just want to complain without being called on your BS? What specific local ordinances, city regulations, and state "mandates" (not sure why it's in quotes) do you think are most important? Which county taxes are you referring to?

Come on, if there are so many, this should be incredibly easy. It shouldn't even be a challenge. Just pick the most important and explain why they hurt business.

Honest Abe says

They're all problematic

Pesky child labor laws, who needs 'em?

@Vincent,
I was trying to point out some issues that AMerican Companies have to deal with that Chineese Companies do not. I was not trying to say full non-regulation is good, but obviously, too much regualtion can be detramental. That was how Obama warned the coal industry .. "you can build a plant, but you will go broke trying to run it" .. or something like that. He dared the coal folks to have a coal fired power plant (I think that's how it went down).

Blah, blah, blah, waah, waah, waah. Companies continue to leave the state while you libs ingore and deny the reality of the situation...or try to defend it.

Perhaps more regulation, more taxes, more unions, and more lawsuits will help. Is that what you think?

Yes here's some of your people and businesses fleeing California.

http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/Immigration---CLU-126349973.html

However I thought it was the sort of fleeing Bap would want.

Outside of FreeRepublic, I don't find a lot of actual verifiable data about companies leaving or not.

Example I find one story that pointedly mentions Fujitsu FronTech leaving California. When I dig around I find no press releases from Fujitsu about moving. I do see stuff about corporate downsizing and reorg. Perhaps they are collapsing divisions, doing layoffs, moving it back to a smaller Japan office. I dunno, not clearcut from what I see.

Honest Abe says

Blah, blah, blah, waah, waah, waah. Companies continue to leave the state while you libs ingore and deny the reality of the situation...or try to defend it.

Perhaps more regulation, more taxes, more unions, and more lawsuits will help. Is that what you think?

I have not stated any political orientation. I am simply trying to have a fact-based decision here. You are not making arguments, but rather stating talking points. That's not interesting or novel, and doesn't really foster a true discussion or sharing of ideas. I gave you what would seem to be a very easy task, based on your professed ideology, and you still can't do it. Don't blame me for your ignorance, if that's the issue here.

Vicente says

Example I find one story that pointedly mentions Fujitsu FronTech leaving California. When I dig around I find no press releases from Fujitsu about moving.

As I mentioned, the GE X-Ray thing was very widely circulated, but is ultimately a de minimis number of employees at GE Healthcare, but people seized on it. It's hard to say what people will care about.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily rely on the Freepers for accuracy. Fujitsu FronTech is moving manufacturing from its North American HQ in Foothill Ranch, CA in Orange County to Plattsburgh, NY where it already has presence, i.e. from CA, a "high tax state," to NY, another one. Sales, ops, and R&D are staying put, but this consolidates manufacturing with its existing logistics operation in NY:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110415005219/en/Fujitsu-Frontech-North-America-Move-Point-Sale

no EPA: Yeah who needs clean water? Chemicals and radioactive waste will strenthen Americans over time as our bodies mutate.

no CARB & no Air Pollution Control District: Yeah, no one needs clean air. You can buy oxygen in tanks these days and there are filtered masks available. Buying oxygen and masks will keep people employed in the factories of Asia. And if global warming is more than a libruhl fantasy then it will be good for tourism to have tropical weather in Greenland.

no AFLCIO & no Teamsters: Who needs stinkin' worker representation? Employers are naturally beneficent to to their employees. Employers have never mistreated any workers, ever. Workers deserve only to work. Any pay or benefits is beyond what an employer should be required to provide. Workers should be grateful to have a purpose in life by having a job.

no OSHA & no Industrial Labor Law: Yeah, who needs safety rules or any industrial standards? Children should have a "Right to Work." It's good for them. It builds character. If they lose a limb they learn to overcome adversity.

no Affirmitive Action & no GLAD compliance: Yeah, no one wants minorities or faggots working for them. Fags should just accept that they are subhuman gross sinners who die of AIDS from butt sex. They deserve to be insulted and we should definitely teach our children to ignore them, warn them about their diseased nature, or ridicule them openly in public. We definitely don't need these laws.

no Maternity Leave law & no Fraternity Leave law: Mothers should simply give birth to their babies while at work and keep working immediately after a small unpaid 5 minute break to wipe off before resuming their work. If it was good enough for the serfs in the Middle Ages to bive birth in the fields and to continue working immediately after, it's good for us now. And children should be raised at work and given jobs as soon as possible anyway. They don't need any "support" from family. It takes a corporation to raise a child.

no Handicap Access law: Yeah, those damn crips are crippled because their parents sinned like it says in the Good Book. They should just accept their lot in life and never venture outside. It would save all of us from having to look at their gross deformities.

no Obama mandated health care: Yeah. who needs health care? No one. If you get sick you should just be allowed to die in peace. In the animal kingdom it's "survival of the fittest." We're allowing too many sick people to reproduce. It muddies the gene pool. And old people shouldn't have MediCare. They don't produce anything so they should expect nothing. Why don't they die already and relieve us of their burden?

no fear of being sued for bogus horseshit like WalMart, K-Mart, Savemart, Sears, and every other big corp gets sued for here.: Yeah because big corporations always have the best of intentions and protect their workers and customers from any possible harm. They never cut corners to make a profit, ever. They never discriminate against anyone. Only people who work hard get ahead.

Bap33 says

.... would someone please affix a "Conservative" and a "Liberal" to each of those things I listed so we may all give thanks where thanks is due.

I wouldn't dream of depriving you of a job you are more than capable of doing yourself. Get to work. Stop being lazy.

you did not read my second post for clarification ... but, since you have your paties all bunched up already, don't bother. Just sit there in your poopy pants and blame conservative America for all of your ills.

Bap33 says

you did not read my second post for clarification ... but, since you have your paties all bunched up already, don't bother. Just sit there in your poopy pants and blame conservative America for all of your ills.

Well I don't wear panties and I don't poop my pants but I will place the blame for the country's ills where it belongs. Conservatives are to blame for the mess we are in today. It's good to see you finally admit that.

Simchaland - you're out of your mind - along with the rest of your left wing, progressive, socialistic, liberal, progressive buddies.

Its you idiots that want:
Larger government
More social spending
More taxes
More affirmative action
More abortion
More bureaucracies
More government spending
More welfare
More business regulation
More bad changes
More inflation

Conservatives know you can't spend more than you take in. Liberal politicians (especially) pander for votes by promising things that can't be paid for - at least during their lifetime...thereby schakeling future generations with the burden of paying the bill.

You idiots are morally bankrupt. Oh, but you argue SUCH a good game. But your stupid arguments are being slowly crushed by the weight of reality - in case you haven't noticed.

Step away from your rights and no one will be hurt.

Honest Abe says

Its you idiots that want:
Larger government
More social spending
More taxes
More affirmative action
More abortion
More bureaucracies
More government spending
More welfare
More business regulation
More bad changes
More inflation

they are building soviet union failure 2.0

Do you right wingers even try anymore, or have you given up?

HousingWatcher says

Do you right wingers even try anymore, or have you given up?

I'm sure they'll say that the raises under the republicans were warranted because the Dems caused the problem, while the raises under the Dems was their fault.

If your hand is caught in the cookie jar, just blame it on a defective jar.

wouldn't it make more sense for the debt limit to be a percentage of GDP instead of just a random number?

Debt limit is nonsense in the first place.

Don't want to spend it don't vote for the budget bill.

would you respond to my post please. I think my point may be valid.

OK I'll bite percentage of GDP is slightly less insane. Propose away if you like but GOTP is I suspect uninterested in your idea, as it could then be gamed by whoever calculated the GDP figures.

Japan debt to GDP ratio has been 225% for ages and they don't seem to have turned into cannibal anarchy.

Vicente says

Japan debt to GDP ratio has been 225% for ages and they don't seem to have turned into cannibal anarchy.

But they've been hit by multiple earthquakes and tsunamis. Coincidence?

hmmm .... is the GDP easy to monkey with? Anyways, it makes sense to me to tie the debt to the income function

I disagree. You are going further than just not embracing Keynesian theories. You're advocating the opposite of Keynesian policies, which everyone knows would be bad.

Sure for a household it makes sense. But in a household, increasing your spending does not increase your gross income (except to the extent that you might be motivated to make more to minimize debt).

By the way, the "debt" refers to total debt. GDP is a number that can can even decrease. Decreasing spending doesn't decrease debt, it only decreases future debt. So what you are suggesting is that if we go in to a recession, that is when we should pay down debt ? That's like saying that when you are unemployed is the time when you must pay down debt.

But let's assume you mean that the annual deficit should be tied to GDP. Even this doesn't really make sense.

I think everyone knows the following is how it should be:

In times of growing or booming economy we should be running surpluses, with money actually somehow put aside. Then when recessions come, that is when deficit spending should happen (which might only mean keeping the spending the same as it was - while tax revenues decrease or don't increase as expected due to the recession).

I really do think that everyone knows that's is how it should be, but instead we have big wars to wage, and we need to have a military that's bigger than all the others put together, etc. And then there's the politicians, crawling all over each other to get their share, for their "constituents," the corruption, and so on.

Oh, and let's not forget the selfish and greedy crowd that will say (no matter how low tax rates are) that we need to have lower taxes to grow the economy. How has that worked out for us ?

elliemae says

But they've been hit by multiple earthquakes and tsunamis. Coincidence?

No that's just a consequence of not being Christian enough.

Bap33 says

hmmm .... is the GDP easy to monkey with? Anyways, it makes sense to me to tie the debt to the income function

Like any figure, people argue incessantly over how it's measured. Do you agree with official inflation numbers?

Setting that aside, it's the same problem. What is the "right" ratio of debt to GDP? I dunno, neither does anyone else. Whatever ceiling seemed like a great idea when times are good, will seem like a disastrous choice when it conflicts with political needs of the moment. Example back during the 90's Newt & Clinton and that crowd seemed on the verge of balancing the budget and actually paying down the debt. Then Bush Jr. got into office and suddenly as Cheney said "deficits don't matter" and the ratio would have been INFINITE and we were off again. Now that the debt has piled up to something enormous and it's very late in the game I'm sure certain parties would pick a very low number.

Tying deficits inverse to gdp growth might work. If growth is low or negative, you can borrow, if its significantly positive you must pay down debt.

Exceptions could be made for total war as well, but only if there is a draft and the combined gdp of the countries we are at war with are at least two thirds of our own

69 companies left California during the first quarter of 2011, the fastest rate ever.

California ranks # 49 for "Business Tax Climate" and # 48 for "Economic Freedom" (Mercatus).

I know, I know, you lib's will want to explain why it really isn't happening...but it is.

Again, we're losing our prosperity because we're losing our freedom.

simchaland says

Ugh, you know... Really, do any one of you know any teachers personally? Are any one of you in education? Do any you actually know what's really going on in the schools in your neighborhood? Do any of you get involved with your local PTA or even your local schools?

Yes, I know and been involved. There are a lot of issues out there. Teacher unions fight to keep illegals in schools just so they can be paid for attendance, and than bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator. There is way too much crap to list.

http://www.lumosity.com/personal-training-plan

Perhaps more regulation will help stem the tide of companies flowing out of the Golden State. Or perhaps more taxes will surely help. No? Maybe more frivolous lawsuits would do the trick.

Or maybe one of the following could help: higher consumer costs thru additional workplace mandates, increased employer liability, job killing legislation, money "growth", more political correctness, and more tariffs. Heck, any additional intervention by the Leviathan ought to help, yes?

Honest Abe says

Maybe more frivolous lawsuits would do the trick.

Nice talking point, but there's no indication that this is a problem. Care to provide proof that this is out of control or that it's disproportionate to other states or that it has been even increasing? Bet you can't.

In fact, if anything, tech companies should be most afraid of suits in Texas.

Corntrollio, you're right. According to the Institute for Legal Reform, California ranks 46th out of 50. So I guess things could be worse.

Honest Abe says

According to the Institute for Legal Reform, California ranks 46th out of 50. So I guess things could be worse.

Yes, because the US Chamber of Commerce is generally AWESOME at being an objective source based on data.

Nice talking point. Care to provide proof that the Institutes figures are wrong? California's hostile legal environment places the state about as close to the bottom as any state can get...46 out of 50 is right near the bottom, isn't it?

Honest Abe says

Care to provide proof that the Institutes figures are wrong?

Yes, after you answer my questions first instead of display anecdotes from a lobbying organization. :p

"Tort reform" in and of itself is the biggest talking point of all. There is little evidence that tort payouts have been increasing or that some larger number of suits aren't being thrown out. This is particularly true for personal injury suits based on medical malpractice -- if anything, payouts are decreasing relative to inflation.

When G.W.H. Bush signed The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) civil rights law in 1990, the intent was to prohibit discrimination based on disability and provide access for the disabled. Instead, sleazy attorneys have abused the law by filing TENS OF THOUSANDS of predatory ADA lawsuits, not meant to improve access for the disabled, but to extract money from small business owners, especially in California.

More than ever, when California companies crack under the strain, they to move to a more business friendly state, why shouldn't they?

DISHonest Abe, please refrain from PLAGIARIZING someone else's work, You should quote and attribute it.

You have lifted text from this article:

http://www.sbsun.com/pointofview/ci_18712378

The article in question leaps from anecdotal example of one possible ambulance chaser abusing the law to TENS OF THOUSANDS without backing up this claim. Didn't even name the one lawyer, making it unnecessarily difficult to verify. It's an assertion, not a proof. I could as easily say because I claim I saw one caregiver using their employers handicap tag to park, that we should eliminate all handicap parking.

Vicente says

DISHonest Abe, please refrain from PLAGIARIZING someone else's work, You should quote and attribute it.

Nice. Someone got pwned.

Again, proof please. Show me that payouts have been increasing. Show me that frivolous cases aren't being dismissed. Show me it's disproportionate to other states. I have given you several frameworks to support your assertion.

The US Chamber "study" (if you can call it that) is also based on anecdote and rumor if you look at the methodology. It's largely a way for GCs to bitch about stereotypes. It does not discuss payouts, it does not compare number of lawsuits, it does not compare lawsuits to dismissal rates, and it doesn't do much of anything except perpetuate stereotypes.

Again, I'm telling you, ask tech companies about patent lawsuits in Texas.

Vicente says

What is the "right" ratio of debt to GDP?

This just hit me Vincent, the ratio used to be a good risk in housing is about 30% , right? So, maybe our debt for the next years budget should never be more than 30% of our GDP (lets use the GDP that finds the CPI they use to figure SSI COLA). Is that stupid of kinda make sense?