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Congress and the states always imposes regulations over business, yet they are unable, unwilling to run by similar regulations that control accuracy and soundness over government voting...
I don't know whether we need voter IDs or not. I don't have a problem with the idea, if it's done at the right time and in the right way, although I believe the stats that say that voter fraud of the kind that voter ID would prevent is virtually non existent.
But regardless, let's see how honest you are Thomas.
TAke Pennsylvania for example, rolling out their voter card 10 weeks before the election.
Do you think that this is more about preventing fraud or suppressing voting among a certain groups ? It might not be that hard to get the card, but it does make voting a little less convenient than usual for some people.
Which is it more about ? Is the impact on the election just a coincidental side benefit ?
I feel that someone not only has to basically be a dirtbag to think this is okay. They also have to be stupid enough to not admit it to themself.
Here is an example of an anti American dirtbag that doesn't even know he's a dirtbag.
Do you think that this is more about preventing fraud or suppressing voting among a certain groups ? It might not be that hard to get the card, but it does make voting a little less convenient than usual for some people.
It should have been done long ago! It only makes sense proper procedures are carried out.
I care very little which political party benefits, since when properly implementation only benefits the voters and enforces controls over the process as we have similar processes implementation in many other areas in our lives.
It should have been done long ago! It only makes sense proper procedures are carried out.
another problem that needs fixing.. Bogus Tax Refunds...
Billions in Tax Refund Fraud--and How to Stop Most of it
Once again, if you implement sound controls to the process the Govt could save Billions..the same processes mandated by govt on business.
But some call it Racism!
I care very little which political party benefits
So, let me get this straight. You have no opinion as to whether some states are doing this right before the election for a desired impact on the election ?
"see no evil ?" Is that it ?
Are you another one ? That doesn't even have the sense to know what this implies about your integrity (or lack there of)?
Maybe it's that the ends justify the means ? Anything to beat that socialist America hater.
So, let me get this straight. You have no opinion as to whether some states are doing this right before the election for a desired impact on the election ?
"see no evil ?" Is that it ?
there is no excuse for a poorly designed and frankly dated election process. you see this purely as a political if not a racist attempt by me..
Well its not.. it matters you design preventive measures to ensure integrity in a process.
Does your employer hand out a electronic pass IDs to ensure only legitimate employees can enter your place of business or does anyone just waltz in ?
It no wonder that private industry runs better than public which time and time again shows its dreadful regarding Internal Control over its processes causing waste and inefficiency.
The vast majority of people can pay for their ID card.. thats not an issue.
It is an issue though - this is where you are missing the boat. This is a high stakes game with billions of dollars at stake. You don't think that Republicans have done enough research on this to determine that the vast majority of their constituency will not incur hardship with this law? That is, as you say, they already have their ID card (Usually a drivers license).
However, they have also done the research to know that the vast majority of people who will incur hardship with this law support democrats. Perhaps they are working and paid hourly, and the DMV is only open M-F, 8-5. Then it isn't free, is it? They have to take off work, not get paid, to go down to the DMW for anywhere from 1-75 hours. Maybe they don't have a ride to the DMV, and getting there takes 4 different bus trips. Each bus trip costs a dollar or two. Then it isn't free.
The basic idea here is creating barriers to vote and shaping the electorate in a way that favors Republicans.
This is not to say the democrats would be any different if the demographics for this law would mean more voters who are likely to support Republicans would incur hardship.
At least be honest with yourself though. Every independent study done has shown that voter fraud does not influence or change elections. Giving out a "free" card costs the government something. Be it the cost of the materials in the card, manpower, database storage, etc.
So you are advocating increasing government spending for the sole reason of shaping the electorate in such a way that will likely benefit your political views.
Voter Fraud is a Red Herring.
Why should anyone but a taxpayer be allowed to vote?
It is the taxpayer that funds the government. It should be a privilege 'earned'.
Do you think that this is more about preventing fraud or suppressing voting among a certain groups ? It might not be that hard to get the card, but it does make voting a little less convenient than usual for some people.
If it takes you more than 10 weeks to mozy down to your local DMV and have your picture taken, you can't be taken as a serious voter in the first place.
thomaswong.1986 says
I care very little which political party benefits
So, let me get this straight. You have no opinion as to whether some states are doing this right before the election for a desired impact on the election ?
Why should anyone but a taxpayer be allowed to vote?
It is the taxpayer that funds the government. It should be a privilege 'earned'.
Since everyone pays taxes in some form (payroll, sales, income, corporate, property, estate) you aren't really limiting anything here are you?
By this measure illegal aliens could vote. And corporations. Dead people. (or their executors) Children.
Or did you mean something else?
Yes, federal income tax payers.
You might have heard of this then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_taxation_without_representation
Yes, I've heard of it.
If you pay
Federal taxes, you should get to vote in federal elections...
State taxes, you should get to vote in state elections
County taxes, you should get to vote in county elections
Local taxes, you should get to vote in local elections.
In other words, if you pay a tax to an entity, you should get to vote in an election held by that entity.
Yes, federal income tax payers.
You might have heard of this then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_taxation_without_representation
County taxes, you should get to vote in county elections
Local taxes, you should get to vote in local elections.
This would exempt most non-landowners from voting in local and county elections. Is this your intention?
State taxes, you should get to vote in state elections
So illegal aliens and visiting foreigners have the right to vote in state elections.(by way of paying sales taxes) Correct?
Federal taxes, you should get to vote in federal elections...
So this means Federal Income Taxpayers and Federal Payroll taxpayers will vote, right? Plus corporations and executors of estates...
Not if you run a business ( license tax)
Not if you purchase anything that is locally taxable ( sales tax )
xrpb11a says
County taxes, you should get to vote in county elections
Local taxes, you should get to vote in local elections.This would exempt most non-landowners from voting in local and county elections. Is this your intention?
By definition illegal aliens are not citizens, so they do not have the right to be qualified to vote.
The original statement "Why should anyone but a taxpayer be allowed to vote" assumes that the taxpayer is a citizen of the US. I should have made that point to be clear.
xrpb11a says
State taxes, you should get to vote in state elections
So illegal aliens and visiting foreigners have the right to vote in state elections.(by way of paying sales taxes) Correct?
I am referring to "Federal Income Taxpayers", to be clear.
xrpb11a says
Federal taxes, you should get to vote in federal elections...
So this means Federal Income Taxpayers and Federal Payroll taxpayers will vote, right? Plus corporations and executors of estates...
Regarding corporations who pay federal tax, sure give them 1 vote.
I am referring to "Federal Income Taxpayers", to be clear.
xrpb11a says
Federal taxes, you should get to vote in federal elections...
So this means Federal Income Taxpayers and Federal Payroll taxpayers will vote, right? Plus corporations and executors of estates...
I can't believe we're even debating whether or not a person should have to show some kind of ID in order to vote.
It just shows how politicized everything has become.
Us vs. Them! Horay for our side!
Don't we already have these ID's? Aren't they called Drivers Licsenses? Most states require an ID even for people who can't drive, do they not?
I am referring to "Federal Income Taxpayers", to be clear.
Oh I know you are: obvisouly my point is then there is going to be a significantly large portion of federal "citizens" who pay payroll taxes but do not pay income taxes.
Therefore, they are taxed without representation...the American Revolution used this as a rallying cry.
The fact that you chose to include corporation (which are not citizens by definition) but exclude foreign visitors or illegal aliens because they are not by definition citizens shows how weak your argument is. Choose one. Either citizenship is a prerequisite to voting or it is not.
If it is, why are you so hell bent on excluding payroll tax payers who do not pay income taxes from voting in federal elections? Taxes collected from both sources go into the general fund anyway...
If you want to segment it that way - you cannot talk about cutting "entitlements" as a way to shore up budget deficits. Good luck collecting enough Federal Income taxes to pay for the military, interest, etc. without borrowing from the Trust Funds.
If they have paid federal payroll taxes , yet do not pay income tax, is not the federal payroll tax returned via a refund? In essence, they have not paid federal taxes.
xrpb11a says
I am referring to "Federal Income Taxpayers", to be clear.
Oh I know you are: obvisouly my point is then there is going to be a significantly large portion of federal "citizens" who pay payroll taxes but do not pay income taxes.
Therefore, they are taxed without representation...the American Revolution used this as a rallying cry.
yet do not pay income tax, is not the federal payroll tax returned via a refund? In essence, they have not paid federal taxes.
No.
I included corporations because you referenced them in your initial statement. It matters not to me whether they are included or excluded.
I'm fine with expanding the "citizen" requirement to include US corporations...or leave it at 'citizen'.
The fact that you chose to include corporation (which are not citizens by definition) but exclude foreign visitors or illegal aliens because they are not by definition citizens shows how weak your argument is. Choose one. Either citizenship is a prerequisite to voting or it is not.
Don't we already have these ID's? Aren't they called Drivers Licsenses? Most states require an ID even for people who can't drive, do they not?
Actually, no. For example, my 90 year old mom hasn't had a valid driver's license in 5 years. Her passport expired 2 years ago. If she lived in PA she would have to somehow get to the dmv, wait in line (in PA the lines and wait are long in the big cities) in order to vote. Luckily, she lives elsewhere and can show a utility bill with her name on it.
There was/is no proven problem with voter fraud (by dems or republicans) anywhere in the country. So laws like the one in PA are merely making it more of a hassle to vote for the poor (no car) and the elderly.
If the republican controlled state government in PA had proof that voter fraud was happening (they don't) but still wanted to make sure all of those without government issued picture IDs were still able to participate, they would have given this a slower roll out.
Even the republican appointed judged who refused to overturn this acknowledged that several hundred thousand legitimate citizens(mostly democrats) would probably not get to vote. All for a non-existent problem. Sound fair to you?
I am referring to "Federal Income Taxpayers", to be clear.
xrpb11a says
Federal taxes, you should get to vote in federal elections...
So this means Federal Income Taxpayers and Federal Payroll taxpayers will vote, right? Plus corporations and executors of estates...
Wait, so you are saying that someone pays only payroll taxes to the Federal government gets no vote in Federal elections?
No.
I am referring to "Federal Income Tax".
I am not referring to "Payroll Tax".
Wait, so you are saying that someone pays only payroll taxes to the Federal government gets no vote in Federal elections?
I am saying: If you pay federal income tax, you get to vote in a federal election.
I am referring to "Federal Income Taxpayers", to be clear.
xrpb11a says
Federal taxes, you should get to vote in federal elections...
So this means Federal Income Taxpayers and Federal Payroll taxpayers will vote, right? Plus corporations and executors of estates...
Wait, so you are saying that someone pays only payroll taxes to the Federal government gets no vote in Federal elections?
I am saying: If you pay federal income tax, you get to vote in a federal election.
So I guess Romney won't be voting.
It's all irrelevant anyway. With the onset of electronic voting, the software engineers will be deciding our elections from here on out...
Who else is capable of deciphering binary code to determine if 'corruption' is embedded..
If you believe Uncle Harry....
I am saying: If you pay federal income tax, you get to vote in a federal election.
So I guess Romney won't be voting.
Romney paid over 3 mil in fed tax in 2010, so he would be eligible to vote in 2010-2011, or however the logistics work out for that approach.
I am saying: If you pay federal income tax, you get to vote in a federal election.
So I guess Romney won't be voting.
If you believe Uncle Harry....
I am saying: If you pay federal income tax, you get to vote in a federal election.
So I guess Romney won't be voting.
Reid vs Romney: A Mormon catfight!
How so?
Like this:
Single, no deductions, 1 exemption
$7.86 hr, 35 hrs/wk, 40 wks/yr = $11,000 gross income
Standard deduction =-$5800
Personal Exemption = -$3700
Taxable Income = $1500, taxes owed(10%) = $150
Earned Income Tax Credit = -$202.
Total Federal Income Tax = -$52.
Payroll Taxes, employee portion = $11,000 * (.042+.0145) = $621.50
Net Taxes, Employee portion, $569.50.
Payroll Taxes, Employer portion = $11,000 * (.062+.0145) = $841.50.
Total net taxes paid to Federal Govt. = $1411, 12.8% of income, slightly less than % Mitt Romney paid.
QED.
No.
I am referring to "Federal Income Tax".
I am not referring to "Payroll Tax".
Wait, so you are saying that someone pays only payroll taxes to the Federal government gets no vote in Federal elections?
At the state and local level you seem to let just about any kind of tax allow for voting. Why the inconsistency with federal taxes?
It seems like you are arguing, not that to get the vote one must pay taxes, but to get the vote one must pay a tax selected by you as "approved" to allow the vote.
What if a federal sales tax was enacted? Would that go on the list of taxes that one must pay, but still not get to vote?
My intention is that: If you pay into the system at a certain level, you get to vote at that level.
I should have worded it that way in the beginning.
xrpb11a says
No.
I am referring to "Federal Income Tax".
I am not referring to "Payroll Tax".
leoj707 says
Wait, so you are saying that someone pays only payroll taxes to the Federal government gets no vote in Federal elections?
At the state and local level you seem to let just about any kind of tax allow for voting. Why the inconsistency with federal taxes?
It seems like you are arguing, not that to get the vote one must pay taxes, but to get the vote one must pay a tax selected by you as "approved" to allow the vote.
What if a federal sales tax was enacted? Would that go on the list of taxes that one must pay, but still not get to vote?
You guys would complain if ICE agents were stationed at the voting polls. You would say it disenfranchised voters so they didn't turn out.
My intention is that: If you pay into the system at a certain level, you get to vote at that level.
I should have worded it that way in the beginning.
So we are back to the beginning: You aren't going to except anyone from voting with this rule. Nearly everyone pays taxes at some level.
So we are back to the beginning: You aren't going to except anyone from voting with this rule. Nearly everyone pays taxes at some level.
Yes, and even if the Ryan plan passes Romney -- rather than pay zero -- could voluntarily pay $1 in income tax.
Anyone, could file and pay just $1, or 1¢ for that matter.
Yes, and even if the Ryan plan passes Romney -- rather than pay zero -- could voluntarily pay $1 in income tax.
If the Ryan plan passes Romney will at least have to pay tax on his Presidential Salary.
You guys would complain if ICE agents were stationed at the voting polls. You would say it disenfranchised voters so they didn't turn out.
You're damn right I'd complain. It would be a total waste money, since there is no illegal immigrant voting problem.
I am saying: If you pay federal income tax, you get to vote in a federal election.
What the hell is special about income tax as opposed to any other form of money going to the federal government? That's just bullshit.
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http://truth-out.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=2319:new-court-filing-reveals-how-the-2004-ohio-presidential-election-was-hacked
If the shoe were on the other foot, I wonder whether Fox news would run with this story?
I had a was watching the election "market" IEM and in the afternoon (ca time) andKerry's chances of winning were over 90% based the money and based on Ohio exit polls. But then...
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