patrick.net

Yes here's some of your people and businesses fleeing California.

http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/Immigration---CLU-126349973.html

However I thought it was the sort of fleeing Bap would want.

Outside of FreeRepublic, I don't find a lot of actual verifiable data about companies leaving or not.

Example I find one story that pointedly mentions Fujitsu FronTech leaving California. When I dig around I find no press releases from Fujitsu about moving. I do see stuff about corporate downsizing and reorg. Perhaps they are collapsing divisions, doing layoffs, moving it back to a smaller Japan office. I dunno, not clearcut from what I see.

Honest Abe says

Blah, blah, blah, waah, waah, waah. Companies continue to leave the state while you libs ingore and deny the reality of the situation...or try to defend it.

Perhaps more regulation, more taxes, more unions, and more lawsuits will help. Is that what you think?

I have not stated any political orientation. I am simply trying to have a fact-based decision here. You are not making arguments, but rather stating talking points. That's not interesting or novel, and doesn't really foster a true discussion or sharing of ideas. I gave you what would seem to be a very easy task, based on your professed ideology, and you still can't do it. Don't blame me for your ignorance, if that's the issue here.

Vicente says

Example I find one story that pointedly mentions Fujitsu FronTech leaving California. When I dig around I find no press releases from Fujitsu about moving.

As I mentioned, the GE X-Ray thing was very widely circulated, but is ultimately a de minimis number of employees at GE Healthcare, but people seized on it. It's hard to say what people will care about.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily rely on the Freepers for accuracy. Fujitsu FronTech is moving manufacturing from its North American HQ in Foothill Ranch, CA in Orange County to Plattsburgh, NY where it already has presence, i.e. from CA, a "high tax state," to NY, another one. Sales, ops, and R&D are staying put, but this consolidates manufacturing with its existing logistics operation in NY:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110415005219/en/Fujitsu-Frontech-North-America-Move-Point-Sale

no EPA: Yeah who needs clean water? Chemicals and radioactive waste will strenthen Americans over time as our bodies mutate.

no CARB & no Air Pollution Control District: Yeah, no one needs clean air. You can buy oxygen in tanks these days and there are filtered masks available. Buying oxygen and masks will keep people employed in the factories of Asia. And if global warming is more than a libruhl fantasy then it will be good for tourism to have tropical weather in Greenland.

no AFLCIO & no Teamsters: Who needs stinkin' worker representation? Employers are naturally beneficent to to their employees. Employers have never mistreated any workers, ever. Workers deserve only to work. Any pay or benefits is beyond what an employer should be required to provide. Workers should be grateful to have a purpose in life by having a job.

no OSHA & no Industrial Labor Law: Yeah, who needs safety rules or any industrial standards? Children should have a "Right to Work." It's good for them. It builds character. If they lose a limb they learn to overcome adversity.

no Affirmitive Action & no GLAD compliance: Yeah, no one wants minorities or faggots working for them. Fags should just accept that they are subhuman gross sinners who die of AIDS from butt sex. They deserve to be insulted and we should definitely teach our children to ignore them, warn them about their diseased nature, or ridicule them openly in public. We definitely don't need these laws.

no Maternity Leave law & no Fraternity Leave law: Mothers should simply give birth to their babies while at work and keep working immediately after a small unpaid 5 minute break to wipe off before resuming their work. If it was good enough for the serfs in the Middle Ages to bive birth in the fields and to continue working immediately after, it's good for us now. And children should be raised at work and given jobs as soon as possible anyway. They don't need any "support" from family. It takes a corporation to raise a child.

no Handicap Access law: Yeah, those damn crips are crippled because their parents sinned like it says in the Good Book. They should just accept their lot in life and never venture outside. It would save all of us from having to look at their gross deformities.

no Obama mandated health care: Yeah. who needs health care? No one. If you get sick you should just be allowed to die in peace. In the animal kingdom it's "survival of the fittest." We're allowing too many sick people to reproduce. It muddies the gene pool. And old people shouldn't have MediCare. They don't produce anything so they should expect nothing. Why don't they die already and relieve us of their burden?

no fear of being sued for bogus horseshit like WalMart, K-Mart, Savemart, Sears, and every other big corp gets sued for here.: Yeah because big corporations always have the best of intentions and protect their workers and customers from any possible harm. They never cut corners to make a profit, ever. They never discriminate against anyone. Only people who work hard get ahead.

Bap33 says

.... would someone please affix a "Conservative" and a "Liberal" to each of those things I listed so we may all give thanks where thanks is due.

I wouldn't dream of depriving you of a job you are more than capable of doing yourself. Get to work. Stop being lazy.

you did not read my second post for clarification ... but, since you have your paties all bunched up already, don't bother. Just sit there in your poopy pants and blame conservative America for all of your ills.

Bap33 says

you did not read my second post for clarification ... but, since you have your paties all bunched up already, don't bother. Just sit there in your poopy pants and blame conservative America for all of your ills.

Well I don't wear panties and I don't poop my pants but I will place the blame for the country's ills where it belongs. Conservatives are to blame for the mess we are in today. It's good to see you finally admit that.

Simchaland - you're out of your mind - along with the rest of your left wing, progressive, socialistic, liberal, progressive buddies.

Its you idiots that want:
Larger government
More social spending
More taxes
More affirmative action
More abortion
More bureaucracies
More government spending
More welfare
More business regulation
More bad changes
More inflation

Conservatives know you can't spend more than you take in. Liberal politicians (especially) pander for votes by promising things that can't be paid for - at least during their lifetime...thereby schakeling future generations with the burden of paying the bill.

You idiots are morally bankrupt. Oh, but you argue SUCH a good game. But your stupid arguments are being slowly crushed by the weight of reality - in case you haven't noticed.

Step away from your rights and no one will be hurt.

Honest Abe says

Its you idiots that want:
Larger government
More social spending
More taxes
More affirmative action
More abortion
More bureaucracies
More government spending
More welfare
More business regulation
More bad changes
More inflation

they are building soviet union failure 2.0

Do you right wingers even try anymore, or have you given up?

HousingWatcher says

Do you right wingers even try anymore, or have you given up?

I'm sure they'll say that the raises under the republicans were warranted because the Dems caused the problem, while the raises under the Dems was their fault.

If your hand is caught in the cookie jar, just blame it on a defective jar.

wouldn't it make more sense for the debt limit to be a percentage of GDP instead of just a random number?

Debt limit is nonsense in the first place.

Don't want to spend it don't vote for the budget bill.

would you respond to my post please. I think my point may be valid.

OK I'll bite percentage of GDP is slightly less insane. Propose away if you like but GOTP is I suspect uninterested in your idea, as it could then be gamed by whoever calculated the GDP figures.

Japan debt to GDP ratio has been 225% for ages and they don't seem to have turned into cannibal anarchy.

Vicente says

Japan debt to GDP ratio has been 225% for ages and they don't seem to have turned into cannibal anarchy.

But they've been hit by multiple earthquakes and tsunamis. Coincidence?

hmmm .... is the GDP easy to monkey with? Anyways, it makes sense to me to tie the debt to the income function

I disagree. You are going further than just not embracing Keynesian theories. You're advocating the opposite of Keynesian policies, which everyone knows would be bad.

Sure for a household it makes sense. But in a household, increasing your spending does not increase your gross income (except to the extent that you might be motivated to make more to minimize debt).

By the way, the "debt" refers to total debt. GDP is a number that can can even decrease. Decreasing spending doesn't decrease debt, it only decreases future debt. So what you are suggesting is that if we go in to a recession, that is when we should pay down debt ? That's like saying that when you are unemployed is the time when you must pay down debt.

But let's assume you mean that the annual deficit should be tied to GDP. Even this doesn't really make sense.

I think everyone knows the following is how it should be:

In times of growing or booming economy we should be running surpluses, with money actually somehow put aside. Then when recessions come, that is when deficit spending should happen (which might only mean keeping the spending the same as it was - while tax revenues decrease or don't increase as expected due to the recession).

I really do think that everyone knows that's is how it should be, but instead we have big wars to wage, and we need to have a military that's bigger than all the others put together, etc. And then there's the politicians, crawling all over each other to get their share, for their "constituents," the corruption, and so on.

Oh, and let's not forget the selfish and greedy crowd that will say (no matter how low tax rates are) that we need to have lower taxes to grow the economy. How has that worked out for us ?

elliemae says

But they've been hit by multiple earthquakes and tsunamis. Coincidence?

No that's just a consequence of not being Christian enough.

Bap33 says

hmmm .... is the GDP easy to monkey with? Anyways, it makes sense to me to tie the debt to the income function

Like any figure, people argue incessantly over how it's measured. Do you agree with official inflation numbers?

Setting that aside, it's the same problem. What is the "right" ratio of debt to GDP? I dunno, neither does anyone else. Whatever ceiling seemed like a great idea when times are good, will seem like a disastrous choice when it conflicts with political needs of the moment. Example back during the 90's Newt & Clinton and that crowd seemed on the verge of balancing the budget and actually paying down the debt. Then Bush Jr. got into office and suddenly as Cheney said "deficits don't matter" and the ratio would have been INFINITE and we were off again. Now that the debt has piled up to something enormous and it's very late in the game I'm sure certain parties would pick a very low number.

Tying deficits inverse to gdp growth might work. If growth is low or negative, you can borrow, if its significantly positive you must pay down debt.

Exceptions could be made for total war as well, but only if there is a draft and the combined gdp of the countries we are at war with are at least two thirds of our own

69 companies left California during the first quarter of 2011, the fastest rate ever.

California ranks # 49 for "Business Tax Climate" and # 48 for "Economic Freedom" (Mercatus).

I know, I know, you lib's will want to explain why it really isn't happening...but it is.

Again, we're losing our prosperity because we're losing our freedom.

simchaland says

Ugh, you know... Really, do any one of you know any teachers personally? Are any one of you in education? Do any you actually know what's really going on in the schools in your neighborhood? Do any of you get involved with your local PTA or even your local schools?

Yes, I know and been involved. There are a lot of issues out there. Teacher unions fight to keep illegals in schools just so they can be paid for attendance, and than bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator. There is way too much crap to list.

http://www.lumosity.com/personal-training-plan

Perhaps more regulation will help stem the tide of companies flowing out of the Golden State. Or perhaps more taxes will surely help. No? Maybe more frivolous lawsuits would do the trick.

Or maybe one of the following could help: higher consumer costs thru additional workplace mandates, increased employer liability, job killing legislation, money "growth", more political correctness, and more tariffs. Heck, any additional intervention by the Leviathan ought to help, yes?

Honest Abe says

Maybe more frivolous lawsuits would do the trick.

Nice talking point, but there's no indication that this is a problem. Care to provide proof that this is out of control or that it's disproportionate to other states or that it has been even increasing? Bet you can't.

In fact, if anything, tech companies should be most afraid of suits in Texas.

Corntrollio, you're right. According to the Institute for Legal Reform, California ranks 46th out of 50. So I guess things could be worse.

Honest Abe says

According to the Institute for Legal Reform, California ranks 46th out of 50. So I guess things could be worse.

Yes, because the US Chamber of Commerce is generally AWESOME at being an objective source based on data.

Nice talking point. Care to provide proof that the Institutes figures are wrong? California's hostile legal environment places the state about as close to the bottom as any state can get...46 out of 50 is right near the bottom, isn't it?

Honest Abe says

Care to provide proof that the Institutes figures are wrong?

Yes, after you answer my questions first instead of display anecdotes from a lobbying organization. :p

"Tort reform" in and of itself is the biggest talking point of all. There is little evidence that tort payouts have been increasing or that some larger number of suits aren't being thrown out. This is particularly true for personal injury suits based on medical malpractice -- if anything, payouts are decreasing relative to inflation.

When G.W.H. Bush signed The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) civil rights law in 1990, the intent was to prohibit discrimination based on disability and provide access for the disabled. Instead, sleazy attorneys have abused the law by filing TENS OF THOUSANDS of predatory ADA lawsuits, not meant to improve access for the disabled, but to extract money from small business owners, especially in California.

More than ever, when California companies crack under the strain, they to move to a more business friendly state, why shouldn't they?

DISHonest Abe, please refrain from PLAGIARIZING someone else's work, You should quote and attribute it.

You have lifted text from this article:

http://www.sbsun.com/pointofview/ci_18712378

The article in question leaps from anecdotal example of one possible ambulance chaser abusing the law to TENS OF THOUSANDS without backing up this claim. Didn't even name the one lawyer, making it unnecessarily difficult to verify. It's an assertion, not a proof. I could as easily say because I claim I saw one caregiver using their employers handicap tag to park, that we should eliminate all handicap parking.

Vicente says

DISHonest Abe, please refrain from PLAGIARIZING someone else's work, You should quote and attribute it.

Nice. Someone got pwned.

Again, proof please. Show me that payouts have been increasing. Show me that frivolous cases aren't being dismissed. Show me it's disproportionate to other states. I have given you several frameworks to support your assertion.

The US Chamber "study" (if you can call it that) is also based on anecdote and rumor if you look at the methodology. It's largely a way for GCs to bitch about stereotypes. It does not discuss payouts, it does not compare number of lawsuits, it does not compare lawsuits to dismissal rates, and it doesn't do much of anything except perpetuate stereotypes.

Again, I'm telling you, ask tech companies about patent lawsuits in Texas.

Vicente says

What is the "right" ratio of debt to GDP?

This just hit me Vincent, the ratio used to be a good risk in housing is about 30% , right? So, maybe our debt for the next years budget should never be more than 30% of our GDP (lets use the GDP that finds the CPI they use to figure SSI COLA). Is that stupid of kinda make sense?

Vicente says

What is the "right" ratio of debt to GDP?

Sucks that so much of our debt is housing debt.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=1Hs

Most of us has been living in this country for hundreds of years, have we not? Where did all the equity go between generations???

Much of that debt is just the cost of the title to land, too. The house is almost secondary in many places.

The land title's production cost is pennies, yet we pay so much for it.

Bap33 says

This just hit me Vincent, the ratio used to be a good risk in housing is about 30% , right? So, maybe our debt for the next years budget should never be more than 30% of our GDP (lets use the GDP that finds the CPI they use to figure SSI COLA). Is that stupid of kinda make sense?

30% sounds good. Now if only we had some grownups who would keep an eye on stuff like this, and when the party gets too rowdy say "hey gang, this is a BUBBLE and y'all should stop!". So far we've been poor at this part. When it's BOOM time nobody wants to hear the Negative Nancies like Patrick. They always laugh at this guy:

I mean it was only a decade ago that all the big investment bankers were colluding to dismantle those staid capital reserve ratios they used to live under just fine.

Honest Abe says

When G.W.H. Bush signed The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) civil rights law in 1990, the intent was to prohibit discrimination based on disability and provide access for the disabled. Instead, sleazy attorneys have abused the law by filing TENS OF THOUSANDS of predatory ADA lawsuits, not meant to improve access for the disabled, but to extract money from small business owners, especially in California.

More than ever, when California companies crack under the strain, they to move to a more business friendly state, why shouldn't they?

The ADA is a federal law and has nothing to do with states. Maybe California has the most ADA lawsuits since it is the most populated state?

Bap33 says

Is that stupid of kinda make sense?

I know you're talking to Vincent, but just wondering whether you understand. I'm sure you must, but then I don't understand what you're suggesting.

The deficit is the annual amount by which our government spending exceeds our govt revenues. Currently I believe the annual deficit is near 10% of GDP, which is two high (note GDP growth has been terrible - a big part of the problem).

Our debt is our total accumulated debt, currently near 100% of GDP.
There are three ways (at least) for debt as a percentage of GDP to shrink. Either run a surplus or default, or increase GDP by more than you increase the debt.

But since debt is now 100% of GDP, even running a surplus somehow next year, might only bring the debt down to 95% of GDP.

We need higher GDP and lower deficits. But since government spending (deficit spending) contributes so much to our current economy, this is not a simple problem.

In boom or even just moderately good economic times times, I really like the idea of having a rule that we must run a surplus. That is, I do think there is something to your idea, of forcing the issue, but it is immensely complicated by our government's significant role in the economy, which is appropriate for modern times.

Bush's tax cuts, killing what were overestimated to be "surpluses as far as the eye can see," was one of the greater government mistakes of modern times. But it's easy to understand how it happens. The leaders are all rich, and there is a retarded philosophy out there that says even when taxes are low, lowering them more, will help the economy so much that it will increase revenue to the govt.

You can almost see the wheels turning in the typical rich guy's head. "You mean if I believe this, then I get to believe that more money for me(via lower taxes), is the best thing for everyone ? That is SO AWESOME !!"

Bush probably also saw the cuts as helping to reduce the chance of a bad recession at a time when it was extremely natural to have one (that is dealing with the deflation of the stock market's irrational exuberance we had going in to the millennium.) Bush was right in thinking that a bad recession would have been bad for him politically. But look at the cost of his tax policies.

We put off the big recession, and had a much worse one later instead.

I think something like a balanced budget or surplus when GDP is growing by a certain amount, and a sliding scale, allowing deficits up to a certain level,, maybe 6% of GDP when in a recession , and maybe real small deficits when the GDP growth is flat might make sense.

Strong growth should require surpluses, mostly so that when GDP and revenue drops, it won't cause deficits to be too big.

But it has to rely on well defined measures of past GDP, and I don't know that those exist.

marcus says

We put off the big recession, and had a much worse one later instead.

Wasn't really the tax cuts that made the system unsustainable. . .

Here's an update of an earlier chart:

yellow is the cumulative household debt stimulus
red is the cumulative deficit-spending stimulus under Bush
green is the cumulative deficit-spending stimulus under Obama.