patrick.net

Jones is one of the most common last names in America. It is just a phrase. The "Jones" represent anyone who appears to be more successful than you in material possession that you strive to imitate..... whether you can afford it or not. The Jones could be any of any race or nationality. That is my understanding.

The Jones family is currently underwater on a bubble purchased fortress home. Also underwater on thier starter home they 'kept to rent out' instead of selling in 2006 since 'it was thier retirement' (meaning they had 4 incomes, two houses, two jobs).

Now they are down to one income and they hang out at 'youwalkaway.com' message boards and post angry rants about how evil the banks are for not reducing thier principal balances by the 400k they blew on remodeling, vacations to europe, mercedes/bmw, etc.

After the divorce all Ms. Jones will have left is the fake boobs bought with HELOC $ - paid for by taxpayers who ate the loss on the foreclosures in the bank bailouts/TARP.

But I have to say: what a great country! Rack up as much debt as you can, then declare BK every 7 years. Thats what the Jones' do. It seems dumb if you have a decent net worth, but if you are a 'living paycheck to paycheck chump' then it makes perfect sense (that is half the country).

eggsarebetterfried says

Jones is one of the most common last names in America.

I thought it was Smith.

http://names.mongabay.com/most_common_surnames.htm

PockyClipsNow says

Rack up as much debt as you can, then declare BK every 7 years.

I agree with everything you said but the banks should know that there is a risk and they do know and also know that there will be free money from govt. just in case. Government and banks nexus must be broken to have a free and fair market and democracy. We are slowly moving away from democracy with so much of heavy govt. interference in the market.

bubblesitter says

eggsarebetterfried says

Jones is one of the most common last names in America.

I thought it was Smith.

http://names.mongabay.com/most_common_surnames.htm

Based on your link, both Smith and Jones fit the description, to my mind.

chip_designer says

I was wondering that title of a movie, who are the Joneses in America?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses

The phrase was popularized when a comic strip of the same name was created by cartoonist Arthur R. "Pop" Momand.[1] The strip debuted in 1913, distributed by Associated Newspapers. The strip ran in American newspapers for 26 years, and was eventually adapted into books, films, and musical comedies. The "Joneses" of the title were neighbors of the strip's main characters, and were unseen characters spoken of but never actually seen in person.[2] In the 1936 book, "The Next 100 Years", C.C. Furnas notes: "Keeping with the Joneses" descended from the spreading of the peacock's tail.[3] An alternative explanation is that the Joneses of the saying refer to Edith Wharton's father's wealthy family. A good illustration of the phenomenon in popular culture is a 2009 American film The Joneses written and directed by Derrick Borte.

thomas.wong1986 says

The "Joneses" of the title were neighbors of the strip's main characters, and were unseen characters spoken of but never actually seen in person.

A dog chasing its own shadow! Personally I prefer to watch the Bundy's

Immigrants are the biggest Joneses there is.

That's why they are here, so they feel the Jonesing at the source of Jonesdom.

Of course they have their home culture to fall back on, so they can get more bang for their Joneses buck. They don't have to burn out on the worst American culture has to offer, they can always throw on a burka, dance some salsa or meditate in their Buddha garden.

Peru's consumerism and commercialism was a snap shot of where we were in the 90s.

We're not all that anymore. But people all over the world sure love hearing about the worst idiots we have to offer.

chip_designer says

can we be bluntly honest or politically incorrect just for this thread?

No. This is the Bay Area, land of political correctness.

I was wondering that title of a movie, who are the Joneses in America?
Do they include immigrants living in america:
any immigrant who came to USA for university , work visa, tourist.

We are a patchwork nation, a patchwork of communities. The Joneses of somewhere like Cupertino don't look like the Joneses of some other places.

Or the Joneses are basically the white caucasian or african american who were born and grew up here in the "america" way of life.

Them too.

And in this forum of people , are you a Jones or immigrant?

Some people are both and some are neither one. Nobody's tryin to keep up with us, so we ain't Joneses. Not immigrants either unless you consider one of us relocating here from the San Joaquin Valley as an immigrant.

Looks like chip_designer himself is not sure what the joneses are, and so do I. My guess is that I am not one of them. Keeping up with others never was my priority, and I think it shouldn't be a one to a guy like me, who is having hard time to keep his own things together. I will watch the movie first and see what I can say about it.

the majority of chinese or indians in silicon valley are big savers by nature of their past life from their home countries. A lot of them also live in the fortress(example cupertino), but they do not behave like "keeping up with the joneses".

but I also think that people who live in the fortress is because either they have lived all their life(established communities such as palo alto), or because they are also successful in their life. Some Joneses there for sure.

In general, the Joneses are those people who did not have earnings potential , or stable career, or had a momentum job(a job that was hot at that time and easy making money) but still wanted to live at large, had the mentality of "me too": if my friend have , i got to have; if they bought 5 houses, we should do that too; if they use HELOC, we can too.

so excluding the chinese and indians, the joneses are either
latinos
african americans
white

how can we expect the government to do any of the right things for the housing or for the economy, that you guys so passionately suggest and discuss every F$&!ing day, when the government is mainly composed of all three ethnicities above?

chip_designer says

the majority of chinese or indians in silicon valley are big savers by nature of their past life from their home countries. A lot of them also live in the fortress(example cupertino), but they do not behave like "keeping up with the joneses".

20% of Cupertino in 1990 were Asian. 1990, there was no such thing as "Fortress". Foreign ? nada 2-3rd generation asian american. Either way...2-3 kids + gran dad and mom... lots of high monthly fixed costs....

chip_designer says

the joneses are either

The cartoon of long ago has been replaced with...

"Keeping up with the Kardashians"

Do try to keep up with what hip and kewl now days.

The Joneses are a shorthand for the consipicuous consumption of the middle and late 20th century. You could say they culminated and suddenly dissappeared in the 2006 housing bust, which was probably the only logical conclusion of 70 years of on-loan consumerism.

It's interesting to visit the once-exclusive housing developments in Longwood/Heathrow, Florida from my childhood. The cars are not as new as they used to be, more people mowing their own lawns, more vacant houses and For Sale signs, HOA's disbanded or underfunded and entrance gates looking shabby, and there is even the case of Sabal Point, a golf course estate "community" that has shut its golf course down and now everybody's house abutts a mosquito bog on the 18th hole. This is where the Joneses used to live.

chip_designer says

In general, the Joneses are those people who did not have earnings potential , or stable career, or had a momentum job(a job that was hot at that time and easy making money) but still wanted to live at large, had the mentality of "me too": if my friend have , i got to have; if they bought 5 houses, we should do that too; if they use HELOC, we can too.

If you are going to redefine something, at least coin a new word or phrase for it.

Nations and Governments played "Keeping up with the Joneses" for the whole decade of 2000's."

Especially India and China.

chip_designer says

excluding the chinese and indians

Are you kidding me? Here in the BA the worst of the lot I have seen are the Indian and Asian populations. The need to have a house in the right neighborhood, the obsessive need for your 2-4 children to be in the "right" schools, the need to drive a BMW, Mercedes or Lexus, the weekends golfing with your other IT middle management friends. The trips to Hawaii.

The Indians I know are the worst offenders I know.

Tude says

chip_designer says

excluding the chinese and indians

Are you kidding me? Here in the BA the worst of the lot I have seen are the Indian and Asian populations. The need to have a house in the right neighborhood, the obsessive need for your 2-4 children to be in the "right" schools, the need to drive a BMW, Mercedes or Lexus, the weekends golfing with your other IT middle management friends. The trips to Hawaii.

The Indians I know are the worst offenders I know.

CD has must be talking about the Eskimos.

Tude is right on the money. While newer Indian immigrants might be more frugal, a lot of Indian people who came in my parents generation are all about keeping up with the Joneses. Some people deficit spend while some people spend in their means, but regardless, most are caught up in keeping up with the Joneses. This is true about almost every Indian community I've seen in the United States.

House in the right neighborhood?....Absolutely
Children in the 'right' schools?.....No doubt

While many Indians live within their means, with regard to tipping at restaurants, this doesn't stop a lot of Indians from obsessing over gold and diamonds.

Oh my god, you guys miss the point. Sure by human nature, every person loves to spend money, including indians and chinese. But the key thing about being a Jones is that , the Joneses use whatever financial instruments to spend money that they do not have or don't have ability to pay it off every month. Whereas, the chinese and indians, they do spend, but they still have good jobs to support their lifestyle, whatever that may be.

The going to best schools thing, it is their culture, they want the best education they could get for their kids.

Tude says

Are you kidding me? Here in the BA the worst of the lot I have seen are the Indian and Asian populations. The need to have a house in the right neighborhood, the obsessive need for your 2-4 children to be in the "right" schools, the need to drive a BMW, Mercedes or Lexus, the weekends golfing with your other IT middle management friends. The trips to Hawaii.

The Indians I know are the worst offenders I know.

Are you serious? I've met probably 2 Indians ever with a BMW or Mercedes (never met one with a Lexus) and they were both in their 20s with their first job out of college, their parents weren't happy about it, and it later got traded in for a much less expensive car. It's more like Camry, Accord, Accord, Camry, Camry, Caravan, Camry, Corolla, Camry, Camry, Sienna, Civic, Accord, Corolla, Camry. You'd also think from this description that you'd see lots of Indians on the golf course if this were true, but I certainly don't. Maybe 1 foursome with 3 white guys and an Indian guy out of the mostly white crowd.

More than 40% of the Indian population in the Bay Area lives in San Jose, Sunnyvale, or Fremont. Add in Santa Clara (13.64%) and Union City (11.46%), and you're almost at 50%. Mission San Jose is perhaps the "right" school, but none of those towns are known for being fancy or the "right" towns. Is San Ramon fancy? Cupertino has maybe 5% of the Bay Area Indian population, for reference.

MMR says

While newer Indian immigrants might be more frugal, a lot of Indian people who came in my parents generation are all about keeping up with the Joneses. Some people deficit spend while some people spend in their means, but regardless, most are caught up in keeping up with the Joneses. This is true about almost every Indian community I've seen in the United States.

I call BS on this one too. The older generation who showed up in the 70s is even cheaper than the current ones. Most of them have lived in the same tract home since the 80s and probably still live there if they haven't moved in with one of their kids. Most of them have good pensions from working for the same company for 20+ years and good savings. Most of them are too busy saving up for their annual or biennial ticket and saving up their vacation time to go to India rather than Hawaii. There's probably far more gossip about keeping up with the Patels, than actually doing so.

Let's all make stereotypes that are demonstrably false. :) It's awesome!

Joneses are not 'offenders' they are the backbone of our economy!

Even though many of them decleare BK every 7 years, they are paying 33% interest on credit cards for much of that time. Credit card biz is profitable (jobs+tax revenue), retail is profitable (jobs+tax revenue), and auto/real estate is highly profitable (jobs+tax revenue). Also they buy apple products and chips designed by chp_designer (on credit of course. lol)

Isn't it the democrats line 'jobs, jobs,jobs'? If you think deeper these jobs must come from over extended debt slaves, no?
They should be congratulated for taking one for the team so to speak. As Bush said after 911 - GO SPEND MONEY. right?

From what I've read and seen, the Asian-equiv of "keeping up with the Joneses" is "keeping up with the Changs."

With the Indians, (I agree with Tude above), its "keeping up with the Guptas."

~Misstrial

I think lots of people are being silly. I know plenty of fiscally responsible whites, Indians & Asians. I also know plenty of fiscally irresponsible individuals of these ethnicities. It looks to me like some people are taking things personally & trying to defend "their" race. Get over it. AMERICANS in general are bad with money, and after a couple of generations your kids are AMERICAN, and probably as bad as anyone else, regardless of something superficial like skin color. Being born & raised here means that you are force-fed marketing bullshit from day one & are surrounded by people with more "stuff" than you. I think that most people that are raised in that environment will have a hard time avoiding over-consumption. I know, everyone here is a master of finance.

If you have NOT seen Indians & Asians in new/expensive cars, you need to get out more. White folks aren't the only ones behind the wheel in them. For the most part, it seems like it is mostly the younger generation behind the wheel (25-35 year old demographic) rather than any particular race.

Maybe before anyone gets to go making claims about any particular race they should state their ethnicity. I'm 27 & white.

And before someone asks, it is 21 years old and I paid $2000 for it in 2005. Never mind how much money has gone into it since then...

call BS on this one too. The older generation who showed up in the 70s is even cheaper than the current ones. Most of them have lived in the same tract home since the 80s and probably still live there if they haven't moved in with one of their kids. Most of them have good pensions from working for the same company for 20+ years and good savings. Most of them are too busy saving up for their annual or biennial ticket and saving up their vacation time to go to India rather than Hawaii. There's probably far more gossip about keeping up with the Patels, than actually doing so.

Let's all make stereotypes that are demonstrably false. :) It's awesome!

......All live in the same tract housing?....maybe in the BA, but most people traded up long ago.....I'm using my family and family friends as a reference here, not people who came less than 20 years ago.....By the way, Patels are different than Singhs and Reddys, as Patels, stereotypically speaking, are more into business (now most want their kids to be professionals). Like BMWMan91 says, you probably don't know that many Indians if you haven't seen them living in big houses and driving Lexuses......

As for bad examples, using the Fremont hills, who do you think lives there.....people who emigrated to the US from India and other asian groups primarily.....This is relatively easy to verify by looking at the demographic background of students enrolled at MSJHS.....Unlike your belief that the 'old generation' professionals still live in their tract housing from the 70's......If, in fact that is the case, it is only so because they didn't make enough money to trade up. Virtually everyone who has money traded up long ago.

People from the older generation don't mean parents looking after their grandchildren. It means people who came as professionals in the 70's. My apology if that caused a misunderstanding.

Some of my wife's friends who make less than 250K combined are looking for 800K homes in Santa Clara while other people making millions have houses in silver creek valley that they could pay off in a year. So, my point is, while some Indians are frugal, especially about tipping, others are leveraged to the hilt.

As an Indian person who knows a lot of Indian people, I am well-aware of the pressures associated with keeping up with the Joneses......Believe me, the people I know who are caught up in that nonsense don't see people such as yourself, regardless of how much money you may have as 'competition'.

I assure it's not gossip about 'keeping up'....rather it is real competition......real stupid competition, mind you, but real and not imagined.

You are correct about one thing though. Indians who travel are much more likely to go to India, but with the current generation of Indian Americans, that trend is going the way of the dodo bird.

More than 40% of the Indian population in the Bay Area lives in San Jose, Sunnyvale, or Fremont. Add in Santa Clara (13.64%) and Union City (11.46%), and you're almost at 50%. Mission San Jose is perhaps the "right" school, but none of those towns are known for being fancy or the "right" towns. Is San Ramon fancy? Cupertino has maybe 5% of the Bay Area Indian population, for reference.

It may not be the 'right' town, in terms of prestige, but in terms of price, all the houses there are expensive compared to US standards, which is what this entire blog is about. And those who go to MSJHS live in the hills and almost all those houses are above a million dollars, if not more.

MMR says

This is true about almost every Indian community I've seen in the United States.

I'd like to point out, MMR, that you said that it's true in every Indian community. Look at places like DC, NY, Texas, and NC, lots of Indians, and many of the people who came here in the 70s (which is what I said when referring to the older generation) typically live in 80s tract homes. In the Bay Area, perhaps this would be a 50s tract home in certain cities.

MMR says

Like BMWMan91 says, you probably don't know that many Indians if you haven't seen them living in big houses and driving Lexuses......

Most of the Indians (again, across the country) I know who came here in the 70s coveted the big house, but never bought it because it costs too much, and now they're too old to do it. They kept looking at the big house for 20+ years, but ultimately never pulled the trigger, and still live in the tract home they bought in in the 80s -- again, across the US (in addition to the places I mentioned above, PA, MO, IL, OH, WI, AL, FL) and even in Ontario, Canada.

Methinks you are specifically talking about the younger generation, particularly some that have made some tech money in the Bay Area and are flashy with it. There are likely many other people who aren't nearly so flashy and are big savers. It's even possible that you are describing one particular group of Indians from one particular Indian state. What you describe is not very common in other cities, and it's not even uniformly like this across the Bay Area, so I don't really understand the stereotyping. If you're talking about some idiot like that guy G, again, you're talking about a very small group of yuppies, and it's hard to generalize from that.

Even among the younger generations (often H-1B types), I've seen many of them living in small 1 or 2BR apartments for an extended period of time (even with kids) before they buy a house further out where there's more space.

MMR says

Some of my wife's friends who make less than 250K combined are looking for 800K homes in Santa Clara while other people making millions have houses in silver creek valley that they could pay off in a year. So, my point is, while some Indians are frugal, especially about tipping, others are leveraged to the hilt.

It's pretty clear you are talking about a small group of people. There are very few people, even in the Bay Area, who make "millions" (as you say) per year, and certainly only a small percentage of those people are Indian.

bmwman91 says

If you have NOT seen Indians & Asians in new/expensive cars, you need to get out more. White folks aren't the only ones behind the wheel in them. For the most part, it seems like it is mostly the younger generation behind the wheel (25-35 year old demographic) rather than any particular race.

I agree with BMWman's characterization. It's likely more young people than anything else. I've still rarely seen an Indian in a BMW or Mercedes. It happens occasionally, but most Indians drive Asian cars and not usually Lexuses.

For all you guys talk about the "right" schools, most Indians I know are more inclined to send their kids to state colleges than to private colleges to save $$$. Very few seem to send them to private schools. That's not to say that Indians don't make up a larger percentage of an Ivy League school's incoming class than you'd think, but rather that many Indians would rather their kid go to a state school than many non-Ivy private schools.

MMR says

And those who go to MSJHS live in the hills and almost all those houses are above a million dollars, if not more.

What you're forgetting is that some of those house are worth more than $1,000,000 NOW, but not when the cheap Indians bought them.

chip_designer says

Whereas, the chinese and indians, they do spend, but they still have good jobs to support their lifestyle, whatever that may be.

They don't buy cars on credit?
They don't finance their house?
Don't they have credit cards, how are they getting credit?
And you don't know broke Chinese or Indian person, living hand to bills? I suggest you start by looking in the Chinese and Indian food restaurant Kitchens. Produce stand workers, convenient store clerks, garment plant workers, domestic help...

Ask them an American Pop culture trivia question, I bet they'll surprise you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually disappointed everyone around the world is enamored with the worst America has to offer.
Like the usual suspects reported on TMZ.

What you're forgetting is that some of those house are worth more than $1,000,000 NOW, but not when the cheap Indians bought them.

That's a good point.....Didn't really think of it that way....But you're probably right about that point.

For all you guys talk about the "right" schools, most Indians I know are more inclined to send their kids to state colleges than to private colleges to save $$$. Very few seem to send them to private schools. That's not to say that Indians don't make up a larger percentage of an Ivy League school's incoming class than you'd think, but rather that many Indians would rather their kid go to a state school than many non-Ivy private schools.

Maybe in California that is true, with all the great UC schools.....but probably less true in say, Ohio

If you have NOT seen Indians & Asians in new/expensive cars, you need to get out more. White folks aren't the only ones behind the wheel in them. For the most part, it seems like it is mostly the younger generation behind the wheel (25-35 year old demographic) rather than any particular race.

I think this point needs further clarification......People who are older and of Indian origin and are long time businesspeople and Doctors (not non-entrepreneurial engineers), many have luxury cars and have had luxury cars for a long time. Nowadays the kids are growing up in the keep up with the Jones mentality and are exhibiting the habit of conspicuous consumption, well, more conspicuously.

They kept looking at the big house for 20+ years, but ultimately never pulled the trigger, and still live in the tract home they bought in in the 80s -- again, across the US (in addition to the places I mentioned above, PA, MO, IL, OH, WI, AL, FL) and even in Ontario, Canada.

........If they didn't pull the trigger on trading up, maybe it's because they aren't self-employed. More likely, you're talking about engineers. Not usually true for doctors and successful businesspeople. This is at least one explanation why many engineers encourage their children to be doctors. In my very large family, it is 100% of the engineers who want their kids to be doctors.

Even among the younger generations (often H-1B types), I've seen many of them living in small 1 or 2BR apartments for an extended period of time (even with kids) before they buy a house further out where there's more space.

........Yes, this is very much on the money. Those guys are relative newcomers and yes, they are a large chunk of the population and very likely not to drive extravagant vehicles.

And you don't know broke Chinese or Indian person, living hand to bills? I suggest you start by looking in the Chinese and Indian food restaurant Kitchens. Produce stand workers, convenient store clerks, garment plant workers, domestic help...

......While up to 11% of Indians in the US are at the poverty line, they are still the largest average earners in the US.. And even these 'hand to mouth' people are usually intent on not being poor forever and are usually ultra-frugal.

MMR says

Maybe in California that is true, with all the great UC schools.....but probably less true in say, Ohio

You would think, but I was distinctly not thinking of Californians when I made that comment. I was thinking of plenty of other states: NY, NC (not just UNC), MO, NJ, SC, IN, PA, GA (not just GaTech), etc.

MMR says

If they didn't pull the trigger on trading up, maybe it's because they aren't self-employed. More likely, you're talking about engineers. Not usually true for doctors and successful businesspeople. This is at least one explanation why many engineers encourage their children to be doctors. In my very large family, it is 100% of the engineers who want their kids to be doctors.

Is your implication that these people I'm thinking of don't have the money? If so, that's distinctly not true. Most of them are cheap and have scrimped and saved a lot and will be comfortable in retirement with their present lifestyle and annual or biennial trips to India. They just had trouble psychologically spending a lot more than their current house because they aren't extravagant.

Sure, almost all Indians want their kids to be doctors, although the percentage who actually become one is well below half. I'm not sure what you're gaining in your argument by mentioning this.

MMR says

People who are older and of Indian origin and are long time businesspeople and Doctors (not non-entrepreneurial engineers), many have luxury cars and have had luxury cars for a long time. Nowadays the kids are growing up in the keep up with the Jones mentality and are exhibiting the habit of conspicuous consumption, well, more conspicuously.

You act like I don't know business people or doctors. Even some of the most successful businesspeople I know still live in their old tract homes, and only one finally moved to a McMansion-type place, although after his kids were married/had kids and he was probably in his 70s, and he still drove a non-Lincoln/non-Cadillac American car (which bucks the stereotype of Japanese cars, of course). I've known 2-doctor families where they drove a 20-year old beat up Subaru, a 10-year old minivan, and bought the cheapest house in a relatively nice neighborhood. Sure, I know plenty of engineers, but the way many of the doctors and businesspeople I know *stayed* rich was to buy cheaper cars and houses.

Again, I still think you're talking about a select group or community within the general Indian population when you say these things. It's hard to make broad generalizations about the Indian diaspora in the US.

As I mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if you were talking about one particular group of Indians you know from one particular state of India. Do you really think Biharis spend like Gujuratis? If so, why?