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tatupu70
2012 Sep 17, 5:15am
How can someone not have a picture ID? Everyone I know had one since they were 16 years old, probably even earlier.
No offense, but your experience with your circle of friends is not really relevent here. Voting is a fundamental right in the US. All efforts should be made to ensure everyone is able to exercise that right.
freak80
2012 Sep 17, 5:19am
Voting is a fundamental right in the US. All efforts should be made to ensure everyone is able to exercise that right.
Agree, but we need to protect against fraud too. Heck, I have to present my ID when checking into a hotel. It's good to make sure that a person is who they say they are, no?
I agree that any election law changes should be made at least a year before an actual election. Changing said laws right before an election *is* shenanigans, I agree.
In California if someone does not drive, they can still get aCalifornia ID. I don't see why this issue is so controversial. It seems logical and reasonable to be able to verify someone's identity in certain situations, voting being one of them. When someone travels outside the country, you have to have a U.S. passport with you to show to foreign officials upon entry and to show to U.S. officials upon return. No one complains that this is unjust or inconvenient. Personally, I think that everyone should be required to have a valid form of picture ID regardless of voting requirements. If someone does not make enough money to afford the $25 fee that it would cost or whatever the amount is in each state, perhaps there can be some legislation for eligibility for a reduced rate or outright waiver of charges.
marcus
2012 Sep 17, 7:05am
I am telling you it is possible for a single person to cast multiple illegal votes in one day.
It may be possible, but it would be very difficult.
What is known by common sense as well as by research is that it basically does not happen.
Why are they instituting this weeks before the election ?
Is it because of a real concern ?
OR is it because too many republicans are scumbags who would do anything to win ?
Haha, the "party of family values" my ass. More like the party of assholes who feel so entitled to political power that they are willing to cheat to get it.
CL
2012 Sep 17, 8:04am
If the GOP were sincere, wouldn't they also attempt to make photo ID free and easy to get in the interest of every getting their franchise?
I don't know of such a movement. That would make it apparent that they are trying to discourage full participation, not enforce the rules.
Vicente
2012 Sep 17, 8:12am
If the GOP were sincere, wouldn't they also attempt to make photo ID free and easy to get in the interest of every getting their franchise?
I don't know of such a movement. That would make it apparent that they are trying to discourage full participation, not enforce the rules.
I don't think you understand the mindset a bit. It's real simple. As a former GOP voter, my thinking would have gone "I want to make sure only REAL AMERICANS can vote, and we have to start by any means to chip away at this very SERIOUS and WIDESPREAD voter fraud problem by disallowing illegals." And if any citizens who are ....shiftless.... were swept up in the scoop along with the wetbacks well fine. The "illegals" are representative of the American underclass that GOP voters hate. Brown people are all the same.... even the trailer trash white folks might as well be brown.....
CL
2012 Sep 17, 9:43am
Brown people are all the same.... even the trailer trash white folks might as well be brown.....
I agree. Certainly they have their demographic studies that show that these voting citizens are less likely to support GOP policy objectives. It's safe to assume that they are therefore attempting to shrink the franchise, not to prevent fraud.
freak80
2012 Sep 18, 1:16am
I agree that any requirement for photo ID must come with a program to get it to those who lack it. And it must be "free" i.e. paid by taxes. And it's obviously far too late for this election cycle. Two years should be plenty of time, however.
I can't even get back into my "native" country w/o a photo ID, (i.e. a passport) if I travel abroad. Requiring ID to vote is pretty mild.
The GOP has made up an issue, to disenfranchise elderly and young voters, period.
The elderly tend to vote for the GOP on average, no? Young people like to drive and get their DLs when they're 16-17. They can't vote until they're 18. Even if you aren't legal to drive, states usually issue generic non-driver photo IDs, don't they?
They are against a fundamental american right based on the flimsiest of pretexts, and they don't deserve to exist as a political party any more for this and a host of other reasons.
That's just blind partisanship.
MisdemeanorRebel
2012 Sep 18, 1:31am
I don't see how people get by without a Photo ID. Even "marginalized" people.
You need a Photo ID to cash most checks, pick up mail or packages from USPS or UPS, use a check to pay for groceries (which many elderly folks, especially poorer ones, still do), take a trip on a plane (and, I believe, AMTRAK), etc. etc.
A Photo ID for voting is just fine, but if Photo IDs are required, they should be free.
The Democrats would be unbeatable if they were to adopt a few populist stances. Not every populist idea is stupid or dangerous, conversely, not every elitist idea is brilliant and helpful to the general welfare.
You know, once in a while, Democrats might like to advance a cause that poor, working men champion. Like making sure we're not deluged with cheap day laborers who drive down the wages for manual labor. Stop illegal immigration, and wages for landscaping, maids, and nannies would skyrocket.
One of the best indicators of the health of a country's economy is how expensive domestic servants are. The more expensive, the better.
leo707
2012 Oct 23, 3:10am
And if we do have solid evidence that voter fraud exists
The problem is that we don't have solid evidence. When investigated all the things you mentioned have been found to not exist.
For example ACORN was found to have not have committed any voter fraud.
Unions strong-arming the minions to vote the "D" happening all the time to this day.
Informational chart is not exactly "strongarming." What the heck are u talking about?
verageBear says
And if we do have solid evidence that voter fraud exists
The problem is that we don't have solid evidence. When investigated all the things you mentioned have been found to not exist.
For example ACORN was found to have not have committed any voter fraud.
For example ... Acorn worker WAS convicted of voter fraud.
Ex-ACORN worker: 'I paid the price' for voter registration fraud
JOHN MCCAIN
October 22, 2008|By Chris Lawrence CNN "American Morning"
Clifton Mitchell filled out voter cards using fake birthdays, Social Security numbers and baby-name books.
Clifton Mitchell helped register nearly 2,000 voters for the community group ACORN. But not one of them actually existed.
"I regret it. I paid the price for it," he said.
Mitchell was convicted last year and spent nearly three months in prison. He's one of the few ACORN workers convicted of voter registration fraud.
Today, he lives with his wife and two boys, ages 3 and 1, in a small apartment in suburban Seattle, Washington. Mitchell said he scammed the system because, "I needed money; I had to support my family and I was new to the area. It was the only job I had."
ACORN worker sentenced to 10 months for election fraud
VOTER REGISTRATION
November 18, 2010|By the CNN Wire Staff
An ACORN worker who submitted multiple voter registration applications for the same individuals before the 2008 election was sentenced Thursday to 10 months in prison, Wisconsin's attorney general said.
The worker, Kevin Clancy, also admitted that he and other ACORN workers registered each other to vote multiple times in order to meet voter registration quotas imposed by the community organizing organization, said Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen.
Clancy pleaded guilty to one count of falsely procuring voter registration as party to a crime, Van Hollen said. The election worker faced more than 3 years in prison and a $10,000 fine, Van Hollen said in a news release from Milwaukee.
Court Temporarily Restores Ban on ACORN Funding
Submitted by Carl Horowitz on Sun, 04/25/2010 - 23:45
http://nlpc.org/stories/2010/04/25/circuit-court-temporarily-restores-ban-acorn-funding
On Wednesday, April 21, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit temporarily reinstated a congressional ban on further public funding of the scandal-ridden group. The three-judge panel in Manhattan effectively overturned a lower court order barring enforcement of the cutoff, concluding that full arguments must be heard first. And they will be this summer.
National Legal and Policy Center on many occasions has skewered ACORN and its hundreds of state and local chapters for internal mismanagement and flagrant lawbreaking in the service of its professed higher idealism. Formed in 1970, ACORN members had been accused or convicted of embezzlement, tax evasion, voter registration fraud and other offenses.
Voter-fraud task force raids office backing Obama
A Nevada voter-fraud task force Tuesday raided the state headquarters of a Democrat-allied organization that works to get low-income people to vote, setting off a skirmish over efforts to expand the electorate on behalf of Sen. Barack Obama.
Authorities searched the Las Vegas office of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, which is accused of submitting multiple voter registrations with duplicate and false names, including names of former Dallas Cowboys players.
Bob Walsh, a spokesman for Nevada Secretary of State Ross Miller, a Democrat, whose office leads the task force, stressed that ACORN was not charged with a crime but served with a search warrant as part of an ongoing investigation.
“We went in and seized computer equipment and documents,†he said.
18 Former ACORN Workers Have Been Convicted or Admitted Guilt in Election Fraud
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/11/26/acorn-workers-convicted-admitted-guilt-election-fraud/
Former workers across the country already are being punished for their criminal activities.
In Miami, seven former ACORN voter registration canvassers were convicted of "false swearing-in an election," and sentenced to probation and community service and banned from participating in future political campaigns, according to court documents.
In Pennsylvania, six of seven former ACORN workers who were charged in an investigation were convicted of unsworn falsification and interference with election officials. Four have reached a plea agreement on reduced charges and will serve two years of probation. Cases against two others who entered pleas to reduced charges are pending.
Charges against the seventh, Eric Jordan, are not being prosecuted because Jordan has pleaded guilty to much more serious charges, including aggravated assault, resisting arrest and carrying firearms without a license.
In Milwaukee, three former ACORN workers have been convicted of election fraud.
Last week, Kevin Clancy was sentenced to 10 months in prison for his role in submitting falsified voter registration forms before the 2008 election. Clancy will start his sentence once he finishes another sentence he is currently serving for armed robbery.
Clancy's co-worker, Maria Miles, who pleaded guilty to election fraud in August, will be sentenced on Dec. 6.
In September, Frank Walton pleaded guilty to submitting 54 fake voter registrations during the 2008 presidential campaign. He faces up to 42 months in prison and a $10,000 fine when he's sentenced Dec. 6.
In Washington state, Kendra Lynn Thill was convicted in March of voter registration fraud in the 2006 midterm election.
In Nevada, a former ACORN supervisor pleaded the equivalent of a no-contest in a case alleging that canvassers were illegally paid to register voters during the 2008 campaign. But while Amy Busefink's plea acknowledges the state had evidence for a conviction at trial, her lawyer said she still plans to challenge the constitutionality of the state law prohibiting paying canvassers based on the number of voter registration forms they turn in.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/11/26/acorn-workers-convicted-
marcus
2012 Oct 23, 1:46pm
Voter-fraud task force raids office backing Obama
Are you too lazy ? Or is there some other reason that you don't even know what this is about ?
We're talking about low wage workers who were payed very small amounts to register voters. They registered some fake names because they got payed according to the number of people they registered.
It's bad, criminal in a misdemeanor kind of a way (more serious actually - because it involved elections) but it doesn't have anything to do with anyone trying to rig elections. It was about small small time people cheating on their job which happened to registering voters.
In Nevada it's illegal to have incentives tied to number of voters registered, so in that case I don't think it was only about workers cheating but rather what Acorn did that was technically cheating. But still, it was hardly major voter fraud. But breaking the state law, yes. And in some cases making up names of voters registered (for pay). Nothing to do with rigging elections as Fox woulld like it's retarded audience to think.
I'm sure you still don't get it, but that's okay.
If you are curious, here's the story (or one of them) without the right wing spin.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/us/05acorn.html?_r=0
Mr. Miller investigated Acorn at the behest of the Clark County registrar of voters, Larry Lomax, who noted a high number of forms turned in featuring the names of famous football players and cartoon characters.
“This is not a case of voter fraud, it’s a case of voter registration fraud,†Mr. Miller said. “I’m very confident that none of these fraudulent voter forms found their way into the voter registration rolls or to cast votes.â€
But still, it was hardly major voter fraud.
does anyone here want to claim.... no Acorn member was convicted of voter fraud ?
you can read from Fox news or CNN.
marcus
2012 Oct 23, 2:25pm
DO you want to claim that you understand what they did exactly and what potential impact it had on elections ?
(that is other than the actual impact of registering democratic voters (the evil bastards)).
Thomas, what ever you do, don't read any stories on this from legitimate sources. You might learn exactly what crime was committed and what crime wasn't.
We are talking voter registration fraud. Basically extremely small time cheating.
IT was wrong (at the level of individual small time cheaters). But luckily (or coincidentally) it allowed them to shut down an organization that was registering a lot of democratic voters (ie voters in poor neighborhoods).
I know, I know. You aren't going to get it. You can't get it. I do feel sorry for you.
Yes, Virginia, There Really Is Voter Fraud
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/286557/yes-virginia-there-really-voter-fraud-hans-von-spakovsky
Eric Shawn at FOX News reports that two Troy city officials, the city clerk and a councilman, along with two Democratic political operatives, have pled guilty to forging absentee-ballot signatures and casting fraudulent ballots in the 2009 Working Families Party primary. The WFP is the political party associated with ACORN.
One of the citizens whose votes were stolen was stunned at what happened. She said that she was “sure this goes on a lot in politics, but it’s very rare that they do get caught.†This voter was right on the money with that observation — fraud is so easy to commit in our election system that it is rare that fraudsters get caught and even rarer that they get prosecuted.
As for the constant liberal claims that voter fraud does not occur, one of the Democratic operatives who pled guilty, Anthony DeFiglio, told New York State police investigators “that faking absentee ballots was a commonplace and accepted practice in political circles, all intended to swing an election.†And whose votes do they steal? DeFiglio was very plain about that: “The people who are targeted live in low-income housing, and there is a sense that they are a lot less likely to ask any questions.â€
That is exactly what former Alabama congressman Artur Davis said recently when he admitted that he was wrong to oppose voter-ID requirements. Davis says the “most aggressive†voter suppression “is the wholesale manufacture of ballots, at the polls and absentee, in parts of the Black Belt†of Alabama, which is an area of very poor black communities. These are the very areas where the NAACP claims voter fraud does not happen. The NAACP opposes all reasonable measures to safeguard the voting process for its own constituents, even going to the extent of defending vote stealers, as the NAACP did in Greene County, Ala., in the mid-1990s. Small wonder one of its local officials was recently sentenced to five years in prison for voter fraud in Tunica County, Mississippi.
Voter Fraud Is a Proven Election Manipulation Tactic
The Supreme Court answered this question in 2008 when it upheld Indiana's voter ID law. "Flagrant examples of such fraud … have been documented throughout this Nation's history by respected historians and journalists," the court said, "[and] not only is the risk of voter fraud real but that it could affect the outcome of a close election." But ask voters in Troy, N.Y., Lincoln County, W.Va., and Florida whether voter fraud is a real problem.
Four local officials and party activists were convicted in 2011 of voter fraud in Troy for forging enough absentee ballots to "likely have tipped the city council and county elections" in 2009. Two veteran Democratic political operatives said voter fraud is an accepted way of winning elections. One of them who pled guilty, Anthony DeFiglio, told police that such fraud was a "normal political tactic."
marcus
2012 Oct 23, 2:33pm
Changing the subject I see, since the whole acorn thing didn't pan out ?
Four local officials and party activists were convicted in 2011 of voter fraud in Troy for forging enough absentee ballots to
Was that something that voter ID laws would have prevented ?
What is it ? Are you now arguing that voter ID laws instituted weeks before an election aren't about voter suppression ?
I know it's not becasue you're embarrassed by the behavior of republicans.
Changing the subject I see, since the whole acorn thing didn't pan out ?
where is Acorn today ? Gone! all due to their culture of corruption.
Was that something that voter ID laws would have prevented ?
that should be obvious "the bigger picture" what the benefits of ID laws for its citizens would provide
.... real documented citizens given proper access to voting, fast tax refunds, proper distribution of the SS benefits and medicare not to mention access to other benefits when needed. Certainly we would have saved $ 3.4B fraudulent tax refunds and $12B in false Medicare claims. That kind of money could better serve the poor who really need it. All you need is an Citizen ID system. We have the means and it wouldnt cost the govt a dime!
It all makes sense... if the private sector has controls which work, it certainly wouldnt pain the government to adopt equal measures to ensure proper govt operations.
It fucking petrifies the Left that American business can do it cheaper and more efficiently.
Yes, American Industry did that ! That is why the Left is so afraid of Romney....
voter suppression
no.. its just good business and best practices in operations....
The Supreme Court has upheld such laws, ruling in 2008 that "the inconvenience of making a trip to the DMV, gather the required documents, and posing for a photograph surely does not qualify as a substantial burden on the right to vote, or even represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting."
Justices Scalia, Thomas, and Alito concurred with the plurality opinion, and noted "The burden of acquiring, possessing, and showing a free photo identification is simply not severe, because it does not 'even represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting.'"
Recent studies have shown little to no evidence that voter integrity efforts hurt minorities. In fact, new photo ID laws in Georgia, Indiana and Mississippi resulted in higher black voter turnout in subsequent elections.
the inconvenience of making a trip to the DMV, gather the required documents, and posing for a photograph surely does not qualify as a substantial burden on the right to vote, or even represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting
Nonsense. This is why reasonable people question last minute proposals of ID laws. In Los Angeles, you have to schedule an appointment over the phone 3-4 weeks ahead just to get in a 4 hour line at the DMV, usually requiring you to take a day off from work.
It's instructive that these voter ID laws never get time on the floor until September/October every election year.
Justices Scalia, Thomas, and Alito concurred
Laws have been repealed. Prohibition was overturned. Judges can be jesters.
Laws have been repealed. Prohibition was overturned. Judges can be jesters.
And many stay on the books for a long long time ... because they make sense.
In Los Angeles, you have to schedule an appointment over the phone 3-4 weeks ahead just to get in a 4 hour line at the DMV, usually requiring you to take a day off from work.
Thats LA..dysfunctional as hell and thankfully LA does not represent rest of the USA..
Vicente
2012 Oct 24, 3:31am
AverageBear,
Jumping in... where has this Thomas PROVEN voter fraud at the retail level to be a huge problem requiring measures?
I have relatives in North Carolina where just about every election there's some vague allegations of fraud. Which never pan out. It must be painful to be GOP in that situation. Sad really, I'd think they'd want mandatory IQ testing of GOP politicians by now or lie detectors on a regular basis to explain why their people are such miserable failures at catching the rampant long-term voter-fraud machine they think exists.
But it's enough to MISDIRECT PEOPLE and make them run in circles doing ineffective things isn't it. Best to keep the peasants busy. That explains the TSA and lots of other GOP handiwork.
To more directly answer the original post, which is why the GOP might disintegrate is that unless they decide to switch gears and start appealing to a wider demographic, they will simply lose relevance. The plan they've used for decades is to appeal mainly to one single demographic. That demographic could almost always be counted on to vote for them and since at one time were the most significant as a percentage meant they would usually stand a good chance of winning on that alone.
The problem for them is that by the nature of the country's changing demographics, the groups that the GOP tends to not appeal to are growing in size and significance. A quick glance at any video or image of a GOP event clearly shows an almost exclusively singular demographic. Democratic events on the other hand are very mixed and diverse. So with the shift in population, this means that unless the GOP changes the appeal they have- which as mentioned is only to one specific group- then they will simply lose relevance.
Those in the GOP aren't dumb. I would wager that this will be the last election that the GOP will continue on with business as usual and there will likely be a significant change in their tactics the next cycle.
Vicente
2012 Oct 24, 3:49am
Those in the GOP aren't dumb. I would wager that this will be the last election that the GOP will continue on with business as usual and there will likely be a significant change in their tactics the next cycle.
Disagree. A chunk of GOP will have to DIE or be forcibly deposed, before a significant change will occur. The "deport all wetbacks" crowd to name just one, isn't going to change their rhetoric one bit. They expend a LOT of effort on purity testing in the primary process to see to it, that no candidate with truly liberal views on immigration gets near the nomination.
I had respect for the 'old school' Republicans, even though I disagreed with them on policy issues. This new crowd is just off the rails insane.
And many stay on the books for a long long time ... because they make sense
Deliberately missing the point. The reason laws can be repealed is that they are not the infallible word of God. Just because something is illegal does not make it necessarily wrong. Just because something is not illegal, does not necessarily make it right.
But the plutocrats that write Grover checks put a lot more zeros on them than the bottom economic and low-information voters of the right wing.
Remember: The 2 people that are running as republicans for the president and vice-president are.......
(president)Mitt Romney, cult member AND leader, and who was passed over by John McCain and the republican party in favor of SARAH PALIN in 2008!!!!
And,(vice-president)Paul Ryan, whose only big-boy job was driving the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile around and handing out free samples of their Lunchables. But hey, sucking up to the Koch brothers pays better than placating the extremists.
It kind of makes Obama and Biden look like a shoe-in.
curious2
2012 Oct 24, 5:06am
It kind of makes Obama and Biden look like a shoe-in.
They would be, except for ObamneyCare. The irony of that is, the Republicans nominated the only other person in the country who ever signed the same thing. So, while most people don't support it, they're caught between the candidate who supports it currently and the candidate who alternates between supporting it, promising to repeal all of it, promising to keep parts of it, promising to repeal it again...
When one major party goes totally bonkers, you might expect the other to win easily, but in practice the entire two-party system loses.
leo707
2012 Oct 24, 5:56am
Acorn worker WAS convicted of voter fraud.
No, he was convicted of voter registration fraud. Very different.
How many illicit votes were cast as a result of this fraud...
...zero.
The "deport all wetbacks" crowd to name just one, isn't going to change their rhetoric one bit. They expend a LOT of effort on purity testing in the primary process to see to it, that no candidate with truly liberal views on immigration gets near the nomination.
The term 'wetbacks' often spoken by native Californian born Mexican-Americans back in the 70s. The same native Californians who been here for several generations.
Anyway, its common sense to deport since illegals are legal citizens of a foreign govt.
As for immigration, we have legal process in place which allows plenty of Asian, Europeans, and Latin Americans to come to our nation... LEGALLY!
But basically, we all agree that as one of "heads" of the househould, that when we pay our bills on time, live within our means, have no debt (or no crushing debt) we are considered smart. When we try and expect this same quality/trait from our gov't, we are considered 'extreme' or 'cultish'. WTF? Not being owned by China is 'cultish'?
Did you vote for Reagan, Bush Sr., and Bush Jr. then? Let's review things.
The past 50 years to 2010
repulican democrat
yrs as president 28 22
tot jobs created 24 m 42 m
st market return 109% 992%
return p/yr 2.7% 11%
GDP growth p/yr 2.7% 4.1%
income growth p/yr 0.6% 2.2%
sourcs: Dept. of Labor, and Bloomberg
Reagan debt increase: 1st term-49%, 2nd-40%
Bush Sr debt increase: 33%
Bush Jr debt increase: 1st term-23%, 2nd-19%
87% of interest paid was on debt incurred by Reagan, Bush Sr, and Bush Jr., or $8400 Billion.
No, I think the fiscal conservative that DID exist in the Democrat party has been lynched, so to speak.
Why do or did you vote for ANY of those three republican preidents above if you are even remotely worried about the national debt???
I love it when liberals equate fiscal responsibility with 'cult'. I mentioned the following in a thread here on Patrick.net over the summer, and i don't think many liberals had much to say (I'll have to go over my comments to confirm this)... But basically, we all agree that as one of "heads" of the househould, that when we pay our bills on time, live within our means, have no debt (or no crushing debt) we are considered smart.
The problem with that sort of assumption is that for some reason a lot of Republicans automatically assume that their party somehow is the party that's all about fiscal responsibility when in fact their party spends like drunken sailors and often on pointless programs and efforts. Their party is no angel when it comes to fiscal responsibility. Yet they continually complain whenever a Democratic Presidents is in power and say nothing when a Republican gets elected and spends like mad.
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