patrick.net

CaptainDB you can get great odds on Romney. Way better than even money.

So if you really believe he will win you should put your money where your mouth is.

Obama's point is well taken.

But the way he phrased it is a direct insult to everyone who's ever taken the risks involved in starting up a successful business.

So the bigger question is, why did he insult small business owners? He's intelligent enough to know exactly what he was saying.

One likely answer: To demean them in the eyes of the public, making it easier to garner support to increase the tax burden on them.

"likely" due to his well established proclivity to raising taxes.

bdrasin says

How anyone can say this is an insult to anyone is totally beyond me

xrpb11a says

Obama's point is well taken.

But the way he phrased it is a direct insult to everyone who's ever taken the risks involved in starting up a successful business.

So the bigger question is, why did he insult small business owners? He's intelligent enough to know exactly what he was saying.

You find it insulting when someone says: "The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together"? I think that's either great arrogance on your part, or a sincere desire to find something to be offended about.

HRHMedia says

How is Obama the worst president?

He's just the worst one in a long time, FDR was worse.

So what part of "Obama's point is well taken" is it that you don't understand?

bdrasin says

xrpb11a says

Obama's point is well taken.

But the way he phrased it is a direct insult to everyone who's ever taken the risks involved in starting up a successful business.

So the bigger question is, why did he insult small business owners? He's intelligent enough to know exactly what he was saying.

You find it insulting when someone says: "The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together"? I think that's either great arrogance on your part, or a sincere desire to find something to be offended about.

No. I find it insulting to insert a Business Owner Demeaning sentence in the middle of a normal stump speech, just to jazz up his base.

bdrasin says

You find it insulting when someone says: "The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together"?

What OBama said made sense, in fact it's something everyone knows roto be true, but there are a lot of extremely stupid people on the right that are more than willing to gobble up the most ridiculous ways that NewsCorp spins things.

xrpb11a says

OB could have phrased it differently. But he did not. Why?

Because in he sees the world through the eyes of an elite university professor...
Thats his world.. certainly not from the view point of the small, med or large business owner.

xrpb11a says

When I started my business

You like many business owners owe the government your fortunes...

You've missed the boat completely.
OB said that directly to me, without any other media outlet's help.

marcus says

What OBama said made sense, in fact it's something everyone knows roto be true, but there are a lot of extremely stupid people on the right that are more than willing to gobble up the most ridiculous ways that NewsCorp spins things.

don't worry. It looks like the government is coming to collect....

thomaswong.1986 says

xrpb11a says

When I started my business

You like many business owners owe the government your fortunes...

I'm not sure where you found this poll, but from what I''ve seen Obama is well ahead of Romney in the polls - even from the highly respected Fox "News"

Pollster Dates Pop. Obama Romney Undecided Margin
Rasmussen 7/17 - 7/19 1,500 LV 47 46 - Obama +1
Gallup 7/13 - 7/19 3,000 RV 48 44 - Obama +4
FOX 7/15 - 7/17 901 RV 45 41 11 Obama +4
Rasmussen 7/14 - 7/16 1,500 LV 44 47 - Romney +3
YouGov/Economist 7/14 - 7/16 742 RV 47 44 5 Obama +3
CBS/Times 7/11 - 7/16 942 RV 46 47 5 Romney +1
DailyKos/SEIU/PPP (D) 7/12 - 7/15 1,000 RV 48 46 7 Obama +2
Rasmussen 7/11 - 7/13 1,500 LV 46 45 - Obama +1
NPR 7/9 - 7/12 1,000 LV 47 45 5 Obama +2
Gallup 7/6 - 7/12 3,000 RV 46 46 - -

The funny thing is, that even if Obama slipped up in the way he said what he was saying, even the critics know full well what he meant.

It's getting to the issue of the taxes paid by high income people. Taxes should be more progressive for a number of reasons, including the fact that the government, the infrastructure, the law (actually the country itself) and market environment are all interconnected, and yes they help make success possible. No true conservative questions this. And yet while they get it, they love to jump on one out of context sentence that was basically a slip.

It's basically: "Let's see, I get his message, but I'm pretty sure I can jump on the way he said it and we can misconstrue and have a good ole time."

You know the point he was trying to make. "Every man for himself" is not what made this country great. And some big important decisions are going to have to be made soon, about spending priorities and taxation.

If you want you can argue that the real reason for our governments debts is greedy unions and out of control government workers.

But it also might have a little to do with:

1) Costly tax cuts that were given mostly to high incomes
2) Off book wars, that cost trillions
3) GDP and revenues being lower than expected, due to a financial crisis that was brought about largely by financial markets and lending practices run amok

xrpb11a says

Oh? Who did Pierre Omidyar cooperate with when he started Auction Web, the precursor to Ebay, as a sole proprietor?

The enterprise value of what became ebay was built on the legal system as provided by the State, and also of course the internet itself, which was also initially created by the State, partially thanks to Al Gore, who took the initiative in its creation, before being handed off to private entities to commercialize.

marcus says

GDP and revenues being lower than expected, due to a financial crisis that was brought about largely by financial markets and lending practices run amok

this is . . . incorrect. It's not the crisis or the "bad lending" that is killing "growth", it's the fact that the growth of the Bush years was predicated on the bad lending in the first place.

This lending was essentially "stimulus" spending, $7T mainlined right into the middle class. When it failed, so went the Bush Economy, such as it was.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=8WZ

blue line is year-on-year borrowing, red line is YOY job growth.

Helloeeze says

am not claiming Obama is against business. I am saying he doesn't understand what it takes to start a business and have employees, etc, or he wouldn't make statements that glibly toss off the hard work and personal sacrifice that business owners go through.

that's just right-wing bullshit and not what Obama in his speech said at all.

xrpb11a says

Taken in context with the whole paragraph, it is understood that a business is a cooperative effort between labor and management.

Not at all. Here's the offending paragraph:

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business–you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

He's talking about all that's come before and exists today. The schools, the teachers, the legal system, the general social capital of honest dealing and lack of graft, and the actual infrastructure.

The "building" is referred to the above, not the business itself.

Anybody reading it "that" to refer to the business is being intentionally dense, or a conservative, but I repeat myself.

It's precisely what he said. you know it. I know it.
Delurking says

that's just right-wing bullshit and not what Obama in his speech said at all.

the right and left wing put out a lot of bullshit...
but the comment below holds water.
Obama never created and ran a business. Like most other things in life, unless you have gone through the process, it is close to impossible to accurately describe and appreciate the experience.

That is why he tossed out the offending sentence, without a second thought.

Delurking says

Helloeeze says

am not claiming Obama is against business. I am saying he doesn't understand what it takes to start a business and have employees, etc, or he wouldn't make statements that glibly toss off the hard work and personal sacrifice that business owners go through.

that's just right-wing bullshit and not what Obama in his speech said at all.

I have no problem going back to paying 39%, or even a little more.
As long as spending is harnessed, which it has not been up to this point.

marcus says

It's getting to the issue of the taxes paid by high income people.

xrpb11a says

I have no problem going back to paying 39%, or even a little more.
As long as spending is harnessed, which it has not been up to this point.

It's astounding how this sentiment is not echoed by Liberals.
This is what they are saying...
"Hey let's tax, let's tax, let's tax!"

"Well what are the plans with that revenue?"

"Tax the rich!"

Delurking says

He's talking about all that's come before and exists today. The schools, the teachers, the legal system, the general social capital of honest dealing and lack of graft, and the actual infrastructure.

Of course that is correct but what I think Obama may not completely understand is the level of identification people have with their businesses and their "story". Obama is looking at the overall picture but the individual is looking at his/her life and how much time, energy and money they have put in to the creation and running of their business. Very few businesses are 9 to 5 jobs, there is no guaranteed salary you can get rich or go bankrupt or as is often the case just make the same living as a wage slave but with a lot more work and stress. So I think the fail in his words is not acknowledging the extra effort that is a part of business creation and management. On the other hand the republicans by using the term job creator have elevated business people to a God like status which is absurd. As I have said in other posts job creation is a side effect of being in a for profit business, not its goal.

rdm says

On the other hand the republicans by using the term job creator have elevated business people to a God like status which is absurd.

You sound like one of those clowns that have no respect for hard work, or the desire let alone the wherewithal to work and save to realize your own dreams as a business owner.

But I bet you feel entitled to an executive level salary.

Interesting perspective....got any examples?

rdm says

On the other hand the republicans by using the term job creator have elevated business people to a God like status

CaptainShuddup says

You sound like one of those clowns that have no respect for hard work, or the desire let alone the wherewithal to work and save to realize your own dreams as a business owner.

You have no clue about me though in other threads I have mentioned I started, owned and operated a business for 23 years 1981 through 2004, hired hundreds of people. Went from nothing to doing millions of dollars a year in business. Worked far more hours than my employees who were unionized and well paid with good benefits. Damn right I was entitled to an "executive" level salary, though I never took one, most profits were retained in the business. I hired lots of people but my motive was to make money not create jobs. So I don't buy this Hallelujah choir that ques up when the sacred words "job creators" are used

And you Capt. Schmutz what's your story? What life experience gives you your perspective, which seems rather bitter, no?

Sorry. Precedent has been set.
Post 10 years of your corporate tax returns, or be pegged as a MasterBullShitter...

rdm says

You have no clue about me though in other threads I have mentioned I started, owned and operated a business for 23 years 1981 through 2004, hired hundreds of people. Went from nothing to doing millions of dollars a year in business.

xrpb11a says

Sorry. Precedent has been set.
Post 10 years of your corporate tax returns, or be pegged as a MasterBullShitter...

rdm says

Fortunately, unlike Mitt I don't require your vote for the most powerful position in the world.

xrpb11a says

Interesting perspective....got any examples?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creator_deity

"Job Creator" is weapons-grade bullshit

xrpb11a says

Taxpayers dollars did not create the internet, Hard working people created income by offering services, that allowed them to pay taxes to the government....

Wrong. Noncommercial Government research accelerated the development of the internet. Government money created it and it would not have existed when Omidyar was doing his work.

Another self-proclaimed successful business owner without one iota of proof...

Welcome! Glad to have you on board!

rdm says

xrpb11a says

Sorry. Precedent has been set.

Post 10 years of your corporate tax returns, or be pegged as a MasterBullShitter...

rdm says

Fortunately, unlike Mitt I don't require your vote for the most powerful position in the world.

From your link:
A creator deity, (often called the Creator), is a deity responsible for the creation of the world

So in what universe does the "creator of the world" equate to a "job creator"?

or are you on the purple drank again?

Delurking says

xrpb11a says

Interesting perspective....got any examples?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creator_deity

"Job Creator" is weapons-grade bullshit

xrpb11a says

It's precisely what he said. you know it. I know it.

The Bullshit is strong with you.

"that" was referent to all the stuff Obama said before, not the business itself. To read it otherwise is to be a propagandistic ass lying about what Obama said -- no mention of employee labor like you said above, so you are just lying or misinformed.

Similarly, in context Romney did not say "Corporations are people" in the corporate personhood context. In context he was saying corporations are *made of* people, which I agree, though his overall point was still wrong.

>So in what universe does the "creator of the world" equate to a "job creator"?

"Creator" is a loaded term. It's propaganda.

rdm says

And you Capt. Schmutz what's your story? What life experience gives you your perspective, which seems rather bitter, no?

Well I've been Managing a successful Nunya franchise for about 45 years now.

The lack of reading comprehension is strong with you.

I already acknowledged this point way back when..

94 Sun, 22 Jul 2012 at 7:23 pm Share Quote Permalink Like (2) Dislike Edit Delete
the complete sentence in his stump speech is:
"If you've got a business, you didn't build that."

Taken in context with the whole paragraph, it is understood that a business is a cooperative effort between the owner and everyone else involved.

Do you always jump into the middle of conversations without any regard for what has already been posted?

Delurking says

xrpb11a says

It's precisely what he said. you know it. I know it.

The Bullshit is strong with you.

"that" was referent to all the stuff Obama said before, not the business itself.

Most of politics is propaganda.
so what's your point? the reds do it more than the blues??
they are both guilty as charged, at equal levels.

Delurking says

>So in what universe does the "creator of the world" equate to a "job creator"?

"Creator" is a loaded term. It's propaganda.

CaptainShuddup says

rdm says

And you Capt. Schmutz what's your story? What life experience gives you your perspective, which seems rather bitter, no?

Well I've been Managing a successful Nunya franchise for about 45 years now.

Ancient Chinese wisdom: Man with hole in Pocket feel cocky all day

Government money = Taxpayers dollars = sweat from hard working people.

Delurking says

xrpb11a says

Taxpayers dollars did not create the internet, Hard working people created income by offering services, that allowed them to pay taxes to the government....

Wrong. Noncommercial Government research accelerated the development of the internet. Government money created it and it would not have existed when Omidyar was doing his work.

xrpb11a says

so what's your point? the reds do it more than the blues??

No, that you are entirely full of shit about Obama slagging on small business with this. Even this from you:

"Taken in context with the whole paragraph, it is understood that a business is a cooperative effort between the owner and everyone else involved."

is restating the INCORRECT, LYING framing that Obama was saying business owners didn't build their businesses.

The "that" in Obama's "you didn't build that" was referring to local and national private public goods that have facilitated this nation having created so much over the past 200 years.

Here's the context again:

"Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business–you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen."

vs your:

"But the way he phrased it is a direct insult to everyone who's ever taken the risks involved in starting up a successful business."

The only people taking insult at that is people wanting to take insult, and people who are getting their information from the propagandistic right who have dishonestly twisted Obama's very obvious speech here.

"Just look at the media storm he created by not parsing his words"

"I would say the sentence in question was mildly annoying"

"But the way he phrased it is a direct insult to everyone who's ever taken the risks involved in starting up a successful business."

You are either misinformed by your crap propagandistic sources or willfully repeating their lies here. Which is it?

xrpb11a says

If you think I did, show it.

"I am saying he doesn't understand what it takes to start a business and have employees, etc, or he wouldn't make statements that glibly toss off the hard work and personal sacrifice that business owners go through"

Obama made no such statement. In his quote that you objected to, he was clearly talking about the general environment, not any invesment in the business itself:

Here's Obama again:

Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business–you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

That was not about employees or the development of a proprietor's business itself. He was explicitly talking about the 1) educational system, 2) infrastructure, and 3) the internet.

Yet you went off on this statement, after you believed the lies from the usual "lying liars" in rightwing media.

It's really quite pathetic that you're still denying this.