patrick.net

That sucks Tom!
No good deed goes unpunished. As some other agents have told me 'its the wild west' out there in the RE industry and this is only one tiny example.

So sorry to hear that your honesty is being punished. I hope you keep your integrity and continue to give good advice to your clients.

GOOD FIGHT # I.
complained to a county housing agency, Mold collapsing the bathroom ceiling and the Landlord remained unresponsive.
The counselor at the housing agency was a budding attorney, the Landlord a Judge in the same county. My family was evicted and forced to pay the Judge\Landlord $8,000.00 in attorneys fees and points on my driving record mysteriously resurfaced.
GOOD FIGHT # 2.
Filed "Breach of Contract", "Deprivation of Income" lawsuit in contract based employment. Principle was committing fraud, insurance scams etc. etc.
Attorneys advise that defendant makes enough money to hire many more attorneys than plaintiff. Perpetual litigation was not an option for me.
GOOD FIGHT # 3.
complained to "Standards Enforcement" that our employer was systematically shaving almost ten percent of our pay. (overtime pay-thousands of cases in ca.)
That state agency advises "they need people to file complaints, otherwise the state employees sit around and do nothing while employers continue the crime" and they advise "termination would be suspicious after filing a complaint" employment protection is provided. They did nothing to protect my job or pension, in fact midstream advised me to find another job. Gubmint agencies trashed five other employee payroll complaints prior to civil filings where the employer settled for millions of dollars.

Tom Stone sounds Irish.
Irish songs are about sad love affairs and happy wars.
Thank You Tom for the clarity.
Thank You Patrick for providing this window of clarity.

There is something seriously wrong with the Realtor® code of "ethics" when an agent can get fired simply for giving his honest and very humorous opinion.

The NAR says it's "ethical" to publicly say only things which lead to commissions, but it's "unethical" to say anything in public which might prevent a commission.

Why would you want anyone with such bogus "ethics" representing you? I'd much rather have a really honest guy like Tom Stone!

Maybe I will create a "Secret Agent" system where agents can write anonymous reviews of open houses, and if you like their style, you can hire them by the hour for real advice. Should I do it?

How would you know they were "real" agents?

I could validate the agents, checking their real estate license number.

If we're going to destroy some reputations here we're going to need the names of the broker and the agent.

I could validate the agents, checking their real estate license number.

Would that be a liability issue for you Patrick?

pdh says

If we're going to destroy some reputations here

What do you mean? I want to help agents get a reputation for true honesty. Just the opposite of what they have now.

New renter says

Would that be a liability issue for you Patrick?

Good question. Would I incur any liability for connecting a buyer to an agent willing to give honest advice? I'm pretty sure it's just the agent who need to be licensed, not me.

What do you mean? I want to help agents get a reputation for true honesty. Just the opposite of what they have now.

And I want to find out who these two agents were who cost this guy his job, sign them up for porn websites, post libelous reviews of them anonymously and generally make their lives at least slightly more uncomfortable.

Ack! No, please don't do anything like that. Puts you on the wrong side of the law, and doesn't really help.

What would help is getting Tom some customers who would pay him by the hour for his very honest and unbiased real estate advice. Then he wouldn't need their stinkin job.

Is there a role for Patrick.net in helping to connect potential buyers to agents that won't try to rip them off?

Thank you all for the kind words. If anyone needs advice on country properties I would be happy to share what I know free of charge. When I act solely as agent for a buyer, that is spelled out in a contract which is standard. If you wish to have any compensation paid to me come from you, rather than the seller, that is doable as well. It just has to be straightforward. I know a number of agents and brokers who are highly competent and who have integrity, they don't get much press. Will Kent of the wine country group, Pam Bernier of Occidental Realty, Sarah Hylton of Terra Firma Global Partners, David Mark-Raymond of Coldwell Banker, Scott Stevens or Scott Murphy of Leading Edge Properties. That's just off the top of my head. Those who are curious can find comments by me on the defunct "Sonoma Housing Bubble" blog, "Calculated Risk"and a recent "How to" I wrote about a tricky country property for "Bay Area Real Estate Trends" blog. I am competent, I am honest (It's easier) and I do have a sense of humor that sometimes gets me in trouble. Again, thanks for the kind words and do your own homework, there's a lot of money involved (and more) when you buy property.

If you gave an honest assessment and can prove it, you won't get fined.
It would be the deceptive listing agent who would be in trouble.
I would fight fire with fire. Threaten to sue the listing agent for any losses, damages, loss of income and stress. I would say $25,000. He will back off and not take a chance about taking this further.

Raw Truth

pdh says

If we're going to destroy some reputations here

What do you mean? I want to help agents get a reputation for true honesty. Just the opposite of what they have now.

New renter says

Would that be a liability issue for you Patrick?

Good question. Would I incur any liability for connecting a buyer to an agent willing to give honest advice? I'm pretty sure it's just the agent who need to be licensed, not me.

Patrick, I have spent over12 months actively seeking an honest agent. The only thing I have not done is required them to take a polygraph exam and sign an oath to be honest. After 13 months of diligent research I closed on a purchase of a house. I found something interesting about my "honest broker". After I took possession of the house ( that's another story) I was able to locate the seller. She advised me that she was "ordered" by her listing agent to NEVER talk to a buyer. I told her that .."thousands of men and women gave their lives to this country for freedom of speech, don't let some measly con artist Realtor try to scare you away from the truth. YOU have my money. and I have your house what is the problem?" So she told me what her Listing agent told her about us. Liar liar pants on fire...My wife and I were shocked! ALL CONFIDENTIAL information that our "buyers agent" learned about us, he embellished on and told it to the listing agent. Our so-called "buyers agent" needs to burn in hell for his lying. We found that the ONLY reason we could close on the house was that other Realtor - insiders in both selling and buyers offices decided THEY did not want to buy the house. In this case OURS WAS THE ONLY REAL OFFER, even though we were told "higher multiple offers" by our "honest buyers agent". Later our buyers agent called us to congratulate us on the purchase of the house. We told him to go straight to hell...we don't celebrate with LIARS!. I don't believe ANY REALTOR. If you find one, please contact me directly and I'll do my own investigation - vetting process.

Tom Stone says

I reviewed a home in Sebastopol earlier this year that I described as a stage set and further claimed (Accurately) that the photographs of the property were deceptive.

Amazing, sad, and not too surprising of a tale. The thing is this: When I go visit a home, and see that it was misrepresented, I speak up, all the while noting the realtor's name and firm and often times complain to them as well. It does not serve the agent well by being nothing but honest when describing a place. Why? Because when someone shows up and the pictures do not match reality, even the dumbest person then must ask themselves, What else are they lying about? Going forward, I would simply post your comments/complaints anonymously.

Maybe I will create a "Secret Agent" system where agents can write anonymous reviews of open houses, and if you like their style, you can hire them by the hour for real advice. Should I do it?

Yes, good idea.

This comments brings up many other issues. Here is a short list. Can any Realtors out there explain these.

1) In the metrolistmls.com Central Valley listing service, the listing agent can post CONFIDENTIAL agent remarks to buyers agents. The problem with this is that these listings are PUBLICIZED and abstracted everywhere. Why hide and obfuscate "confidential remarks" that most likely refer to PROBLEMS with the property? Unless you are trying to deceive buyers who are NOT Realtors. Most buyers agents WILL NOT disclose these confidential listing agent remarks to qualified buyers until AFTER they have made their first offer...and spend lots of time and money in the process. IT IS DECEPTIVE to do this.

2) Using the C.A.R. purchase agreement forms when making an offer also have a problem. In the California escrow process "using these forms", POWERFUL INFORMATION about the property is disclosed by the seller...all the raw... mean... bad... information is here is disclosed as follows: SELLER PROPERTY QUESTIONNAIRE form SPQ revised 11/11.
ESPECIALLY sub part V, SELLER AWARENESS A and B including repairs non-permitted work, fires, floods, potential legal problems, structural issues, mold, water damage, THREE PAGES OF LEGAL disclosures and disclaimers. Transfer disclosure statement Form TDS, Agent Visual Inspection form AVID, Water heater and Smoke detector form WHSD, Septic, Well, and property monument inspection form SWPI, Buyer and seller advisory form SBSA, Lead based paint and hazards advisory form FLD, Market Conditions advisory from MCA, Buyers inspection advisory form BIA, Carbon Monoxide advisory form CMD, plus many other contracts and notices concerning use of the property, other known hazards in the area, CC&R's.

Note: ALL OF THIS INFORMATION above is KNOWN BY THE SELLER and LISTING AGENT BEFORE the property is listed. WHY ISN'T this IMPORTANT information disclosed INITIALLY BEFORE ANY OFFERS? It is deceptive to KNOW this....and actively market the property WITHOUT GIVING PROPER NOTICE ABOUT THESE DEFECTS...BEFORE a potential buyer "falls in love:" with the property. PLEASE also note ALL OF THIS INFORMATION is made to REALTORS as buyers...Realtors always have a selective advantage with these listings.

Tom, what about these common Realtor tactics:

1) Make your "Highest and best" offer. Legally, this is a COMPOUND request. Highest is many times NOT THE BEST, and agents KNOW this. The "highest offer" accompanied by ten pages of "subect to's" is NOT a "clean offer". Why don't so-called buyers agents disclose this fact?
On this house I bought...I was the "LOWEST and best" offer abd ny "honest" buyers agent warned me to NOT MAKE THE OFFER I MADE...I told him I was his client and I know what is going on here. MY offer was accepted! The "lowest offer".

2) Realtors are required to market their listings, but they differentially market them depending on their commission PROFIT, not the best interests of the seller.

There are many ways they do this including:

1) "pocket listings" where they hide or obfuscate properties. There are many ways they do this.
I have a LONG LIST.

2) Listing agents Refuse to answer emails or telephone calls from Buyers agents. They do this to encourage buyers to only go through them so they don't have to split their commission. One broker told me that it was not legally required to be "polite" by returning telephone calls. I have learned some ways to get around this--I could write a book. Example---on the house I just bought. The house listed at 4 am in the morning...I had only a few hours to conduct Due Diligence BEFORE the listing office opened. I called the listing agent from a blocked number, NO ANSWER. I called the same number using a cell phone listed to BEVERLY HILLS ( you can buy one at Walmart for $20). Answered on the first ring. The listing agent asked me a NON MARKETING question. Important : Do you need to sell your property in Beverly Hills in order to buy this one? As soon as she asked this question I learned three things about her: 1) She had no insider buyers ready or qualified to buy. ( If she had any she would respond "we have multiple high offers I need highest and best"). 2) She wanted to be my "buyers" agent. She did not ask if I was represented...that was clue #1. She asked me if I needed to sell first which has NOTHING
TO do with getting the most money for her seller. Instead she was looking out for her best interest ONLY. #3) from her conversation I could tell she wanted to cut the $%&^ off her seller by selling QUICKLY at any price. How did I know this? Because the house was listed as an ACTIVE listing, that is NOT AN REO and NOT a SHORT. My Due Diligence in the early hours found a NOTICE OF DEFAULT several months ago...and a NOTICE OF AUCTION in FOUR DAYS...day and time already set. I also found a blog by the seller (I Googled the address to get the buyers name). The seller was preparing to walk away from the mortgage beacuse of nasty tactics by the bank. The seller has paid a mortgage payment on this house for over 33 years! The bank got its pound of flesh out of her and now they want it off the books PRONTO. Any asset manager would want this property GONE, but there were no Realtor - insiders to pick this one up leaving a vacuum for me to buy.

This is horrible news and I am sorry for what happened. I can't believe real estate agents are this corrupt...

the only thing you did wrong was post openly with your real name.

seriously---why do you think that employers are spending their time googling up someone's bare-breasted gin-tossing vacation photos? the internet has become yet another tool that can be used against any of us.

if you want to 'stay employed' or 'get employed', you have to play the part of the Man in the Grey Suit at all times. even your political comments to 'friends' on Facebook will be used against you.

--coming from someone who recently released themselves from the slavery of a manager who wanted to know (and change his treatment of me) based on whether i smoked or drank, was married, and a number of other million personal questions which he asked. i wasn't operating machinery and wasn't responsible for anyone's life at this job, except my own, either.

CaffeineAddict says

This is horrible news and I am sorry for what happened. I can't believe real estate agents are this corrupt...

The corruption follows directly from the commission system. Since agents don't get paid unless there is a sale, even the buyer's own broker has a large immediate financial interest in tricking his own client into buying something -- anything, no matter how crappy -- and to get the client to overpay as much as possible.

Bad system!

Would be much better if buyers would just pay for advice by the hour. But buyers generally won't do that, since they prefer to roll a much larger cost into the total price and get bad advice rather than pay a smaller amound up front and get unbiased advice.

I've put an ad in the head of every page to see if I can start to match up buyers with agents who will work by the hour and will promise to keep all the buyer's info completely confidential.

I am genuinely sorry to hear that you won't be posting your advice online, and I'm stunned that you've been silenced for telling the truth.

I've been watching Western Sonoma County for a long time, waiting for prices to reflect the reality of a drastically changed market. Your advice on listings was always interesting to me, and I checked on every piece of property that you said was worth looking at.

My best to you. I hope you find a way to support yourself in a ruthless field. It used to be that we honored people for their integrity...

David Losh says

Your comments may influence another buyer, and that's just not fair.

What?! Of course it's fair! It's always fair to give your honest opinion.

What's not fair is to fire agents who dare to speak up in a public place.

Jeez. The corruption continues, BIG TIME.

jhall says

It used to be that we honored people for their integrity...

Definitely not in real estate. People with integrity get fired.

David Losh says

As far as the corruption goes, that is the fault of the consumer.

No! That's the fault of the NAR and all its members, who do everything they possibly can to profit from the unethical conflict of interest between buyer and agent inherent in the commission system, even though it has ruined the financial lives of millions of families.

Hi,
Your experience reminded me of something that happened when I almost bought a home in Eugene OR.
The home inspector wrote that he recommended a structural engineer to look at the the foundation, and wrote about finding black mold in the garage.

When I spoke with him to understand the issues, and why he wrote what he did, he not only explained the "whys" but also that the broker and realtors were giving him a ton of grief for writing what he did.

I THANKED him profusely and told him he was being my advocate, and he told me that was what he was being paid to do, but added that if the realtors had their way, I would not have gotten his written report, and told me that he probably would not be asked to inspect by most companies again. I could not believe that his honesty would cost him jobs, but when I cancelled the deal, I also got snubbed by the realtor too.

The collusion between brokers/realtors/inspectors and more is really awful/intimidating and just plain horrendous and outrageous.

I applaud your honesty. And while I am not 100% sure, I am likely moving back to Sonoma County. While I am renting for awhile, when I start looking to buy again, I will definitely be in touch.

David Losh says

If an agent were to say glowing things about a property just to attract buyers how fair would that be?

What planet are you from? Agents say glowing things about properties to attract buyers all day, every day. That's what they do. That's their job. They just tell just one side of the story of a property to trap buyers with soul-crushing debt so that the agent can profit from ruining yet another life.

Any agent who tells the truth by including the other side is instantly FIRED because that might make the buyer hesitate about that soul-crushing debt. See evidence above.

David Losh says

The commission is a measely little amount of money

No it isn't, it's huge. 6% of 30 years is 1.8 years of giving your working life away to realtors.

It might be OK if you got honest advice for it, but you don't. Ever. You get only the advice that gets you to buy as much as possible as quickly as possible.

You just don't want to understand the conflict inherent in the commission system. Upton Sinclair has a great quote about that:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it."

David Losh quote:
"Consumers hire agents. The agent may be the greatest, most honest, true blue person on earth, but if they don't know product, land use, economic trends, or negotiation, they are useless. "

So, according to you, any good realtor would have known the economic trends, such as the housing bubble, and would have steered all their clients from buying, since about 2006 right?!?

That would have been FANTASTIC for many homeowners who are underwater or in foreclosure! According to you, most realtors would now be broke/out of business, because they knew the economic trends, such as the dangers of this market, and steered their customers away from buying properties!

I can only imagine how different the comments on this site would be if realtors really advocated on the clients behalf rather than for commissions, which only come with a sale.

Was pre-approved in 2003 and considered buying a place with a friend of mine. We were new to the game (both from overseas) and had an offer in after the realtor suggested that we had to at least offer 30K over asking in order "to be taken seriously" and "not to offend the seller". Overnight I reflected upon this bullshit and we pulled our offer first thing in the morning. I have met one decent realtor (nice "substitute agent" from denmark who actually advised us to continuously underbid by at least 10% if we are not in immediate need to move and own) out of maybe 50 total, have not looked back since and enjoy renting with the family.

David Losh says

if you object to glowing comments, that may well be true, then you should object to negative comments as well.

You still are not listening. I'm objecting to the ONE SIDED nature of what agents tell buyers. How come you can't seem to understand that?

David Losh says

This agent wasn't fired for making negative comments, the agent was fired for not following Multiple Listing rules.

The RULE is that you may not make NEGATIVE COMMENTS. So he was indeed fired for making negative comments. Why isn't honesty part of the rules? You know why: commissions.

David Losh says

Real Estate agents have been tarred with a broad brush.

That's because they are willing participants in an obviously corrupt system. There is a huge conflict of interest inherent in getting paid if and only if your client buys a house, and getting paid more if your client overpays. The overwhelming financial incentive is to give your client bad or one-sided advice, while somehow pretending that you represent their interests.

David Losh says

Oh, and the guy who got fired, the rule is in place so that people don't discourage buyers from looking at property.

But what does that mean? That is a very subjective standard and it seems to any reasonable observer that every tear down is promoted as a cute fixer and every shabby 50's 3/2 ranch is a charming home that needs but a little paint. The PICs are completely worthless. If they cant find a good view they dont take the PIC. Buyers don't have unlimited time and shouldn't be subjected to what is in effect false advertisement. There is a range of reasonable bull shit in promoting a house, and clearly IMO it is nearly always exceeded in making the house seem far more desirable than it in actuality is. It makes the agent seem like a moron promoting something that doesn't match reality and some actually seem to believe their own bull shit.

David Losh says

If some one, any one, has a negative opinion about green carpet, or the slope of the roof, or condition of a property, that may eliminate a buyer from viewing a property.

How is that remotely helpful to a buyer who hasn't seen the house, or is only searching on line?

It is extremely helpful to buyers hear the negative comments when swimming in a sea of sugar-coated crap comments placed by agents with an interest in separating you and your money.

The fact that agents are forced to give up their First Amendment rights when discussing property obviously means that you cannot trust anything an agent says.

If you're afraid of honest public debate about the merits of a house, that proves you are in no way on the side of the buyer. So it is a lie to say that there are "buyers" agents. They don't exist! All agents are against the buyer in the current system. Buyers have no representation at all, and yet are forced to pay for it anyway.

I would prefer that realtors drop the role of "salesperson" and just manage the house-buying process, which is foreign to most of us. Many of us know what we like in a house and don't need to be persuaded to think otherwise.

Create your own threads. No users but me (or the comment author himself) can delete a comment on a thread that you started. And if you also want the ability to delete other people's comments from threads that you create, you can always subscribe to become a Premium Member.

http://patrick.net/subscribe.php

Your choice.

No one is stopping you from saying what you want in your own threads.
But the NAR is stopping agents from giving their honest opinion in any public place!

You just have to read the descriptions from a dozen listings on the MLS to know that the agents are trained to use verbiage to tell the good side of the story in every listing.

I've seen listings where the bathrooms didn't have any cabinets, tubs, or toilets with the tag line "Just needs a little TLC". Really?

can only imagine how different the comments on this site would be if realtors really advocated on the clients behalf rather than for commissions, which only come with a sale.

The site wouldn't even exist,,,,imagine that

It is the way of the world these days in that it is a crime to tell the truth as you will be labeled as a terrorist or adgitator or the tue word whistleblower and that my friend puts a target the size of a bus on your back.I must say if loosing your job is all ,you are lucky, many have been locked up,go missing,die a mysterisis death , or plain shot for unbelievable reasons,it is open season on truth tellers. If you studied the situation that went down in Lybia you would know that Gadaffy had to died because he new the truth of things that the Obama administration did not want the American people as well as the rest of the world to know the truth about what was actually happening. If you knew the truth you won't rise up about further military expantion in the middle east and how it will all come home one day.

The Internet's a new world and a lot of things (and people) are being discussed publicly. We have Yelp and Checkbook reviews, students criticizing professors online, and TripAdvisor rating hotels. It hurts when you're criticized but you try a bit harder as a result.

Maybe the real estate industry should try a bit harder now that they realize what people want to hear.

David Losh says

You say no, an agent shouldn't be allowed to puff a property.

That's not what I said!

I'm objecting to the ONE SIDED nature of what agents tell buyers.

Agents should be free to puff, as long as they are also free to give negative comments. But they are not free to give negative comments. This hurts buyers, and utterly destroys Realtor® credibility.

How can you not see what I mean? It astounds me.

I just want free speech. That's all.

David Losh says

I have no love for the NAR, and am very outspoken against them.

Look out! You'll be next then!

I have wasted an unbelievable amount of time in my life looking at rentals that the landlords swore would match the detailed description of what I was looking for. Are sellers of property rentals stupid, liars, or just naive? Or do they feel that the end justifies the means?

Due to my experience with rentals, I'd much rather place my faith in a trusted agent who can save the countless trips I'd have to make to buy a property 60 miles away.

Some of us are busy with our own work and have no desire to overhaul a property. I DO care about the colors of walls, amount or color of carpeting, and avocado sinks or appliances. It's not a positive or negative, just what IS.

I can never understand why photos of staged houses fail to show the house's walls, floor, ceilings, molding, doorways, etc - just the furniture. Worse, when you actually go to an open house, there's almost no polite way to open cabinets, closets, and windows.

If a realtor wants to sell more product, maybe he/she should show more of the house's structure, with all the warts, so that potential buyers feel they understand the risk/benefit ratio better. Not only has the house-buying process become rather opaque, but the homes you look at seem opaque as well. Safer to rent until you find somebody to work with who is willing to be 100% clear about the product.

For future reference such reviews should be posted under a fake name.