patrick.net

Dan8267 says

They aren't proof, but they are evidence. 46 calls and they all relate to black men? There are no suspicious white people?

Who is reporting that all 46 calls relate to black men? Link please.

Seriously, how many major facts have the media screwed up (or distorted) so far? Don't you think it would be prudent to step back a bit and stop fanning the flames and making accusations of racism that you can't back up with "facts"?

Dan8267 says

And although you might not think that there's sufficient reason to believe that Zimmerman was motivated by racial bigotry that day, there's a hell of a lot of Americans with no vested interest who do.

Alot of Americans think Obama is a Muslim or born outside our country too. Are you really pointing to the dumb lynch mob (who has been fed distorted information from the Media) as an excuse to accuse people of racism?

FFS - dude. Will you not be happy unless they begin race riots in Florida over this one sad case? It is completely irresponsible for our media and commenters to sensationalize this story and gin up race hatred the way they've done the past few weeks. Now the hype has been built up so high, we can only expect riots and violence if the evidence points to Zimmerman's innocence.

Why does this one case warrant so much hysteria and sensationalism while we hear absolutely nothing about all of the other murders that happened the same week, month or year? Is there an epidemic of hispanic neighborhood watch dudes shooting innocent people that requires this level of national attention?

Dan8267 says

Zimmerman had called 911, 46 times during those 15 months

I notice that the "esteem" Psychology Today is still reporting false information. The 46 calls spanned over 8 years, not 15 months.

Dan8267 says

OMG! Shaved heads are the white equivalent of hoodies! Watch out Mr. Clean!

I've got to give props to bacon for flipping that issue.

For me this is where racism enters this whole discussion. Whether or not Zimmerman is racist or racially profiled Martin is irrelevant to the situation. Basically, you don't need to explore Zimmerman's personal racism to come to the conclusion he did something wrong. Do I think Zimmerman behaved as he did out of racial bias? Yes. Do I think he did it because he hates black people? No.

Where racism enters into this discussion is in the fact that it is assumed by many that Martin must have been the aggressor and must have been doing something suspicious.

It's also in the fact that the assumption also exists that Martin had absolutely no grounds for feeling threatened by Zimmerman and than Martin had no personal right to self defense. Why should he be scared of a some random self proclaimed neighborhood watch captain? What possible reason could he have for feeling threatened by a stranger chasing him through the neighborhood?

The important thing to remember is that Zimmerman chased down someone who lived in the complex, effectively instigating and forcing a conflict, and then shot and killed that individual. If this is how Zimmerman acts in public toward his neighbors he has no business living around anyone or owning a firearm.

socal2 says

Dan8267 says

Zimmerman had called 911, 46 times during those 15 months

I notice that the "esteem" Psychology Today is still reporting false information. The 46 calls spanned over 8 years, not 15 months.

Reports on this seem to contradict. Some say months some say years.

Bap33 says

So, when some dude breaks into your home and rapes and dismembers your family, you are supposed to not hate him, but forgive him of his sins -- on the personal level -- but, for the good of society, the crimes committed must be accounted for and justice served.

Ah, but by that philosophy one should not take joy in the suffering of others, even those guilty of heinous crimes. And that's not what I get from social conservatives. They have orgasms at executions.

Also, if you actually believe in a magically just afterlife policed by an all-knowing cop, then there is no reason to punish people in this life. At most, you can deter crime and stop crimes in progress. But to punish a person for any reason but deterrence, and most evidence suggests that our punishments don't deter, would be immoral.

leoj707 says

Reports on this seem to contradict. Some say months some say years.

Perhaps a good reason not to "report" this information then?

leoj707 says

Reports on this seem to contradict. Some say months some say years.

At least we can all agree that there is a lot of misinformation floating out there about this case.

That's the problem with politicizing a criminal case. This should be treated as a criminal matter, not a political one.

My main concern is that if a Stand-Your-Ground defense is accepted then assholes who get in fights will kill their opponent simply to make sure only one side is told. That's a fundamental problem with Stand-Your-Ground.

socal2 says

leoj707 says

Reports on this seem to contradict. Some say months some say years.

Perhaps a good reason not to "report" this information then?

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/trayvon-martins-killer-was-looking-for-trouble-and-found-it/254815/
"We've just learned from the Sanford Police that there is evidently a typo on the first page of the neighborhood watch calls report they provided. The date range of Zimmerman's calls, they say, evidently is 2001-2012, not 2011-2012, which means his 46 calls came over a 10- to 11-year period -- roughly four calls per year -- and not four calls per month as the initial police statistics revealed."

leoj707 says

evidently a typo on the first page of the neighborhood watch calls report they provided

Good find. Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence.

There certainly is a lot of misinformation being reported about this case with all the news agencies and bloggers trying to report the news as fast as it happens. Not enough fact checking. I'll agree to that.

I suspect if we give the Sanford Police enough time we will discover that Trayvon Martin was armed with an AK-47 and a member of Al Qeada. These are good cops in Florida, let's give them more time to investigate. They caught a high school kid with marijuana residue on him for fuck's sake. Let's see Patrick's NorCal cops solve a crime like that.

socal2 says

Why does this one case warrant so much hysteria and sensationalism

Because people can not believe that Zimmerman hasn't been charged with anything.

Nobody is demanding that he be found guilty or convicted. But he needs to be tried.

Guess what ? If he had been charged and was awaiting trial, we wouldn't even be aware of the whole thing.

It is outrageous that he is free and hasn't been charged with any wrong doing.

That's what has caused all of the commotion. Well, that and also the perception that Florida has too many hillbilly racists to have the kind of normal justice system that would have charged Zimmerman with a crime.

marcus says

Guess what ? If he had been charged and was awaiting trial, we wouldn't even be aware of the whole thing.

right ... until the "not guilty" verdict came and then it's Rodney King all over again. The racebaitors do not want rule of law (just like Lord Barry), the racebaitors want rule by Bully Tribe. Note: Before modern weapons, Bully Tribe law was the law. When a weapon allowed a smaller, weaker, smarter person to defend himself the Bully Tribe system got weaker. This is why the progressive/liberal/left wants weapons to be removed from those who believe in Rule of Law. That will give the more agressive, less inhibited members of the Bully Tribe the advantage, putting America under Bully Tribe law. We can look to Africa, and how the Christians are treated there, for an idea of how Bully Tribe law works when weapons are taken from the people.

marcus says

Well, that and also the perception that Florida has too many hillbilly racists to have the kind of normal justice system that would have charged Zimmerman with a crime.

wow .... so much racism .... so much hate .... and you have access to young minds?? America is doomed if schools have many teachers like you and no filter at home to keep the kids minds right. Wow.

marcus says

It is outrageous that he is free and hasn't been charged with any wrong doing.

yea ... boy .... he just HAD to be in the wrong ... since he wasn't beat up enough to satisfy you? since the prowler lost the life fight? since the prowler was prepaired to attack and mame, but unprepaired to face an equalizing weapon? since the prowler was part of a speically protected class? You are rediculous.

Bap33 says

since he wasn't beat up enough to satisfy you?

omgbacon says

martin was a recent arrival to the community. personally, if I was in the same situation, I would consider being followed by a guy in an SUV and then chased on foot as at least creepy, if not threatening...especially if that individual appears white and has a shaved head.

Stand your ground

Doesn't anyone see a slight problem with a law which would protect either party from prosecution and in fact incentives each party to kill the other in order to minimize the legal repercussions?

I, for one, do not have a problem with any amount of beating Martin did to Zimmerman. Martin's a minor and a member of a minority that has been lynched and beaten for decades. Some big creepy guy in unmarked vehicle and a skinhead haircut follows Martin around. Martin tries to evade the guy, even calls a friend to tell her about this. The creepy dude keeps following him, then jumps out of the car and approaches Martin in a clear state of rage. And yes, we know that Zimmerman was steaming from the 911 call.

Hell, if I were in Martin's situation, I'd have shot Zimmerman the moment he approached me. And I'm white! I'd be thinking that Zimmerman wanted to sodomize me.

If Martin had had a gun and had used it to kill Zimmerman, he'd be using the stand-your-ground defense right now. How can both parties be legitimately standing their ground?

And if Zimmerman was beat up by a teen that was way smaller than him, that just means that Zimmerman is a pussy, too. Or perhaps that fear gets the adrenaline pumping faster than anger. In any case, it certainly would be reasonable for Martin to defend himself with his fists. He was the David being stalked by the Goliath.

Oh, and this happened at 7 p.m., not the middle of the night. It certainly is reasonable to be out at 7.

marcus says

Because people can not believe that Zimmerman hasn't been charged with anything.

Nobody is demanding that he be found guilty or convicted. But he needs to be tried.

I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with Marcus, but yes, this is the point.

I don't have a problem if the jury decides that Zimmerman isn't guilty. A lot of evidence with be presented by both sides in a trial, so we can't say what the outcome of the trial will be. And the most important evidence might not have even come out yet. The FBI is still investigating.

However, this case clearly calls for a trial. Just think about it from the point of view of Martin's family. Their 17-year-old child died. He had his entire life ahead of him: senior year prom, career, finding a nice woman and getting married, having kids, seeing the world. All those dreams and hopes he had are now snuffed out. His family deserves at least to see that our justice system values Martin's life enough to question whether or not his death was a crime. To fail to do so, is to say that Martin's life was cheap.

Bap33 says

right ... until the "not guilty" verdict came and then it's Rodney King all over again.

I agree that this is a possibility, but in this instance I don't think anyone in this forum would have a problem with a not-guilty verdict after a trial.

Case in point--->
Dan8267 says

I don't have a problem if the jury decides that Zimmerman isn't guilty.

And, remember the outcry on this forum about the Meserly verdict? Oh, wait... that's right there was none.

However, with the current evidence arguing that Zimmerman was some sort of neighborhood hero is using reasoning just a ridiculous as anyone who thinks rioting after the verdict would be justified.

To me, the more important issue, by far, is whether or not stand-your-ground can be used in defense of a situation that the accused instigated. If it can, we can expect much more violent street brawls.

University of Texas

Dan8267 says

But to punish a person for any reason but deterrence, and most evidence suggests that our punishments don't deter, would be immoral.

I disagree with this. In the case of violent crime, regardless of whether imprisonment deters the perpetrator from committing such crimes again after released, it takes them off the streets making the streets safer.

I also tend to be more okay than many liberals with executions, as long as there is a high degree of certainty in the conviction and for certain heinous violent crimes, including many but not all murders.

My reasoning is that for someone who has adapted to prison life, and can't handle life out on the streets, I just don't think going back to prison is a sufficient "worse case scenario" for their behavior (if they were for example to commit murder).

But this is not something I'm not interested in debating, just sharing my opinion.

I fully understand the other point of view. I just disagree with it.

Dan8267 says

Zimmerman called 911 46 times, always to report "suspicious" blacks. In the 911 call he made on the day he shot Martin, Zimmerman stated that "they [blacks] always get away". Yeah, I say that an objective person would consider Zimmerman to be a racist.

Now that you have more accurate info regarding the content and quantity of 911 calls, are you still going to allege Zimmerman is a racist?

If so, what is your new evidence?

marcus says

It is outrageous that he is free and hasn't been charged with any wrong doing.
That's what has caused all of the commotion. Well, that and also the perception that Florida has too many hillbilly racists to have the kind of normal justice system that would have charged Zimmerman with a crime.

There are far more egregious examples of criminals going free or repeat offenses that should warrant this level of national shit-storm as opposed to this manslaughter case. At least here in SoCal, I can think of numerous examples of Pedophiles getting out of jail early only to kill or rape more children. Yet these cases only warrant a local news story for a day or two. No marches, no comments from our President, no national story.

Even if you believe the very worst version of events against Zimmerman, it was Manslaughter at worse. No one is suggesting Zimmerman was out to rape or steal from Martin.

I think your second paragraph explains the sensationalism. The PC Media and race hustlers like Al Sharpton could not pass on an opportunity to go after "perceived" white red-necks with guns.

Take away the guns and race, and no one would care about this sad story.

socal2 says

Take away the guns and race, and no one would care about this sad story.

that is the most correct point made thus far. I support an armed population to protect themselves and me if needed.

@Dan,
you are correct, 7pm is not very late at night. That seems kinda early for a neighborhood watch patrol too. I wonder if there is a case of west-coast time stamp on the story? THat would make it 10ish, and that would match the early reports. But, the story details keep changing, and that makes it tuff. 7pm is not late for walking around in any area, and is pretty early for anti-crime patrol (unless the crimes in that area have been happening in the early evening)

socal2 says

Even if you believe the very worst version of events against Zimmerman, it was Manslaughter at worse.

No, the worst version of events would make Zimmerman guilty of first degree murder.

socal2 says

No one is suggesting Zimmerman was out to rape or steal from Martin.

Right.

Zimmerman was incredibly clever to induce the vic to attack him, punch him, knock him down, bang his head onto the concrete while telling him "I'm gonna kill you" etc.
The rumors that Tray was in fact a 12 year old alter boy testing his thug attire for a costume party are completely false.
His twitter picture giving the world the middle finger are completely misconstrued, he's saying "I'm number one", his index finger was just sore.

marcus says

streets making the streets safer.

Fine, deterrence and stopping them from repeating their crimes, but not for blood lust.

socal2 says

Now that you have more accurate info regarding the content and quantity of 911 calls, are you still going to allege Zimmerman is a racist?

If so, what is your new evidence?

Not new, old.

1. Zimmerman mutter "fucking coon" on the 911 call.
2. Zimmerman said they always get away.
3. Zimmerman was actively looking for blacks because he thought blacks were repeatedly burglarizing homes. Any black person in the neighborhood would be suspicious to Zimmerman.
4. He even called 911 unnecessary to report a suspicious 7-year-old black boy? Who the hell calls 911 to report suspicious 7-year-olds? And Zimmerman didn't say why he was suspicious of the boy, only that he was "concerned" for his "well being". Yeah, because a 7-year-old can really threaten your well being.
5. Zimmerman has equated being black while wearing a hoodie as being suspicious.
6. Zimmerman was way too pissed off during his 911 call to be simply concerned about suspicious behavior. The guy was seething with anger. This is not how a typical, rational community observer would behave. And there is no reason why mere "suspicion" would cause such rage.

Now, I could easily brush off one or two of these things. But there's a lot to imply racism here and it all adds up. It was never one thing that made me suspect Zimmerman is racist, but the whole picture of events.

More importantly than race, though, is the issue of stand-your-ground. I never bought that defense because Zimmerman instigated the situation.

Here's a except, and it's from Fox News, so you ultra-cons can accept it.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/21/neighborhood-watch-leader-may-have-uttered-racial-slur-before-shooting/

Earlier Tuesday, an attorney for Martin's family revealed the teenager told his girlfriend just moments before he was killed that he was being followed.

"'Oh he's right behind me, he's right behind me again,"' 17-year-old Trayvon Martin told his girlfriend on his cellphone, attorney Benjamin Crump said.

The girl later heard Martin say, "Why are you following me?" Another man asked, "What are you doing around here?"' Crump said.

Crump told reporters Tuesday Martin cried out when a man bearing a 9-mm. handgun came at him. Police said Zimmerman, who was found bleeding from his nose and the back of his head, told authorities he yelled out for help before shooting Martin.

"She absolutely blows Zimmerman's absurd self-defense claim out of the water," Crump said of Martin's girlfriend, whose name was withheld.

Martin, who was in town from Miami to visit his father in Sanford, called his 16-year-old girlfriend in Miami several times on Feb. 26, including just before the shooting, Crump said.

The discovery of the lengthy conversations, including one moments before the shooting, was made over the weekend by Martin's father, who checked his son's cell phone log, Crump said.

The teenager told the girl on his way back from the store he'd taken shelter from the rain briefly at an apartment building in his father's gated community, Crump said. Martin then told her he was being followed and would try to lose the person, Crump said.

"She says: `Run.' He says, `I'm not going to run, I'm just going to walk fast,"' Crump said, quoting the girl.

Fuck, it doesn't sound like Martin was the aggressor. He tried to walk away fast. He couldn't run, because a black guy running is "suspicious", so what else could he do?

If you were Martin, what the fuck would you do? The boy did everything he could to avoid a creepy stalker and still got shot. And now every conservative blames Martin saying he's a bad gangster who must have instigated the situation. No, he didn't. He was scared for his life, and rightfully so. Zimmerman should be arrested.

socal2 says

Take away the guns and race, and no one would care about this sad story.

There you are wrong.

welp, so you now have a "she says" vs "he says". Dan, you can't keep pushing for this to be a race based case and retain any form of credibility. Just let that part go, and lets move on. THe racebaitors are destroying any focus on law or justice.

I watch "bait car" and "cops". I have some idea how high "truth" is on their list.

Bap33, socal, etc.

Lets take race out of it.

Lets say you go for a walk after work tonight at 7pm, and that walk takes you out of your neighborhhod. Lets say you notice someone following you. You get an uneasy feeling so you try to avoid them, but after a few minutes, they confront you.

1. What are your thoughts right then? 2. Are you scared for your life or well being?

All you want to do is go on your way, but this guy makes it clear you aren't going anywhere. You are trapped. The confrontation turns physical.

3. Do you try to defend yourself? 4. If you do, what if you get the upper hand? 5. Have you committed a crime?

Lets say you do get the upper hand. You are on top. Lets say this guy pulls a gun and shoots you in the chest.

6. Was the shooting justified? 7. Were you murdered?

Now read it again knowing the guy following you was black. Are your answers to all of the above questions (1-7) exactly the same?

Bottom line, race or no race, there are undisputed facts in this case.

Zimmerman pursued Martin against the wishes of the police.
Martin had committed no crime that Zimmerman witnessed.
Martin is dead.
Zimmerman shot him.

I can see zero set of circumstances given those facts in which Zimmerman did not infringe on Martin's rights first by pursuing him, and second by shooting him.

Zimmerman took away Martin's right to Liberty and Life not only without authority to do so, but without cause.

Zimmerman murdered Martin. Period.

If he goes to prison at all, it will be the same as getting the death penalty. His chances of escaping prison justice are not high.

david1 says

Zimmerman pursued Martin against the wishes of the police.

Are you calling the operator a policeman, if so you are wrong. Are you saying the Neighborhood watchmen are not supposed to observe a prowler? If so, you are wrong. If a prowler changes locations, then it is be necessity that a watchmen must change locations too. Besides, Zim went back to his SUV to wait for police and the prowler jumped him there, at the SUV, where it had been parked, the end.

david1 says

Martin had committed no crime that Zimmerman witnessed.

Prowling is a crime
Peeping in windows is a crime
Casing an area looking for open car doors, easy grabbed radios or phones or ipods, bikes, yard orniments, unlocked windows, open garages, homes with signs of nobody being home (it was dinner time and dark, so no lights would indicate empty)
Criminals in the area match the prowlers discription - exactly.
Striking a person in the face on a public sidewalk is against the law
Pounding someones head into the sidewalk is against the law

It looks like Zim may have a few reasons you may have missed.

david1 says

If he goes to prison at all, it will be the same as getting the death penalty. His chances of escaping prison justice are not high.

ahhh yes, code for negro vengence in prison. That is pretty racist for you to suggest that Martin has connections in prison that Zim does not enjoy also. Dang.

Dan,
racial slur found to be not there. THe third leftist media outlet admitted today. THat means the three media outlets that fanned the flames of "race" have all admitted there was no race in play.
Game,
Set,
Match.

Racebaiters can go to hell.

The primary way race enters this is the fact that Zimmerman hasn't been charged. Yes, it is possible that it is extreme incompetence without any race factors, but that seems unlikely.

What kind of scumbags aren't bothered by systemic racism ?

Anyone who isn't severely retarded knows that Zimmerman is VERY LIKELY guilty of at least manslaughter. For the Baps of the world who want to argue this, I will acknowledge that it is possible (but not likely) that it is lack of intelligence and common sense rather than racism that leads them to their conclusion reflecting such a record breaking level of stupidity.(the truth is the two usually go hand in hand)

(just an observation Bap not name calling)

I don't know whether calling you a racist for your total inability to even begin to comprehend how wrong you are is worse than the level of stupidity it would take to not acknowledge that Zimmerman need to be charged and tried.

Bap33 says

Are you calling the operator a policeman

I am calling the 911 operator an agent of the police.

Bap33 says

Are you saying the Neighborhood watchmen are not supposed to observe a prowler?

Observe? No. Pursue and confront? Yes. Zim had no authority to pursue Martin.

Bap33 says

Prowling is a crime
Peeping in windows is a crime

Etc. I have seen not factual evidence this was the case. You would think someone else would have witnessed this type of behavior....especially if he was looking in windows...

You know? Nevermind. This is what I get for trying to have a discussion with a creationist.

Bap33 says

Dan, you can't keep pushing for this to be a race based case

I'm not saying that race should affect the sentence. I'm saying that it still appears that race is the motive. But let's say it's not.

Explain to me why Zimmerman was seething with anger at Martin if not for prejudice? Explain why Zimmerman thought that Martin was suspicious? What exactly did Martin do to arouse such suspicion and hatred in the first place? I can't answer either of those questions without the answer having something to do with skin tone.

If Martin were white, would Zimmerman had followed him and confronted him? I honestly cannot believe Zimmerman would have. Do you?

you are calling an operator an agent of the police?? explain what that means? I mean, I am pretty sure a neighborhood watchmen is an agent of the police too, then.

THe same number of people seen Zim pursue as did see the prowler peeping in windows. Exact same amount.

I enjoy a conversation. It's the racebaiting that bug me.

@marcus,
You ask that Zim be charged and tried. Well, when the cops hit the scene they took his weapon (that's a right suspended), they cuffed him (more rights suspended), and they took him in (more rights suspended) and questioned him without need of his lawyer. That means he did not claim the 5th, he did not scream for his lawyer, he just sat and answered the questions. THe on-scene cops interviewed those who were willing to speak to cops. (next may be unrelated - but) Have you no idea how few are willing to speak to cops in a high-crime area?

Anyways, my point on this is that Zim was not "charged" because the evidence did not support a need to charge him or hold him. If he were a flight risk, he would be held and bailed out, for a later court date. You do not give the on-scene police any credit, and you do not give the interviewing police any credit. Not to start a poop slinging event, but you went race-crazy right off the bat. That, I honestly think, made it tuff for you to see any facts other than the racial crap that the media complex was pumping out.

I understand manslaughter to be accidental death. That does not apply from what I have read about Zim's interview. Self-defense is the only claim he can make. Otherwise it is no less than M2, in my uneducated opinion.

Have a good day marcus. This wind is cold, so a warm/dry summer is coming.

Bap33 says

Prowling is a crime

#1 result from Google...

prowlingpresent participle of prowl (Verb)
Verb:

(of a person or animal) Move around (a place) in search of or as if in search of prey: "black bears prowl the canyons".
(of a person or animal) Move stealthily or restlessly as or like a hunter: "committee members prowling around the offices".

Not a crime. Martin didn't do anything illegal. And what's this about peeping? Where did that come from?

david1 says

Bottom line, race or no race, there are undisputed facts in this case.

Zimmerman pursued Martin against the wishes of the police.
Martin had committed no crime that Zimmerman witnessed.
Martin is dead.
Zimmerman shot him.

True. Even without race being an issue, this is at least manslaughter if not second degree murder. The only thing that makes race relevant is establishing motive. But the state of rage that Zimmerman was in during the 911 call certainly shows that he was open to committing bodily harm or murder.

Dan8267 says

Fuck, it doesn't sound like Martin was the aggressor. He tried to walk away fast. He couldn't run, because a black guy running is "suspicious", so what else could he do?

If you were Martin, what the fuck would you do?

No one seems to want to answer this question. I don't see what else Martin could have done to avoid the situation. So I don't see why he is to blame.

Dan8267 says

(1)Explain to me why Zimmerman was seething with anger at Martin if not for prejudice? (2)Explain why Zimmerman thought that Martin was suspicious? (3)What exactly did Martin do to arouse such suspicion and hatred in the first place?(4) I can't answer either of those questions without the answer having something to do with skin tone.

(1) No proof of Zim being angry on a personal level. Fear does effect breathing. Out of shape guys walking fast breath heavy too.

(2) Zim "may have" figured this prowler was no different than the last 20 bad guys doing business in the area. Out at dark, lurking, male, not from the area.

(3) See above. When a person walks like a duck, flys like a duck, and quacks, they sometimes may be mistaken for a duck.

(4) I had no trouble not mentioning any skin tones.