patrick.net

To get out of the car and try to locate a possible hoodlum?
Yes, he should have known better.

To be convicted of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter with the only facts available being in his favor, just to satisfy the angry mob? No.

marcus says

But Zimmerman should have known better.

mell says

Agreed, I am noticing the same. I have gotten some flak, and I notice that those of my FB friends who do not think along the popular faux outrage line is eerily silent, while those of my FB friends who like to participate in the frenzy are just lashing out with such well-though out quips as: "All republicans are racists!" ;)

Another one posted by a black friend of mine:

Why are so many people surprised that laws that were made for the advantage of Hetero White Males has protected and advanced the Hetero White male?

Trayvon wast the first, the fiftieth or the thousandth - and he will NOT be the last . . . Eff a conversation - what are we going to DO about it?

White person responds: "Umm... Zimmerman isn't white?"

Response: "neither was the house nig***!"

I hope black people realize this militant, almost illogical, racist overtone to their reaction of the trial is possibly driving away sentiment from their cause, and probably moving their plight backwards in the U.S. I personally know people who were sympathetic to black americans, and what they go through in the U.S, and wanted to engage in that conversation. Now, that's changing because of the outright ignorance coming from some in that community.

ch_tah2 says

Of the two choices you presented, it seems like this situation is you using name-calling as a tactic because it's all you've got.

Can you point to any specific items that prove racism on the part of the posters on here or are you just making it up or making assumptions about them because they disagree with you?

marcus says

Blurtman says

There is no proof of that. You are fabricating stories out of thin air. You are creating stories to fit your biases. Mind your thoughts and emotions

Funny you should say that. That's what you do.

There is also no proof that Zimmerman did not provoke or instigate the fight. This is exactly the point where peoples racism comes in.

We know GZ considered TM a bad guy based on his looks, and we know he said "these assholes always get away." This is at least proof that GZ had motive or inclination to instigate, provoke, or start the fight.

But people bring their racist bias in, and only because of that believe that Martin attacked Zimmerman, which I know based on my experience with teenagers is extremely unlikely (that is a teen attacking an adult in this situation). It's because he's black (and many say a thug) that so many idiots believe this story.

THe story is so obviously bs from Zimmerman designed to keep him from prison, where they would do god knows what to the kind of guy that murders children.

marcus says

Quigley says

Point is, don't attack people, even with your fists and feet, or they have a right to a vigorous defense!

Total bullshit. Why do you believe TM attacked Zimmerman ?

Let me guess. "darrr. There was a fight. Zimmerman says MArtin attacked him. Therefore it is a fact that MArtin attacked him ?"

marcus says

Goran_K says

Zimmerman being some "white" guy with a hard on for darkies was a media narrative created by race baiters like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

Are we talking about the same George "these assholes always get away" Zimmerman?

Goran_K says

Media Portrayal of Trayvon (note: Trayvon is only 13 in this picture)

Trayvon at 17 (age when he was shot)

The media tried to sell a narrative, and for the most part, race baiters were able to rally black people around it and turn the whole thing into a Civil rights issue.

He looks about 14 in the last pic. But I presume that in you rmind it shows something other than a typical kid trying to look cool for girls.

marcus says

Funny that to you these pics are evidence of the opposite of what they show me.

I heard that he also liked hip hop.

marcus says

Goran_K says

Why didn't Zimmerman just shoot any of the half dozen black guys he already previously reported and observed in the neighborhood?

So your logic is that since Zimmerman didn't murder every black kid he ever saw, therefore he didn't murder Martin ?

Why did he observe them in the neighborhood, and phone in reports "suspicious of being black." Wtf ?

marcus says

Goran_K says

Yeah, maybe he tried to bring that thug projection into real life by beating down a "creepy ass cracker". Maybe that "cracker" shot Trayvon in self defense. Maybe.

Yes, that's where the reasonable doubt apparently comes from.

But only a dimbulb racist would confuse that with innocence.

Marcus, not a single one of those shows racism.

You asked me this before, so I'll ask the same, "Are you retarded?"

As if you comprehend my point of view.

Goran_K says

I hope black people realize this militant, almost illogical, racist overtone to their reaction of the trial is possibly driving away sentiment from their cause, and probably moving their plight backwards in the U.S. I personally know people who were sympathetic to black americans, and what they go through in the U.S, and wanted to engage in that conversation. Now, that's changing because of the outright ignorance coming from some in that community.

Yeah - this is a good article by Thomas Sowell addressing this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/print/476403

marcus says

As if you comprehend my point of view.

I do now. Very clearly. An extremely biased point of view. Thank you for clarifying.

Hey, guess what - trials over. A month from now no one will give a shit.

mell says

Goran_K says

a good article by Thomas Sowell

Whu? Huh?

Heh. Heh-heh-heh. Hehehehehe!

Sowell gems:

When I see the worsening degeneracy in our politicians, our media, our educators, and our intelligentsia, I can’t help wondering if the day may yet come when the only thing that can save this country is a military coup.

Perhaps people who are busy gushing over the Obama cult today might do well to stop and think about what it would mean for their granddaughters to live under sharia law.

Heh heh heh!

Sowell, on the prospect of Iran getting the bomb:

Just two nuclear bombs were enough to get Japan to surrender in World War 2. It is hard to believe that it would take more than that for the United States of America to surrender – Especially with people in control of the White House and the Congress who were for turning tail and running just a couple years ago.

Giggle - I'm sure them librulz would surrender without a fight if Iran hit us with two nukes!

To find anything comparable to the crowds’ euphoric reactions to Mr. Obama, you would have to go back to the old news reels of German crowds in the 1930’s with their adulation of their Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler

Chuckle - damn, that's some good name-calling! Well, not really...

The evidence shows that an unarmed man was shot dead.

Everything else is bullsh$$&t

StillLooking says

The evidence shows that an unarmed man was shot dead.

That's clearly the problem: this would have turned out a lot better if Trayvon had been exercising his 2nd Amendment rights, as The Founders intended.

This is great news for US arms manufacturers. Everyone will have to carry at least one weapon. Buy shares now!

HydroCabron says

Whu? Huh?

Heh. Heh-heh-heh. Hehehehehe!

Sowell gems:

What's your point? Because anybody who said something you consider silly or crazy is immediately discredited for life? Think about it, by that token it would look very bleak for TM and GZ would be a hero as until that night he has been a good citizen, even advocating the rights of a black homeless man who had been beaten by the cops in an earlier incident. Btw. I share some (not all) of your objections to the opinions you cited, but I don't think it's relevant for this topic.

Marcus do you teach "It's the white mans fault 101" in a university somewhere?

Moderate Infidel says

Hey, guess what - trials over. A month from now no one will give a shit.

I hope so. It was a made up narrative anyway. I'll chalk it up as a bad summer movie.

One can only wonder how the "be a man" credo added to Trayvon's actions to fight Zimmerman versus running away. And so it would have been better for Obama to discourage all young men from resorting to violence to solve problems, as there are frequently deadly, and often unintended consequences. But that might not have as strong an appeal to his base. As always, the illegitimate, pandering politician.

Blurtman says

And so it would have been better for Obama to discourage all young men from resorting to violence to solve problems...

Absolutely - I lay Trayvon's actions directly at the feet of Obama.

The declining crime rates are certainly an illusion then, seeing as all young black men take their marching orders from the "White" House, den of the devilish black usurper.

As always, the illegitimate, pandering politician.

Interesting... I wonder what characteristic it is that makes him "illegitimate". Something different about this President... I wonder what it could be.

StillLooking says

The evidence shows that an unarmed man was shot dead.

Everything else is bullsh$$&t

CPD: Rape Suspect Fatally Shot By Police Was Unarmed
http://www.nbc4i.com/story/20739291/cpd-rape-suspect-fatally-shot-by-police-was-unarmed

Colorado Dem to Rape Survivor: A Gun Wouldn’t Have Helped You Against Rapist Because ‘Statistics Are Not on Your Side’

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/05/colorado-dem-to-rape-survivor-a-gun-wouldnt-have-helped-you-against-rapist-because-statistics-are-not-on-your-side/

So ladies, if the guy is unarmed... just lie back and enjoy it and remember to vote Democrat!

HydroCabron says

Interesting... I wonder what characteristic it is that makes him
"illegitimate". Something different about this President... I wonder what it
could be.

Are you doing drugs when you post here? Your replies have nothing at all to do with what people post. Illegitimate because he is trying to appear concerned, but instead, is using the opportunity to score political points. Always the politician, as someone had described him to be.

ch_tah2 says

From the photos and other sources, TM was into:

-guns

-pot smoking

-drinking

-grillz

-fighting

-hanging out with illiterate people

He sure sounds like the all-american boy to me... If you can't see that he was thuggish or a wanna-be thug, you are in denial. None of that makes it ok to kill him for no reason, but to ignore reality is absurd (and biased).

not anymore he's dead, while zm is free to continue to pursue all of this things

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

Are you ready for Zimaggedon?

No more stuccoburbia - now it's Freedom Tract©!

HOA, PTA, & 40S&W HK USP!

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

Are you ready for Zimaggedon?

How much are classes in cannibal anarchy at your guild?

Your ancestors must have owned a big plantation for you to be carrying this much guilt.

StillLooking says

The evidence shows that an unarmed man was shot dead.

Everything else is bullsh$$&t

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

When racial civil war breaks out, are you going to be properly equipped?

I live near Camp Bullis, a local military training post. I can hear machine fire on the weekends.

I still can't figure out why it's so important re: who provoked the fight.

It's more important to know if Zimmerman committed acts that a reasonable person would know would lead to someone getting injured or killed.

From that perspective(and make no mistake...that's what the legal standard is), TM is FAR more guilty than GZ is.

At least judging by the pictures..

Plus, Zimmerman provoking any fight is simply theory, or imagination at this point. The theory that prevailed in court was Zimmerman was walking back to his car when he was attacked, clearly making Trayvon the aggressor.

Putting aside everything that GZ has said, the hard evidence shows GZ with all the defensive wounds, and TM with all the offensive wounds.
Case Closed.
(to all but the guilt-ridden great great grandsons and daughters of the southern plantation owners )

marcus says

Total bullshit. Why do you believe TM attacked Zimmerman ?

Let me guess. "darrr. There was a fight. Zimmerman says MArtin attacked him. Therefore it is a fact that MArtin attacked him ?"

dodgerfanjohn says

I still can't figure out why it's so important re: who provoked the fight.

Because, both with natural human morals, and within the law intent is a big deal.

dodgerfanjohn says

It's more important to know if Zimmerman committed acts that a reasonable person would know would lead to someone getting injured or killed.

From that perspective(and make no mistake...that's what the legal standard is), TM is FAR more guilty than GZ is.

At least judging by the pictures..

?

So...what you are saying is that from the crime scene pictures of TM and Zim that it looks like TM was the one who committed acts that would more reasonably lead to killing someone?

You are joking right? You do realize that Trayvon is actually dead, but Zim is alive, right?

There has been a lot of bellyaching and whining about how Zim was being "convicted" in the media of crimes.

Zim got his day in court and it was shown that there was not enough evidence to prove that Zim had committed any crimes.

The hypocrisy is that all those that have been bellyaching about Zim being pre-convicted have themselves been convicting Trayvon of crimes, and TM will never get a day in court.

Yeah, TM's dead body and Zim's beaten face are shocking images, but it does matter how they got that way and who intended what. Unfortunately, we will never know what happened that night. We will never know if Trayvon's attack on Zim was unprovoked and/or unwarranted. We will never know if Zim actually was acting in self-defense or if it was Trayvon acting in self-defense.

Goran_K says

Plus, Zimmerman provoking any fight is simply theory, or imagination at this point. The theory that prevailed in court was Zimmerman was walking back to his car when he was attacked, clearly making Trayvon the aggressor.

The idea that TM was the aggressor who followed Zim back to his car was theory as well. In this case there were enough alternative theories that it gave the jury enough reasonable doubt.

Perhaps if TM was in the court room and Zim beaten to death there would have been enough reasonable doubt to release TM. We will never know.

SoftShell says

Case Closed.

Well...we will see how the civil case goes...but yeah case closed on the criminal proceedings.

SoftShell says

Putting aside everything that GZ has said, the hard evidence shows GZ with all the defensive wounds, and TM with all the offensive wounds.

That is one theory. How about another one -- We also know that TM was alive for a while after being shot through the heart. People have been known to act (and kill) for a short while after suffering a fatal heart wound. For all we know GZ was hit in the face after TM already was dieing.

We have speculative theories, but the only thing we know for sure is that there was not enough evidence to prove Zim committed a crime. We don't have any way of knowing what actually happened that night. Assuming that TM was guilty of anything is just like assuming Zim's guilt.

That's the whole ball of wax right there.

leo707 says

We will never know if Trayvon's attack on Zim was unprovoked and/or unwarranted. We will never know if Zim actually was acting in self-defense or if it was Trayvon acting in self-defense.

One can speculate on a multitude of theories.
But the one I listed below is the only one I can think of that is backed by hard evidence.

leo707 says

SoftShell says

Putting aside everything that GZ has said, the hard evidence shows GZ with all the defensive wounds, and TM with all the offensive wounds.

That is one theory.

Goran_K says

Moderate Infidel says

Hey, guess what - trials over. A month from now no one will give a shit.

I hope so. It was a made up narrative anyway. I'll chalk it up as a bad summer movie.

ZIMMERNADO

This summer, stand your ground. . . .

The only one backed by the evidence available shows Trayvon as the aggressor. Zimmerman had all the defensive injuries (broken nose, gashes on head), while Trayvon had all the offensive wounds (cuts below knuckles, etc).

Now it is possible that Zimmerman provoked the fight by pushing, or doing Aikido, or Jiu-jitsu, and just got thrown to the ground and beaten, but that's all speculation.

What we do know is even when Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, an eye witness, the closest out of the 8 witnesses called to the court about that night and generally accepted to have the best viewpoint outside of Zimmerman and Trayvon said that Trayvon was on top, while Zimmerman was yelling for help getting beat down. This witness even managed to ask Trayvon to get off of GZ or he was going to call the cops, and he didn't hear the shot until he was already in his 2nd story condo attempting to call 911.

That shows that Trayvon Martin had ample opportunity to stop the engagement regardless of how it started, but he didn't stop, and caught a bullet in the chest.

SoftShell says

One can speculate on a multitude of theories.

But the one I listed below is the only one I can think of that is backed by hard evidence.

The problem with looking at the wounds (let us not forget that TM did indeed receive a defensive wound that evening) is that is only part of the picture. How and why the wounds got there is much more important.

Did Zim get punched because he: brandished a gun; already shot TM; grabbed TM; tried to force TM to the ground; swung at TM; threatened to kill TM? There are many perfectly legitimate scenarios that could have lead to the same wound patterns. Scenarios that show either Zim or TM to be the aggressor. Hell, it could have been a legitimate misunderstanding where -- based on what they knew at the time -- neither party acted improperly (well, except for Zim disregarding 911s request that he not follow in the first place) and things just escalated out of control.

Goran_K says

Now it is possible that Zimmerman provoked the fight by pushing, or doing Aikido, or Jiu-jitsu, and just got thrown to the ground and beaten, but that's all speculation.

Maybe one day you will explain why it is more speculative that Martin caused the fight than that Zimmerman did.

Zimmerman's story is the only reason you have. The fact that Martin got in several good punches and Zimmerman did not does not prove that it was more likely Martin was the initial aggressor.

If anything, it is more likely that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor, considering that we know he thought Martin was an asshole burgler that was getting away. At a minimum he probably tried with force or threats to detain Martin. That was not his right (even if he was armed).

You don't care why the fight happened, you just think Duuu,...if him was beating hims ass then him okay to kill. It self defense because wounds on face. Wounds on evil guys hand. That proof me smart you stupid.

Then why didn't Trayvon get off of Zimmerman when he had ample opportunity? The closest eye witness account shows that Trayvon continued to beat Zimmerman even after being asked to get off, and the witness threatening to call the cops.

Doesn't have the ring of "someone trying to defend himself", sounds like someone was trying to take a piece of flesh and had some blood lust going.

Goran_K says

What we do know is even when Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, an eye witness, the closest out of the 8 witnesses called to the court about that night and generally accepted to have the best viewpoint outside of Zimmerman and Trayvon said that Trayvon was on top, while Zimmerman was yelling for help getting beat down.

While eye witnesses are the most trusted source they are also notoriously "mistaken" in what they see. Other eye witnesses put Zim on top.

Goran_K says

while Trayvon had all the offensive wounds (cuts below knuckles, etc).

Yes, Trayvon had one small cut to his hand.

Goran_K says

Zimmerman had all the defensive injuries (broken nose, gashes on head)

Yes, and they were consistent with someone being hit perhaps two or three times. Not the life threatening beating that Zim described.

I am not saying that TM did not act aggressively that night, but we just don't know how justified his actions were or were not.

Goran_K says

Then why didn't Trayvon get off of Zimmerman when he had ample opportunity? The closest eye witness account shows that Trayvon continued to beat Zimmerman even after being asked to get off, and the witness threatening to call the cops.

MAybe because he knew or thought that if he did, Zimmerman was going to shoot him. That is if it's even true.

marcus says

Maybe one day you will explain why it is more speculative that Martin caused the fight than that Zimmerman did.

leo707 says

Yes, and they were consistent with someone being hit perhaps two or three times. Not the life threatening beating that Zim described.

Speculation.

How do you know how many times it takes to break a nose? Or causes the gashes that Zimmerman had?

Stop interjecting your "amateur investigator" analysis, and stick to the facts.