patrick.net

A few years ago I used to be a little skeptical about vaccines, but that has changed in recent years. Working in healthcare I get offered free flu shots every year. I watch as some of my kookier co-workers refuse the shot for whatever reason. Then I also observe some of the smartest and most talented doctors I have ever met be the first in line to get the shot. I'll go along with the doctor before any of you kooks.

Not throwing the piss pots out into the street went a long way to curtail diseases in developed nations.

Part of the problem is financial. Vaccines should be distributed freely by the VA as part of the national defense, even the Post Office should deliver nasal spray vaccines. Instead America's sick-care system creates perverse incentives and lethal consequences. More than 70 million doses of H1N1 vaccine expired unused because the federal government gave them to doctors who tried to charge more than the market would bear, while more than 10,000 Americans died of H1N1 very expensively in hospitals. Meanwhile independent doctors often lose $ on vaccines because insurance doesn't want to pay for them, and that loss affects the doctors' enthusiasm for them. OTOH MRK paid Texas politicians to mandate Gardasil for schoolgirls at $400/dose, despite real concerns about safety and efficacy. Whenever there is a public campaign giving out vaccines, I go. When profiteers try to overcharge, I don't go. When something costs money, people think of reasons not to go, even crazy reasons that they would never pay attention to if it were free. The American system maximizes revenue for the lobbyists who control it, and often that means preventing people from getting vaccinated - paywalls, gatekeepers, misinformation, etc. I would call the lethal consequences unintended, but in a sense they are intended, in that they are foreseeable by-products of a system intended to maximize revenue.

puhim says

I have a zero tolerance policy for brain dead idiots who push the "evil dangerous vaccines" myth.

Proof bellow you bottom feeding shallow DICK-WAD!

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8pUR6KX_Vq8J:www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/updates/archive/polio_and_cancer_factsheet.htm+cdc+polio+cancer+fact+sheet&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

curious2 says

Part of the problem is financial.

Correct though I think you meant greed.

CaptainShuddup says

curious2 says

Part of the problem is financial.

Correct though I think you meant greed.

The entire problem is greed / eugenics

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html

I have no clue where this shit about vaccines somehow being dangerous came from. All I know is that its a whole hell of a lot more dangerous to NOT get vaccinated against the many diseases they eradicated in the first place.

HydroCabron says

What is appropriate is that they should die of ass cancer of the slowest-growing kind, and then spend eternity giving Hitler blow jobs in Hell.

So it's no longer hell for Hitler?

This is not a black and white issue, and there are some valid concerns regarding side-effects, adjuvants and contamination and their overall impact vs the actual benefit to prevent sickness from a given virus. Some vaccines are more useful than others, some offer almost no benefits and a lot of risks but are still widely used. There there is such crap as "spraying" (of pesticides and other crap) like it was done here in CA or other states to prevent relatively harmless west nile virus which is simply criminal as you have no choice but being exposed. Oh well, you can always move ;)

marcus says

One thing I know for sure. Making flu vaccines is big business.

So is the manufacture of airbags, food, and water filtration. Do you disable all your airbags, refuse food, and drink only water from gutters and streams?

You're diminishing herd immunity by refusing vaccines, by the way: it's not just your own body you're playing games with.

edvard2 says

I have no clue where this shit about vaccines somehow being dangerous came from. All I know is that its a whole hell of a lot more dangerous to NOT get vaccinated against the many diseases they eradicated in the first place.

Take your head out of your shitter and open your eyes! Blind fool.

HydroCabron says

So is the manufacture of airbags, food, and water filtration. Do you disable all your airbags, refuse food, and drink only water from gutters and streams?

You're diminishing herd immunity by refusing vaccines, by the way: it's not just your own body you're playing games with.

Would you still take the Polio vaccine that the CDC admittedly gives you CANCER!

"Other misinformed educators also still rely on the myth of herd immunity which is nothing short of medical fraud. It is a shame and embarrassment that brilliant students are deceptively led down the path of ignorance every single year at prestigious medical institutions in the hopes of obtaining an education. These students then become the physicians of a good percentage of the population.

One of the problems we have in a society filled with misinformation about health, is that people sit on the fence. They want to conform to the societal norms ingrained in our minds about conventional medicine, but they also want to stand up for their beliefs and conscience. These fence sitters are made up of those who understand that current vaccination practices are unsafe, yet somehow also believe you can make vaccines safer or more effective. That is where we have to shift the opinions of those who are on the fence and have them fall off on the side of natural health rather than conventional medicine. See my article When It Comes to Vaccines, Don’t Sit On The Fence!"

Electricity is the true evil, and a threat to everyone's well-being. It has been used by the government to execute those that it deems no longer worthy of living. It is in your walls. Sticking any conductive object into a live electrical outlet can easily lead to injury or death. It is proven that exposure to electricity is dangerous. Stop this menace NOW and get electricity our of our homes and away from our children! There is clearly no justification for having such a clear danger present in every corner of our lives. Fireplaces and oil lamps can provide all of the heat and light that any person would need.

HydroCabron says

marcus says

One thing I know for sure. Making flu vaccines is big business.

So is the manufacture of airbags, food, and water filtration. Do you disable all your airbags, refuse food, and drink only water from gutters and streams?

I wasn't saying that it being big business makes it wrong. But it is in a category with many other pharmaceutical products whose safety and efficacy (in this case for young people) are at least questionable.

I would never claim that the whole bird flu scare was hyped for business reasons. But on the other hand I'm not sure that it wasn't. Many of the predictions certainly didn't come true.

HydroCabron says

You're diminishing herd immunity by refusing vaccines, by the way: it's not just your own body you're playing games with.

This works both ways.

If we had the technology from the day a child was born to protect it from being exposed to a single bacteria or virus, in which case the childs body and immune system would never experience fighting off any kind of cold or flu, ever.... You are certain that this is a good thing for the indiviual or for the herd ? I'm not.

Dr. Bernard Greenberg, a respected epidemiologist and visionary leader at the UNC school of Public Health, testified before Congress in 1962(10 years post-salk) that statistics were used incorrectly to determine the effectiveness of the polio vaccine.

He also testified that the polio vaccine actually increased the incidence of polio. When I look for evidence that he was a kook, crazy or wildly incorrect, I can't seem to find that. If someone else can find that I would look forward to reading and evaluating that evidence.

http://www2.sph.unc.edu/biostatistics_news/dr._bernard_g._greenberg_a_visionary_leader_9220_8289.html

In 1977, Dr. Jonas Salk testified that mass inoculation with the polio virus was the most common cause of polio was the polio vaccine after 1961.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2012/02/18/the-polio-vaccine-myth-the-vaccine-stopped-polio/

Knowing that it was contaminated with SV40, which is proven, in 1961, to cause tumors in rodents is also found in human tumors as well, specifically some forms of mesothelioma, non-hodgkin's lymphoma, osteosarcoma

http://www.expert-reviews.com/doi/abs/10.1586/14760584.4.2.197

However, it's worth noting, it hasn't been proven that SV40 causes tumors in humans

Regarding the best and brightest physicians, they are often (not always) the best at regurgitating a limited (but still vast) amount of information that someone else told them to learn. Not necessarily the same as logic or intellectual curiosity.

Someone who refers to people who opt out of vaccines 'kooky' while seeing that the 'best and brightest' take the vaccines and blindly following them is basically a lemming.

MMR says

Someone who refers to people who opt out of vaccines 'kooky' while seeing that the 'best and brightest' take the vaccines and blindly following them is basically a lemming.

and those idiots continue to shoot the messengers!

blind deluded followers won't listen to anybody!

puhim says

and those idiots continue to shoot the messengers!

Or, they just delete the messengers comments from their threads:

puhim deleted this comment of yours:

puhim says

Proof bellow you bottom feeding shallow DICK-WAD!

I think you may have inadvertently skipped over some of the text in your proof.

Things like:
"... it has not been determined that SV40 causes these cancers."

"The majority of scientific evidence suggests that SV40-contaminated vaccine did not cause cancer..."

"Polio vaccines being used today do not contain SV40."

"...the majority of studies done in the U.S. and Europe which compare persons who received SV40-contaminated polio vaccine with those who did not have shown no causal relationship between receipt of SV40-contaminated polio vaccine and cancer."

puhim says

Take your head out of your shitter and open your eyes! Blind fool.

What are you talking about? All I know is that I'm vaccinated against a large number of viruses that if I were to encounter would most likely be fatal.
Either way, this is the stupidest topic ever.

It's the strangest thing: whooping cough, scarlet fever, diphtheria, and measles all declined as the 20th Century wore on, and around the time that vaccines became more widespread.

Greenberg's quote is routinely abused by the idiots. He was not against vaccination, and was merely decrying media sensationalism surrounding the efficacy of the early polio vaccine. He actually welcomed the improvements in the polio vaccine.

Weirdly, polio virtually disappeared at the time these ineffective vaccines became widespread. But, then, correlation does not imply causation, so who knows?

And when Salk testified that the polio vaccine had been the primary cause of polio over a 25-year period, it was because that was damn near the only way you could get polio - person-to-person transmission had been nearly eliminated. If you see this factoid on an anti-vax site, you are reading the work of a scumbag idiot.

I have known since I was 7 that vaccination could give me the disease it's trying to prevent. However, at age 7, I was smart enough to understand that I was trading one risk for a much smaller one.

Do yourself a favor: you go down this anti-vax road, and you're in company with the 9-11 Truthers, the global warming denial moonbats, and the moon landing conspiracy folks.

edvard2 says

All I know is that I'm vaccinated against a large number of viruses that if I were to encounter would most likely be fatal.

By the way, so am I, and I did not mean to imply that my not taking annual flu vaccines means that I don't believe that kids should be vaccinated against
fatal or crippling diseases.

Autism now affects 1 in 88 children and 1 in 54 boys;

We are being poisoned, WAKE UP!

The FDA and CDC and other medical authorities report that only 1-10% of vaccine related adverse events are reported. In other words, 90-99% of vaccine injuries are unreported

http://www.aapsonline.org/testimony/mandvac.htm

Payouts for vaccine injuries for the 1% that actually get reported

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html#awardspaid

The CDC says that 5% - 15% of vaccinated children are not immune. They far outnumber the 1% - 2.5% of exempt children. In fact, exempt children may be immune without even getting sick.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/296/14/1757.full

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/about/terms/glossary.htm

Frankly, most of the 'best and brightest' do a horrible job of informed consent and apparently it is asking too much nowadays to make sure that vaccines aren't contaminated. As I stated earlier, 'best and brightest' is often a euphemism for 'mindless regurgitator' with no concept of nuance.

MMR says

The FDA and CDC and other medical authorities report that only 1-10% of vaccine related adverse events are reported. In other words, 90-99% of vaccine injuries are unreported

Autism now affects 1 in 88 children and 1 in 54 boys;

How's that for adverse effects.

MMR says

Frankly, most of the 'best and brightest' do a horrible job of informed consent and apparently it is asking too much nowadays to make sure that vaccines aren't contaminated. As I stated earlier, 'best and brightest' is often a euphemism for 'mindless regurgitator' with no concept of nuance.

Finally some common sense. Thank you.

California Pertussis outbreak of 2010

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22819634

Why was it that 91% of the kids getting vaccinated got sick? When are they actually going to start waiting until the kids are 2 years of age instead of hitting them with so many vaccines upfront?

Find me the evidence that Greenberg original assertion was refuted. still waiting for your sources. Maybe you could do us all a favor since you were so smart to realize that vaccines could give you a disease since you were 7. Real shame that you didn't go onto medical school to inform people of your intelligence

I guess that's one way of interpreting it. I interpreted it to mean that the people doing the research were being less than truthful.

Pretty sure it wasn't the media who was misusing statistical methods

http://www.hsl.unc.edu/specialcollections/exhibits/gillings/history-deans-4.cfm

I look forward to your sources to prove that he was 'downplaying media sensationalism'

HydroCabron says

Greenberg's quote is routinely abused by the idiots. He was not against vaccination, and was merely decrying media sensationalism surrounding the efficacy of the early polio vaccine. He actually welcomed the improvements in the polio vaccine.

MMR says

California Pertussis outbreak of 2010

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22819634

Why was it that 91% of the kids getting vaccinated got sick? When are they actually going to start waiting until the kids are 2 years of age instead of hitting them with so many vaccines upfront?

Find me the evidence that Greenberg original assertion was refuted. still waiting for your sources. Maybe you could do us all a favor since you were so smart to realize that vaccines could give you a disease since you were 7. Real shame that you didn't go onto medical school to inform people of your intelligence

May want to add that at least catching pertussis is a real possibility, but catching hepatitis B during childhood is close to impossible, yet they vaccinate babys as young as possible with the hep b vaccine, often against the will/knowledge of the parents as part of "general" immunizations.

http://www.safeminds.org/mercury/vaccines-and-autism.html

(note: it is not true that mercury has been removed from childhood vaccines, as it is still in most flu vaccines at 25 mcg as well as in 1 mcg amounts in other vaccines).

Another issue with immunization are the Th1/Th2 shifts induced by the adjuvants. It's hard to predict the cumulative effects, but there seems to be a link to neuro-immune and neuro-endocrine disorders.

mell says

Another issue with immunization are the Th1/Th2 shifts induced by the adjuvants. It's hard to predict the cumulative effects, but there seems to be a link to neuro-immune and neuro-endocrine disorders.

Yup. It's also a combined effort to poison the air, water and food.

Companies like Monsanto want to corner the entire food supply by throttling seed competition, even as they make poison chemicals for a living and call it food.

What about the use of immunizations here within europe?

Th2 shift is a suspected factor in autism.

If you want the REAL cause of the rise of autism in America, these links may give you a clue.

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/publish/news/newsroom/6164

http://www.livescience.com/36159-autism-flame-retardant-environment-gene-interaction.html

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/newscience/2012/05/2012-0702-pbdes-autism-environment-gene-link

The sick thing is that science has known that these chemicals are toxic for decades, yet allowed their manufacturers to push government into mandating their inclusion in everything from electronics to couches to baby clothing.
Smoking gun right here, and it's a flame retardant.

Quigley says

If you want the REAL cause of the rise of autism in America, these links may give you a clue.

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/publish/news/newsroom/6164

http://www.livescience.com/36159-autism-flame-retardant-environment-gene-interaction.html

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/newscience/2012/05/2012-0702-pbdes-autism-environment-gene-link

The sick thing is that science has known that these chemicals are toxic for decades, yet allowed their manufacturers to push government into mandating their inclusion in everything from electronics to couches to baby clothing.

Smoking gun right here, and it's a flame retardant.

Yeah that's one of the main research routes right now, the breakdown of the methylation cycle caused by various substances such as pbde. But not only toxins affect the methylation cycle, also pathogens and substances altering the immune balance/response. it's really complex, but once methylation is broken, all sorts of physical symptoms appear on the subacute level and because children cannot express themselves very well what can be observed mostly are protective mechanisms like "shutting in" to conserve energy and/or hide discomfort. Vit. B12 (methylcobalamin mainly) in combination with other supplements is one of the treatments routes to fix a broken methylation cycle.

I definitely need to read up on that. Thanks for heads up

mell says

Th2 shift is a suspected factor in autism.

This is the work of the 'better living through chemistry' crowd. Someone here recently said that chemical engineers would make better doctors. Better at passing exams and regurgitating, but not better at preventing illness.

Quigley says

If you want the REAL cause of the rise of autism in America, these links may give you a clue.

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/publish/news/newsroom/6164

http://www.livescience.com/36159-autism-flame-retardant-environment-gene-interaction.html

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/newscience/2012/05/2012-0702-pbdes-autism-environment-gene-link

The sick thing is that science has known that these chemicals are toxic for decades, yet allowed their manufacturers to push government into mandating their inclusion in everything from electronics to couches to baby clothing.

Smoking gun right here, and it's a flame retardant.

What about vit B6, C and SAM?

mell says

Vit. B12 (methylcobalamin mainly) in combination with other supplements is one of the treatments routes to fix a broken methylation cycle.

MMR says

What about vit B6, C and SAM?

mell says

Vit. B12 (methylcobalamin mainly) in combination with other supplements is one of the treatments routes to fix a broken methylation cycle.

Yeah, those are some of the "other supplements". It's just such a big topic that it would lead to crazy long posts ;) The other B vitamins, esp. B6 ensure better absorption of B12 so B12 should be taken in addition to a B complex. It's fascinating research I hope to get more into once I no longer have to depend on a day job. Most docs are completely clueless about the cutting edge research around supplements and unregulated drugs and suspected causes of chronic disorders such as Autism, CFS, FM, PVFS, ME, MS. Amy Yasko and R. van Konynenbourg have done great research and work on these topics, of course amongst many others. Maybe we can have a standing medical research thread here on patnet.