patrick.net

Thanks for responding. Be interesting to read how, I would just like the info to pass on to some other people who are currently looking into their options. Post the blog if you ever get it.

Somehow I've missed this thread.

I did live and work in Paris, France in the mid 1990's as an International Market Analyst off and on for a couple of years. I studied French along side my finance degree at the Bachelor's level. But I really wasn't great at speaking French until I was forced to use it in the office and just while just living my life in Paris.

I remember the first time I was left alone in the office and I had to answer the phone to take a message. The caller didn't speak any English, of course. I was good at laughing at myself and asking the caller to slow down because I was an American still learning how to speak French. I was able to take the message. I translated it into English. My boss was American. After a few weeks, I felt more comfortable because I was immersed in a sea of French and I was thinking in French. That was the main hurdle, to start thinking in French instead of English.

I would travel back and forth from Paris to the US and I felt like I lived in two countries/continents for a couple of years. I always had a period of adjustment when moving back and forth. After the first couple of times, I got used to it and I became very fluent in French.

I was able to take small excursions on the weekends to cities in Northern France. Chartres and Reims / Eperney were two of my favorite excursions. I actually saw a Rothschild wedding at Chartres Cathedral.

Of course, I spent lots of time exploring Paris. I could go back and still find my way around easily. I knew it like I knew the back of my hand. Even though I've seen much of Paris, I still could see more. I've been to many unusual places in Paris, having made friends there who showed me around and offered me warm hospitality. I even went back to visit some of them when I wasn't working there anymore.

I liked the pace of life in Paris and the attitude around work better than the pace of life in the US and the attitudes we workaholic Americans have around work. Often my French colleagues would be overwhelmed during "busy times" that seemed to me like a typical day in the home office back in the US.

The French work to live. We Americans live to work. I liked the hour to two hour lunch over a shared bottle of wine in the early afternoons when at the office. Not much got done for the first hour after returning to the office. But we stayed later than in the American office. After work (always sometime after 7:00pm or so) we would go out to get a light dinner and to socialize, enjoying what Paris had to offer. A lot of important work got done in the Paris office and it was the main office in Europe. The business expanded a lot when I was working there. So, what at first what looked like a non-chalant attitude toward work to an American eye, was actually a way of working intelligently so that much would be accomplished but without the stress I always experienced in the American office.

We never took work home in the Paris office. People didn't come in on weekends there. I have to say that in the American office while people seemed to live at the office, they got very little actually done. Everyone was busy "looking busy" in a frenzy of activity that wasn't very productive most times, but very stressful. Sure there was a frenzied pace, but little actual progress seemed to be made on important projects until the deadline would approach. The boss's expectation was that you lived to serve the company and you were supposed to make big sacrifices to be at the office after hours, before hours, and on weekends. It was infuriating to me after a while because I learned to get my work, plus a little extra, done during the actual official hours of operation and I'd be called upon to come in on my free time to help others with work that they didn't get done because they weren't focused during the official hours of operation. And it didn't matter that I got more work done in fewer hours than my workmates. The boss judged your commitment to your job by the amount of hours spent at work and the amount of work you took home with you. The amount of work that you did was of less importance than showing that you had great commitment to the company by spending more time there and taking your work home.

The French office was more laid back, but when at the office, they were all about business and the work would actually get done during the hours of operation without the need to come in early, to stay late, to come in on weekends, or to take work home. People seemed to remain more focused and didn't feel the pressure to "look busy." The boss expected that the work would get done during normal operating hours that went little later because of the longer lunch break. But because employees seemed to be truly rested and less stressed, they were able to focus better on their work during the actual official hours of operation. In that office you were judged by how much work you actually accomplished during the day, rather than how much time you spent at the office "looking busy."

Also, in the French office, they had job security because French workers made contracts with not just the employer, but also with the government. An employer has to prove a case against a worker to the government before terminating an employee. Therefore the French employees didn't fear their bosses like the American employees did. It allowed for more creativity, less stress, and the employees genuinely wanted to be productive during work hours.

There is a down side to that system too. If you have a troublesome employee, you may have to keep him or her longer than is prudent in order to build your case against him or her to terminate the contract.

Also, the work visa system in Paris was notoriously slow and Byzantine. Inspectors would come to check visas occasionally. Sometimes when I was "between visas" and waiting for important papers to be processed by the bureaucracy in Paris, I would have to pretend to be French when an inspector would stop by. Or, if that inspector was someone who had come before, I'd make myself scarce during the inspection.

I gained so much from the experience of working in Paris. It has given me a different perspective on employment, business, and life that I wouldn' thave gotten otherwise.

@simchaland

Thanks for the story...I have been to Paris only once.
I didn't take the rudeness personally as an American...My French friend said everyone is just rude to everyone–other French included.

In my youth I spent 10 weeks in an opium induced haze living in a caravan crossing the Arabian desert. A local sheikh invited me to stay with him and enjoy the luxurious bounty of his trade. I particularly enjoyed the varied ample bossomed women in his accompanyment. He was quite a rogue.

Unfortunately, my friend was later killed by the British for smuggling arms.

For what it's worth:

2011 Country RepTrakâ„¢ Global Ranking
Rank * Country * 2011 Country RepTrakâ„¢ Score
1 Canada 74.8
2 Sweden 74.7
3 Australia 74.3
4 Switzerland 74.2
5 New Zealand 73.1
6 Norway 73.1
7 Denmark 71.9
8 Finland 70.5
9 Austria 69.4
10 Netherlands 68.7
11 Germany 68.3
12 Japan 67.2
13 Belgium 65.6
14 Italy 64.6
15 UK 64.2
16 Spain 63.7
17 Ireland 63.6
18 France 62.1
19 Portugal 58.1
20 Singapore 58.0

Source: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/09/27/3942379/canada-is-the-country-with-the.html#ixzz1ZEzMr400

That's about reputation which is about perception. Obviously those voting were influenced by the anti-American liberal global media. Any kind of true ranking of what country is the best place to live must be wrong if it doesn't put the US in the top two or three.

That pisses me off that the liberal global media gets away with publishing that bs.

Don't they know about American exceptionalism ? The ungrateful idiots don't even appreciate all the things we do fighting for freedom all around the world.

I talk to a lot of people from dozens of countries (not all liberals BTW) and this list seems somewhat accurate. What mainly hurt the US (for what it is worth) was the invasion of Iraq pushed by Cheney and Co. I do agree *some* people are anti-American no matter what, but I put them in their place.

marcus says

Any kind of true ranking of what country is the best place to live must be wrong if it doesn't put the US in the top two or three.

no no, America is clearly #1, if you are independently wealthy.

It all depends what people want in order to live.

Some people like beaches...I could care less

I rather be in a city myself. I know people from the midwest that act like Boston is a big city..after being in Shanghai and Beijing every city in the USA for the most part feels like a small town (except NYC).

I've been to France. Paris, Nimes, Avignon, Marsailles and Nice. Nice was good although I could do without the rocky beach...funny as hell to see rules posted and everyone breaking them (no selling food on the beach, no parasailing, no dogs on the beach).

In terms of actually immigrating to another country I think the USA has lower standards than most of the EU and Canada. For visa's it varies quite a bit. China has standards that are a bit low but enforcement is lax.

It should be noted that there is right of blood and right of soil in terms of citizenship. A fair amount of the USA probably can become citizens of other countries with the right paperwork. Ireland used to be extremely generous but it has changed over the past few decades.

marcus says

That's about reputation which is about perception. Obviously those voting were influenced by the anti-American liberal global media. Any kind of true ranking of what country is the best place to live must be wrong if it doesn't put the US in the top two or three.

Depends on who you are talking to. Best place to live for what? For the poor who have no chance of coming to the US yes I'm sure it's top of their list. For people with education, starting to build skills and a career it's a toss up. For the people with established businesses and/or careers, no way. For retirees, absolutely no way.

The anti American liberal global media?? What is that? We managed to tarnish our image on a regular basis without even realizing it most of the time. Incredibly insensitive or just plain stupid statements by US politicians who have zero international experience, rude (very rude frequently) demanding us tourists, government officials misbehaving while stationed overseas, state visits that turn into abbot and costello routines, etc., etc.. Then Iraq happened. The US will never recover its' image. Decades of good will post ww II went right down the toilet.

The difference in peoples perception of America pre Iraq vs post Iraq is sharp and not at all good. People in general used to like Americans as individuals but disliked many of American government policies. That is no longer true many places.

The Us will never shake the worldwide believe that the Iraq invasion was an oil grab or that America is totally hypocritical in lecturing other countries about democracy and human rights while running Guantanamo and doing renditions of people to other countries to be tortured. Sad to say I never travel on my US passport any more unless I am returning to the states where I have to use it. I never know who is watching or why. I also really don't want DHS scrutinizing where I've been and when. Paranoid, but lot's of totally innocent people have had very bad problems with DHS.

I was being facetious. In reality I think we deserve many of the opinions the world has about us.

Sorry Marcus! I didn't catch the sarcasm!

Anyway here is another article with good and bad stuff:

http://finance.yahoo.com/focus-retirement/article/113582/challenges-retiring-abroad-bloomberg?mod=fidelity-readytoretire&cat=fidelity_2010_getting_ready_to_retire#mwpphu-container

For me the answer would be no mainly because all of my family lives in the US except for some cousins that live in AU. But there are other reasons. I grew up in the rural south. I've lived on the east coast, the west coast, and have traveled extensively throughout the US. The truth of the matter is that the US is like 20 countries rolled into one. The people, geography, weather, food, music, culture, art, and history is so incredibly different from one state or region from another that its amazing.

What's ridiculous is that about 90% of Americans will never see any of it. Instead they'll live squished on the coasts, refer to the vast interior as "Flyoverland" and vacation in France. Its ironic. We live in what is perhaps one of the most diverse countries in the world and the people that live here seldom actually see it but yet are only too willing to fly 12 hours to see a totally different country.

That said, the thought of moving to another country has crossed my mind. Only problem is that ALL of the countries on my list suffer from far worse bubbles than even California. NZ, AU, the UK, and parts of France are all grossly more costly than the US or California. One of the worst aspects of California is the cost of living and the last thing I want to do is move somewhere that's even worse. I do like to travel and have been to Europe, South America, and Hawaii ( even though that's technically the US) and feel that immersion in other countries is important but at the same time feel that a lifetime could be spent traveling the US and even then you'd see very little of it.

Even though its not technically another country if I had my way I would move to Hawaii. I've been there 3 times and LOVE it. Its simply paradise and the people there are very chill and laid-back.

bob2356 says

The Us will never shake the worldwide believe that the Iraq invasion was an oil grab

So, helping out Libya and not Syria somehow isn't also about oil???

American in Japan says

For those living in the US now, have you considered living in another country? Which one(s)?

I've watched enough episodes of Locked Up Abroad to know better then to leave the country.

American in Japan says

Is anyone living in Argentina?

Favorable exchange rate, although most goods you'd buy here that are name-brand cost similar amounts there. Buenos Aires is a great city though.

edvard2 says

Even though its not technically another country if I had my way I would move to Hawaii.

No way dude, Barack Obama was allegedly born there, and therefore it must be another country. Shrek/Mars told me. :p

edvard2 says

I've lived on the east coast, the west coast, and have traveled extensively throughout the US. The truth of the matter is that the US is like 20 countries rolled into one. The people, geography, weather, food, music, culture, art, and history is so incredibly different from one state or region from another that its amazing.

What's ridiculous is that about 90% of Americans will never see any of it. Instead they'll live squished on the coasts, refer to the vast interior as "Flyoverland" and vacation in France. Its ironic. We live in what is perhaps one of the most diverse countries in the world and the people that live here seldom actually see it but yet are only too willing to fly 12 hours to see a totally different country.

I've been to well over 30 states (and not just airports or something, and not even for business travel), and have lived in other regions too, and there's some good stuff, but a lot of crappy stuff too. I think you're overstereotyping the supposed stereotypers, but not everything sucks in Flyoverland (or Elvis Country, if you watch the Sopranos), sure.

zzyzzx says

I've watched enough episodes of Locked Up Abroad to know better then to leave the country.

No surprised you're closed-minded. Fits with the rest of the stuff you write too.

I came across this one too for what it's worth:

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/06/9248360-brain-drain-reverses-course-flows-away-from-america

bob2356 said

>"I don't travel on my US passport any more other than coming to the US. The attitude toward Americans has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. People around the world really used to like Americans almost everywhere. They would tell you endlessly that they hated our policies, but they really would be friendly. That has changed. The Iraq war badly tarnished America's image around the world.

If you really think the consulate is going to bend over backwards for you then I would highly recommend not getting into trouble overseas. It ain't going to happen the majority of the time. Consulates are dumping grounds for people owed favors by politicians. Their first priority is maintaining their very comfortable expat colonialist lifestyle and not rocking the boat. Just getting to talk to someone at a consulate is usually about like making a state visit to the king of England."

I have to agree with this.

AIJ, long time no see.

Edit: Two dislikes for welcoming AIJ back after an absence? Give me a break.

I am still here... lurking... If I can't take to the time to post something sensible, I usually just read.

American in Japan says

I am still here... lurking... If I can't take to the time to post something sensible, I usually just read.

I was told that it's better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt - but that doesn't stop me!!!

Ellie's never been out of the country at all.

Has anyone lived in the Netherlands?

Worked in Germany, England, and Kalifornia.

I've lived in California, which qualifies as another country.

wthrfrk80 says

I've lived in California, which qualifies as another country.

Indeed, if you're not American.

ethry says

This has been a long thread but when I read this post, the first country that came to my mind is Paris. Maybe I just like the laid-back culture. Also, it depends on what you are looking for.

Paris is a city. :-D And the French are far from laid-back.

If you want laid-back in France go to Brittany or the Southern Provence regions...not Paris.

I currently live in the Stuttgart, Germany are. I have lived here for nearly ten years and love it. The Germans can be gruff but once you get to know a little of the language there is no problem. Cost of living is a bit higher here compared to parts of the US. Other great places are Padua, Italy...

G'Day, After all the governments just giving $$ to banks, I lost the plot and buggered off to the UAE where I pay NO tax. I've been here since 2009. Everyone has different situations, but I my take-home pay (what I get in my back pocket) quadrupled. Only draw back is the 140 degf temperatures I have to endure right now, but the winters are grand.

I was in the UAE in 2010. They are really building up their infrastructure...petrol profits.

Is anyone living in Thailand?