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If Your Doctor Insists That Vaccines Are Safe, Then Have Them Sign This Form
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2013 Jul 18, 4:47am 20,234 views 90 comments
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I don't think anyone in the medical field would ever say vaccines are 100% safe. Every time anyone I've ever known has gotten a vaccine, they are told there are risks. Go get a vaccine, and see if they tell you that there are risks.
Furthermore, name ONE medical procedure or any other form of medication that is 100% safe or free or risk. You won't find any. So why the scrutiny over vaccines when they fall under this same standard?
The main reason for the increased autism rates in kids is that they're now being diagnosed more aggresively, probably in part because there's money in it for the health care mafia.
20 years ago those same "autistic" kids would have just been considered a bit weird or introverted.
Edvard2 said: Electricity is the true evil, and a threat to everyone's well-being.
You mock now, but I'm willing to bet you didn't consider that slightly discounted home beneath high voltage power lines. See, we can bring all discussions back to real estate. Location, location, location...
PS - Stay away from Waldorf Schools. Anti-vaxers seem to congregate there.
The main reason for the increased autism rates in kids is that they're now being diagnosed more aggresively, probably in part because there's money in it for the health care mafia.
20 years ago those same "autistic" kids would have just been considered a bit weird or introverted.
Let's say your assumption holds some truth, that doesn't mean that there wasn't a physical reason for kids to act "weird" or "introverted" and that we should not at least investigate. Big pharma pills were only able to address some of the symptoms of autism, but so far have done nothing to address the root causes. Treatments don't have to be expensive at all, but those avenues are usually not pursued by big pharma.
I don't think anyone in the medical field would ever say vaccines are 100% safe. Every time anyone I've ever known has gotten a vaccine, they are told there are risks. Go get a vaccine, and see if they tell you that there are risks.
Furthermore, name ONE medical procedure or any other form of medication that is 100% safe or free or risk. You won't find any. So why the scrutiny over vaccines when they fall under this same standard?
The issue is that medical procedures are usually done when they are absolutely necessary, or let me rephrase, should be done only when absolutely necessary, so there are little alternatives in that case. But if your chance of catching hepatitis B throughout your life is small anyways and if the majority of childhood illnesses pose no threat to the kid by letting the body cope with it acquiring natural immunity, then it becomes a risk/reward question that should be considered instead of blindly vaccinating yourself or your child against everything.
Edvard2 said: Electricity is the true evil, and a threat to everyone's well-being.
You mock now, but I'm willing to bet you didn't consider that slightly discounted home beneath high voltage power lines. See, we can bring all discussions back to real estate. Location, location, location...
Uhhh... I didn't say that. Someone else did. But interesting you bring this up, which probably fits right in with the general conversation here because high power overhead transmission lines have also been studied extensively and to date, there hasn't been any conclusive evidence that links them to various health concerns unless of course someone were dumb enough to touch the live wires.
But the overall gist here is weighing the risks. Is it more risky to not get a vaccine that shields you against a potentially deadly virus or to not get one over fear of possible side effects? Like mentioned before, there is always risk in anything. So trying to make any decision that is based on trying to avoid any risk at all is utterly futile.
B.A.C.A.H.
2013 Jul 19, 5:27am
We are not International Jet-Setters like so many of the hipsters in the "Bay Area, Cool And Hip. ".
We're just workaday folks who workaday commute to workaday cubicles in our workaday jobs. If we are lucky we can get away for a day or two to some kind of world class leisure place like Point Reyes or Tahoe.
Since we're more or less staying near home in 2013, we can benefit from vaccines without taking them: enough other people around us get the vaccines that we're protected by "them". Especially since so many of them being World Travelers are all up to date on vaccinations.
I got a tdap booster shot last year. Was sick for two weeks after that. No one told me at Mt Sinai in New York(not that I needed them to), as most of the time, the nurses are the ones administering shots and not physicians. Also, if something can cause death or severe illness, why are they not reported more frequently by physicians? By the CDC and FDA estimates the number of adverse events is underreported by 90-99%. When that is the case, it's difficult to evaluate the cost/benefit analysis.
Further compounding the issue is that there are no double blinded clinical trials to prove the efficacy of vaccines versus placebos, as is the case for all other pharmaceuticals. Presumably it is not ethical to do double blinded clinical trials for potentially life-threatening illnesses as vaccines are designed to prevent.
The only evidence for vaccines efficacy is based on cohort studies
I've never had a physician say to me: Giving a vaccine might be associated with x, y or z risk and it's hard to know for sure since actual vaccine injuries are grossly underreported. If your physician does that, then that's the mark of someone doing a good job of informed consent
Go get a vaccine, and see if they tell you that there are risks.
Dude, how could you be so 'selfish'
ince we're more or less staying near home in 2013, we can benefit from vaccines without taking them: enough other people around us get the vaccines that we're protected by "them
No conclusive evidence.......yet. The meta-analyses of case-control studies thus far still suggests that being close to power lines is carcinogenic presumably due to the EMR it generates.
http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v103/n7/abs/6605838a.html
If you have seen any more powerful studies to date, I'd be interested at looking at them
here hasn't been any conclusive evidence that links them to various health concerns unless of course someone were dumb enough to touch the live wires.
I got a tdap booster shot last year. Was sick for two weeks after that. No one told....
So are you saying that due to your experience that you're never going to get a vaccine again?
In my experience, most doctors stink at informed consent across the board. I don't think it's a vaccine specific issue at all, although vaccines are the topic being discussed here. Some of it has to do with greed, as, if it falls under 'standard of care' and doctors can bill for it, some doctors might do just that, even if it doesn't benefit the patient......the other thing is the insurance mill brand of medical practice where each patient is often just part of a production line.
Tough to practice good medicine when a doctor has only 5-15 minutes to see a patient, often less. Things like informed consent usually get short shrift; to reiterate, it is not a vaccine-specific problem, rather, it is a systemic managed care problem across all fields of medicine and most treatments.
Furthermore, name ONE medical procedure or any other form of medication that is 100% safe or free or risk. You won't find any. So why the scrutiny over vaccines when they fall under this same standard?
No conclusive evidence.......yet. The meta-analyses of case-control studies thus far still suggests that being close to power lines is carcinogenic presumably due to the EMR it generates.
Last I read there has been around 25,000 studies conducted concerning high power lines. As stated before, there is as of now no conclusive evidence to suggest health issues with high power transmission lines. As someone who actually works occasionally with high power devices, it- like most any other potentially dangerous item- has certain safety protocols and common sense concerning them.
For instance there is a threshold that when met with a set voltage that can cause harm to you if you don't take precautions. The distance one is standing from a high power sources is also a factor. Given that high power lines are often well over 100 feet up in the air pretty much guarantees that you are already fairly far from the source.
This conversation comes right back to where I started from: If you are someone seeking potentially harmful side effects of basically.... anything, well, congratulations. You'll find a potentially harmful outcome for basically anything that exists. The question is how do you deal with that reality? Go hide under the bed all day? Of course not. You weigh the risks and use common sense to make a decision.
In my experience, most doctors stink at informed consent across the board.
Your personal experiences doesn't mean that translates to overarching fact.
B.A.C.A.H.
2013 Jul 19, 7:03am
Edvard, before "The Valley" was so Cool and Hip, lotsa techs were military veterans who got their technician training in the military during the Cold War. Some of them told me that if they were working near microwave radars in cold places like Alaska or Canada or Manchuria (yes, "we were" there too, Red gov't didn't want people to know, though) they'd try to warm up by getting very close to the transmitters.
No I don't have that luxury. But as long as my titers are good and no one bothers me about it, I will do everything I can to minimize my exposure. I have to have my titers checked every 2 years for MMR, HBV, DTP and VZV and annual TB test. My titers were good from shots I took over 20 years ago.
At least for the next few years I have to take a flu shot. That also made me sick last year btw. But it is better than walking around talking to patients while wearing a face shield, since the only contraindication for school is an allergy to eggs. I also don't want to be remembered as 'that guy' who asked for a religious exemption; in my case it wouldn't even be entertained. Even if it were entertained, my future advancement relies on me not ruffling the wrong feathers and committing career suicide. Until a student gets through a residency, they have to be very careful about expressing an opinion on anything.
The stupidity of giving a flu vaccine is that the vaccine only accounts for 2 or 3 strains of flu and guessing which one is going to be prevalent in a given season is a crapshoot. Secondly, it isn't going to prevent you from transmitting the flu virus to another patient.
Most students just do it because they have no brains.other than to regurgitate what someone else wants them to know and don't think critically about the issues of health care worker autonomy vs patient safety. Not thinking about these issues and just accepting things in a robotic manner makes it easier for these future doctors to push garbage on unsuspecting people.
I got a tdap booster shot last year. Was sick for two weeks after that. No one told....
So are you saying that due to your experience that you're never going to get a vaccine again?
That's true, but I still probably know exponentially more doctors than you do
edvard2 says
In my experience, most doctors stink at informed consent across the board.
Your personal experiences doesn't mean that translates to overarching fact.
Oh I've heard of some stories like that and worse. What's a little creepy is that in the 60's there was a situation where one brand of TV actually produced X-rays. In order for a cathode tube to "fire", you need an enormous amount of current. As in anywhere from 10,000-30,000 volts. In the 50's and 60's of course the TVs were powered with vacuum tubes. The BW sets usually operated their CRTs at under 10,000 volts, so that wasn't a big deal. Color tvs on the other hand use a LOT more current, as in 20-30,000 volts. I can't recall the exact number, but whenever you operate something at around 14,000-16,000 volts ( Can't recall the exact number) therein lies the possibility that this high voltage will generate X-Rays. TV manufactures placed shields and coatings on the high voltage components to prevent X-rays from escaping their enclosures. But apparently in the 60's there was a number of sets from one manufacture that had some high power output tubes with inadequate shielding. Result? Some families watched TV and got X-rayed at the same time. ( Actually the X-rays were shooting out of the bottom of the tubes to the floor so it probably wasn't that awful) but nevertheless... who woulda' thunk?
That's true, but I still probably know exponentially more doctors than you do
Oh you do? I would be rather curious as to how you arrived at that very informative conclusion.
Because I have a lot more relatives who are doctors and I'm in medical school???
Because I have a lot more relatives(over 30) who are doctors and I'm in medical school???
Reasons underlining why informed consent is suffering in medical care
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/10/informed-consent-central-doctorpatient-relationship.html
Because I have a lot more relatives who are doctors and I'm in medical school???
And so you just randomly assumed that I too don't have that exact same situation?
You're a doctor? sure dude
Because I have a lot more relatives who are doctors and I'm in medical school???
And so you just randomly assumed that I too don't have that exact same situation?
No one told me at Mt Sinai in New York(not that I needed them to), as most of the time, the nurses are the ones administering shots and not physicians.
If you are saying no one told you that there are risks, I find that very hard to believe. Every time I've ever gotten a vaccine or been with someone while they got one, several comments were made regarding risks, including mild ones like becoming slightly ill after receiving the vaccine.
Because I have a lot more relatives who are doctors and I'm in medical school???
That's amusing that you have ??? at the end of your sentence.
I think we are all questioning your comment.
No one told me at Mt Sinai in New York(not that I needed them to), as most of the time, the nurses are the ones administering shots and not physicians.
If you are saying no one told you that there are risks, I find that very hard to believe. Every time I've ever gotten a vaccine or been with someone while they got one, several comments were made regarding risks, including mild ones like becoming slightly ill after receiving the vaccine.
Pediatricians never talk about risks before giving vaccines. Telling you after the fact that your kid may come down with symptoms is not discussing the risks beforehand and giving you a choice. Nobody advocated not to get any vaccinations, but to do a risk/reward analysis on each of them and then cut out the unnecessary ones. The flu shot and hep b vaccine are prime candidates for deep scrutiny, tetanus is likely accepted by most as necessary. The MMR combo might have been a good idea, but measles is the most threatening one, it is debatable why one would need the other MR. Plus, some illnesses are easily fought off by kids but can cripple you in adulthood, so never being exposed to therm means you have to stay on top for a lifetime. Lastly, checking your titers should be the preferred method as antibodies can last in some for a lifetime and perish quickly for others, so why vaccinate without testing the titers first, which is fairly cheap.
While we're on this subject, well gosh- if the contents of this post is really that concerning then what about cars? Should the automakers all have representatives who show up each time we take the ole' jalopy for a spin so can sign a documents that let's us know there is a "possibility" we might get in a crash?
Pediatricians never talk about risks before giving vaccines.
That is just flat out false. Nothing more to say.
Pediatricians never talk about risks before giving vaccines.
That is just flat out false. Nothing more to say.
Sure, I imagined the whole thing from the kid's birth to the first visits and vaccinations. Most doctors & hospitals will even freely admit that since they are not on the hook for the vaccinations.
http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Fulltext/2005/05001/Duration_of_Immunity_Against_Pertussis_After.11.as
"Duration of Immunity Against Pertussis After Natural Infection or Vaccination"
Despite decades of high vaccination coverage, pertussis has remained endemic and reemerged as a public health problem in many countries in the past 2 decades. Waning of vaccine-induced immunity has been cited as one of the reasons for the observed epidemiologic trend. A review of the published data on duration of immunity reveals estimates that infection-acquired immunity against pertussis disease wanes after 4-20 years and protective immunity after vaccination wanes after 4-12 years. Further research into the rate of waning of vaccine-acquired immunity will help determine the optimal timing and frequency of booster immunizations and their role in pertussis control.
"vaccination wanes after 4-12 years"
DURATION OF IMMUNITY ACQUIRED BY wP VACCINATION
Estimates of the duration of immunity acquired after wP vaccination range from 4 to 12 years (Table 2). 5,6,13,14,17-21 These estimates have been derived indirectly from various studies, none of which was designed primarily to study the duration of immunity.
No, just that you have stated that you come from a family of teachers repeatedly.....I guess that's a 'random assumption'.....
Not to mention that you came to the bay area working at minimum wage jobs and saved money to buy the house you had today. If you had been a doctor, you would almost certainly be in debt today.
Thirdly you are a major proponent of Obamacare. Most doctors are not, so that would decrease the odds of you being a doctor as well
hmm....so much for common sense
randomly assumed that I too don't have that exact same situation?
Coming from a non-doctor/medical student who has never been in an environment where vaccine shots were administered to other peoples kids. Believe what you want to believe, doesn't make it so. There are always exceptions, but saying that informed consent is the norm shows how little you actually know.
Get back to me when you start working in a hospital on a day to day basis.
f you are saying no one told you that there are risks, I find that very hard to believe
Shaman
2013 Jul 19, 3:40pm
Speaking of flu vaccines. Yes, they have been spectacularly unhelpful at preventing disease in the past, an also perfect waste of resources. But this company Inovio is preparing for clinical trials of a new flu vaccine that prevented 100% of transmission in mice. Might be the new gold standard in flu vaccines if it makes it all the way to market.
turtledove
2013 Jul 19, 4:23pm
If all these vaccines cause cancer then why don't we all have cancer? The vaccines have been administered for many decades now. I understand that you say it's underreported, but wouldn't we see some evidence among our friends, families, co-workers, schoolmates, and acquaintances? How are we all dodging these bullets?
My son was one of those children who, despite vaccination, got the measles. Because he had been vaccinated, he got a very mild case of the disease. He was still sick as a dog (the measles were in his ears... the kid was shrieking in pain for days). I would hate to find out what a severe case of measles looks like.
You know how many people whom he had come in contact with at home and school caught the measles from him? None. It's hard to imagine that vaccines don't have something to do with that. Especially when you consider that back in my parents' days (before MMR shots), kids got measles rather easily (usually from exposure to another kid at school or a sibling who brought it home).
My son was the first kid I've EVER known who got a non-mutating disease for which he had been vaccinated. If the vaccines don't work, wouldn't we know people who are getting these diseases despite having been vaccinated?
Common means it's happening with a degree of frequency. Are all these people part of the pharmaceutical conspiracy? I guess no one told me I was supposed to keep our measles-despite-vaccination-situation a secret.
Oh.... someone's at the door. I better get that. It must be big-pharma coming over to silence me. If I don't post again, be careful whom you repeat my story to. You could be next!
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If Your Doctor Insists That Vaccines Are Safe, Then Have Them Sign This Form http://bit.ly/17ofe4k
The average person that consents to a vaccine injection, either for themselves or for their children, genuinely believes it is for the betterment of health. What they are not aware of is that even their doctor is likely unfamiliar with the toxic ingredients contained in vaccines which can immediately begin to degrade both short- and long-term health. If your doctor insists that vaccines are safe, then they should have absolutely no problem in signing this form so that you may archive it for your own records on the event of an adverse reaction.
The reality of vaccines is that they are a far greater risk to human health than benefit and always have been. In fact, two centuries of official death statistics show conclusively and scientifically that modern medicine is not responsible for and played little part in substantially improving life expectancy and survival from diseases in developed nations.
Proof: