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PeopleUnited
2013 Jan 19, 10:43pm
Vaticanus @#20
Since your name & accompanying picture indicate a Christian connection,"This is just sick and disgusting logic. You ought to be ashamed to even think that way." could be inferred as a judgement.
If it's OK, In the future I will address you as Lord God Vaticanus.
How's the troll vote going.
Catholics aren't Christians, neither are popes. But this thread is about crime. Maybe we could stay on topic? "hows the the troll vote going" could be inferred as judgement. Pot meet kettle. How's the ad hominem vote going. So you wanna talk about crime or continue personal attacks?
Like I said earlier the real problem to solve is not HOW crimes are committed but WHY.
I wasn't comparing rape to owning a gun, I was pointing out that it's absurd to claim that making something illegal doesn't stop crime.
It is very true that making something illegal does not stop crimes. An act is not a crime if it does not have a victim. A potential victim does not count. Ideally, people should do things based their conscience, not because of fear of laws. A section of population will do bad things. We punish them not because we can stop a future criminal. We punish them because we want to serve justice to the victim. Preventing a good person from owning a gun does not serve a justice to any victim. This is more like the concept of pre-crime in minority report.
So you support legalizing murder? After all, only criminals are going to murder, and they'll do it whether its legal or not, right?
marcus
2013 Jan 20, 3:35am
Ideally, people should do things based their conscience, not because of fear of laws. A section of population will do bad things. We punish them not because we can stop a future criminal. We punish them because we want to serve justice to the victim.
I disagree. Justice for the victim is in my view the least important purpose of the consequences of breaking laws. (not that it isn't important).
When a convicted rapist or murderer gets his prison sentence, fist and foremost it takes them off the street and prevents them from doing it again.
Secondly, it is a very real consequence for their actions, and yes, being a good person and having a conscience might be the usual and better reason for not committing such crimes, but knowing you could go to jail for a very long time, or perhaps be executed, is going to go in to the decision process for sociopaths or psychopaths who don't operate the way those of us with a conscience do.
People often cite the incredible drop in violent crime we've seen in the last few decades. Gee, I wonder if it has anything to do with the surprisingly high number of Americans that are incarcerated ?
Why are liberals afraid of guns?
Because terrorists can use them to kill innocent people.
Because terrorist will be sure to buy their guns legally here in the US.
So you support legalizing murder? After all, only criminals are going to murder, and they'll do it whether its legal or not, right?
I already explained that. We must prevent murders in every way possible. Making them just illegal won't be enough. For example, you can't sue the police if they arrive late after the crime has been committed. So you have the right to defend yourself.
People often cite the incredible drop in violent crime we've seen in the last few decades. Gee, I wonder if it has anything to do with the surprisingly high number of Americans that are incarcerated ?
Given that crime rates are down among all wealthy countries, and almost all demographic groups, despite not all of them having an increase in incarceration rates, probably not.
In fact, countries that haven't increases incarceration rates at all saw much larger drops in crime rates than the us over the last 4 decades.
Back in 2008, maur et all showed no correlation between incarceration rates and crime reduction.
When a convicted rapist or murderer gets his prison sentence, fist and foremost it takes them off the street and prevents them from doing it again.
That's another part. Yes, agreed.
Secondly, it is a very real consequence for their actions, and yes, being a good person and having a conscience might be the usual and better reason for not committing such crimes, but knowing you could go to jail for a very long time, or perhaps be executed, is going to go in to the decision process for sociopaths or psychopaths who don't operate the way those of us with a conscience do.
I disagree. It may prevent a very few of them. Largely, big criminals will find a way to break laws. And making something illegal without a victim is sad. We have enough innocent drug users in jail. That does not prevent future or current drug users. Even our president did that at some point in his life. Obviously he did not really commit an crime in my book, even though it was illegal.
Vaticanus,
"Catholics aren't Christians, neither are popes." My bad. They don't believe in Jesus Christ? What do you think Jesus?
If you are not Christian, I stand corrected.
"But this thread is about crime."? Read the title "...guns." In the 14 points, How many times is a mention of an association to guns?
"...continue personal attacks?" Where in my # 16 comment did I attack you?
"This is just sick and disgusting logic. You ought to be ashamed to even think that way." You quoted me and then proceeded to attack me. Who started the attack?
"Pot meet kettle." If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Your welcome to continue attacks on me. Free Country
I'm leading in the troll vote.
If we would agree there risk of owning personal firearms, the market evaluates the risk a lot better than a government. Just banning a few firearms does not solve it. We do compare cars with guns. Thus, a private liability insurance for a gun will be the best in controlling a firearm and its reckless usage than banning things IMO.
If we would agree there risk of owning personal firearms, the market evaluates the risk a lot better than a government. Just banning a few firearms does not solve it. We do compare cars with guns. Thus, a private liability insurance for a gun will be the best in controlling a firearm and its reckless usage than banning things IMO.
That only addresses accidental discharge (which is something most people would aim to avoid anyway), so it probably wouldn't have much of an impact.
Excluding suicide, most gun deaths are intentional homicides. Insurance isn't going to address that in any way.
PeopleUnited
2013 Jan 20, 9:38am
Vaticanus,
"Catholics aren't Christians, neither are popes." My bad. They don't believe in Jesus Christ? What do you think Jesus?
If you are not Christian, I stand corrected.
"But this thread is about crime."? Read the title "...guns." In the 14 points, How many times is a mention of an association to guns?
"...continue personal attacks?" Where in my # 16 comment did I attack you?
"This is just sick and disgusting logic. You ought to be ashamed to even think that way." You quoted me and then proceeded to attack me. Who started the attack?
"Pot meet kettle." If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Your welcome to continue attacks on me. Free Country
I'm leading in the troll vote.
Jesus said who is a Christian. I'll leave it up to you to discover for yourself what he says. For now I will rephrase, Being catholic or being pope does not make you a Christian. Again, Jesus will define it for you if you want him to. Or you can just ignore him, the choice is yours. I am not jesus.
Ok so the title indicates the thread is about guns, and by implication crime related to guns. So why are you talking about everything but that topic?
Implying someone is a troll and then mocking their name is personal and a personal attack. I did not attack you, I merely stated that it was sick and disgusting logic to suggest that NRA and other supporters of right to continue to bear arms have not changespd their mind because the wrong people were murdered, or the right people haven't been murdered yet. That is disgusting and anyone who would imply such hateful filth ought to be ashamed.
That only addresses accidental discharge (which is something most people would aim to avoid anyway), so it probably wouldn't have much of an impact.
Not true, we are concerned about accidental discharge and the fear of falling on the wrong hands, such as in the hands of a younger member of the family. Clearly, if you cannot buy guns unless you have a huge premium to pay for them. Bigger the gun is, bigger is the insurance.
It does not eliminate the possibility the illegal gun possession directly. But the current laws about gun bans that you have been espousing wouldn't. You can prevent surprising mass shooting at school or movie theater using this. But you can't prevent gang bangers shooting each other. Banning guns won't do that either.
Why does gun obsession and American "Christianity" go so well together?
PeopleUnited
2013 Jan 20, 10:22am
Jesus said who is a Christian. I'll leave it up to you to discover for yourself what he says. For now I will rephrase, Being catholic or being pope does not make you a Christian. Again, Jesus will define it for you if you want him to. Or you can just ignore him, the choice is yours. I am not jesus.
since we don't really have any recordings or writings from jesus, this will be tough. We do have the gospels, which weren't written by his contemporaries... (and don't tell the same tail, but heck... its not like being born of a virgin would have been important to all of them...)
not to mention, that the catholic church kept Christianity alive pretty much alone for what, 13 centuries, until Martin Luther came along? just want to drop those 1300 years out of the history of your belief?
You are mistaken, see The Trail of Blood, the "heretics" who refused to bow to Rome before Luther was a twinkle in his fathers eye. The catholic church persecuted Christians long before Luther came along. But again, this thread is about gun crime. Or do you just want to talk religion?
That only addresses accidental discharge (which is something most people would aim to avoid anyway), so it probably wouldn't have much of an impact.
Not true, we are concerned about accidental discharge and the fear of falling on the wrong hands, such as in the hands of a younger member of the family. Clearly, if you cannot buy guns unless you have a huge premium to pay for them. Bigger the gun is, bigger is the insurance.
Gun size has little to do with the damage it can cause. I'd be much more concerned about a modern handgun than a shotgun.
It does not eliminate the possibility the illegal gun possession directly. But the current laws about gun bans that you have been espousing wouldn't. You can prevent surprising mass shooting at school or movie theater using this. But you can't prevent gang bangers shooting each other. Banning guns won't do that either.
I haven't "espoused" any gun bans, actually.
*banning* guns (as in, make the production and possession of them entirely illegal for everybody) would definitely prevent gang bangers from getting guns. But that's never going to fly in the US, and it will be irrelevant in another 10 years anyway since anybody will be able to print a gun at home.
The way to prevent gun violence is to change the culture so that people don't want to resort to firearms to solve their problems.
The way to prevent gun violence is to change the culture so that people don't want to resort to firearms to solve their problems.
Ahhhh, your finally getting it!!! Nice!!!
Sorry, I think you'll find that I have a very different idea of what it means to "change the culture" than you do.
The way to prevent gun violence is to change the culture so that people don't want to resort to firearms to solve their problems.
Ahhhh, your finally getting it!!! Nice!!!
I say we shoot anyone that resorts to firearms to solve their problems!
I say we shoot anyone that resorts to firearms to solve their problems!
I think that's the idea why people want to be able to protect themselves in their homes from criminals who are solving their money "problems" by robbing people...
I agree, and the only guns needed are a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buckshot and a .357 revolver with hollow point. A rifle will penetrate walls and kill your neighbor or family.
*banning* guns (as in, make the production and possession of them entirely illegal for everybody) would definitely prevent gang bangers from getting guns.
... change the words guns to drugs and you have your answer.
*banning* guns (as in, make the production and possession of them entirely illegal for everybody) would definitely prevent gang bangers from getting guns.
... change the words guns to drugs and you have your answer.
You can't grow a gun in your back yard.
Vaticanus,
Calling my comments"..sick and disgusting logic" & that I should be "ashamed" "..is personal and a personal attack." & has nothing to do with the thread. Now, who's off topic? Wait!your attack made this the topic.
*banning* guns (as in, make the production and possession of them entirely illegal for everybody) would definitely prevent gang bangers from getting guns.
... change the words guns to drugs and you have your answer.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG
Guns require some heavy industry. This is just another one of the gun people's dishonest arguments. And the proof is found in the countries that have banned guns.
But of course the dishonest gun proponents want to ignore the evididence from countries more advanced than the USA that have banned guns.
A rifle will penetrate walls and kill your neighbor or family.
Well, then you need to go back to the range to practice on how to acquire and hit your intended target.
If you're shooting through walls and hitting your neighbor, maybe you should move out of the apartment and into a house.
It would be much easier, cheaper and effective to just use a shotgun.
Rifles are made for long distance targets which is why they over penetrate.
I guess I could line my walls with 3/4 inch steel and tell the burglar to hold nice and still while I look through my rifle scope and get a good bead on him.
Liberals only want the government and criminals to have guns.
I'm a criminal and I disagree with that statement.
Liberals only want the government and criminals to have guns.
I only want welfare queen black lesbians to have them actually. Just to infuriate right wingers.
Thedaytoday
2013 Jan 21, 3:26am
Liberals only want the government and criminals to have guns.
Moron, you know that's untrue.
zzyzzx
2013 Jan 21, 3:27am
Liberals only want the government and criminals to have guns.
Moron, you know that's untrue.
I was being sarcastic.
Unfortunately, we, and our children, still iive in a time when people enjoy killing each other. Some choose to participate and some don't.
Some evidence suggests people are changing, but slowly. Maybe the information age is speeding this up? I suspect we'll continue taking backwards steps to slow progress towards our peaceful nature.
http://stevenpinker.com/publications/better-angels-our-nature
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http://corporatemofo.com/miscellaneous_editorial_rantin/why_we_liberals_dont_like_guns.html
1. We're Afraid of Loud Noises
We liberals are vegetarians, and, like most herbivores, we are easily startled by loud noises caused by things like guns, pickup trucks, and Ted Nugent. This brings us to the fact that. . .
2. We Don't Hunt
Tofu doesn't run away, and the biggest animals in my neighborhood are the subway rats. Besides which, since we believe so strongly in animal rights, it goes without saying that deer have as much right to live and be free and run for Congress as people do. Also, the thing about guns is that. . .
3. Bullets Come Out of Them
And bullets can poke your eye out, which is what Mom always said what would happen if we played with BB guns. Speaking of which. . .
4. We Know About As Much About Them As We Do About Fixing a '56 Chevy
Face it: Most liberals, being city-dwelling pansies, have never actually shot a firearm. (I have. Twice. Once was black powder, which involved the distinct possibility of blowing myself up.) However, even with my limited experience in shooting, I quickly discovered that. . .
5. We Liberals Are Really, Really Nearsighted and Clumsy
Most liberals, including Yours Truly, wear really, really thick nerd glasses and are secretly afraid we'd be really lousy shots. Also. . .
6. Shooting Involves Being Outdoors
We'd rather stay in and read Noam Chomsky and write letters to the Village Voice and work on our pasty complexions. However, no matter how liberal we are, one of the things about guns that scares us is. . .
7. We're Afraid Negroes Might Use Them Against Us
As much as we may decry any and all racism, most liberals can't name, off the top of their head, the last time they actually hung out with a black person. The hypocrisy inherent in this issue is worth a whole story, except that I'd get branded a racist and no one would ever talk to me again.
Also, it goes without saying that. . .
8. We Really Wish We Were European
Because we heard that European women are easy. However, you're not allowed to have guns in Europe. Speaking of Europe. . .
9. We Are Trying To Make You All Into Homosexuals
And that AR-15 just doesn't go with that handbag, girlfriend. Come to think of men in uniform. . .
10. We Haven't Had Any Really Good Wars Recently
There are two wars we liberals really wish we'd been around for. The first is World War II, because, to judge by how we always compare everyone to Fascists, we would have loved to help defeat the Nazis (but not the Japanese, because, Pearl Harbor notwithstanding, they were the victims of racism).
The second war we wish we'd been around for is Vietnam, but only to protest it, because nothing will ever again be as cool as the 1960s were. Also, we hear protesting the war got you laid.
Which brings us to. . .
11. We Like to Legislate
The liberal solution to a problem is to pass more laws. Only by constantly holding the threat of getting sued over everyone's head all the time can we create a just society. After all, people are inherently good and fair-minded, and that's why we need more laws to make them behave.
Actually, the real reason that we legislate so much is. . .
12. We're Trying To Install A UN-Led Zionist Occupation Government
We're Jewish, we're trying to take over, and only you and your .22 stand between us and complete world domination!
In fact, the Jewish lust for power brings up another fear. . .
13.We're Secretly Afraid We Might Shoot Someone
No! No! Bad thought! After all. . .
14. When I Was Just a Baby, My Momma Told Me, "Son, Always be a Good Boy, Don't Ever Play with Guns"
But I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.