patrick.net

Dan,
racial slur found to be not there. THe third leftist media outlet admitted today. THat means the three media outlets that fanned the flames of "race" have all admitted there was no race in play.
Game,
Set,
Match.

Racebaiters can go to hell.

The primary way race enters this is the fact that Zimmerman hasn't been charged. Yes, it is possible that it is extreme incompetence without any race factors, but that seems unlikely.

What kind of scumbags aren't bothered by systemic racism ?

Anyone who isn't severely retarded knows that Zimmerman is VERY LIKELY guilty of at least manslaughter. For the Baps of the world who want to argue this, I will acknowledge that it is possible (but not likely) that it is lack of intelligence and common sense rather than racism that leads them to their conclusion reflecting such a record breaking level of stupidity.(the truth is the two usually go hand in hand)

(just an observation Bap not name calling)

I don't know whether calling you a racist for your total inability to even begin to comprehend how wrong you are is worse than the level of stupidity it would take to not acknowledge that Zimmerman need to be charged and tried.

Bap33 says

Are you calling the operator a policeman

I am calling the 911 operator an agent of the police.

Bap33 says

Are you saying the Neighborhood watchmen are not supposed to observe a prowler?

Observe? No. Pursue and confront? Yes. Zim had no authority to pursue Martin.

Bap33 says

Prowling is a crime
Peeping in windows is a crime

Etc. I have seen not factual evidence this was the case. You would think someone else would have witnessed this type of behavior....especially if he was looking in windows...

You know? Nevermind. This is what I get for trying to have a discussion with a creationist.

Bap33 says

Dan, you can't keep pushing for this to be a race based case

I'm not saying that race should affect the sentence. I'm saying that it still appears that race is the motive. But let's say it's not.

Explain to me why Zimmerman was seething with anger at Martin if not for prejudice? Explain why Zimmerman thought that Martin was suspicious? What exactly did Martin do to arouse such suspicion and hatred in the first place? I can't answer either of those questions without the answer having something to do with skin tone.

If Martin were white, would Zimmerman had followed him and confronted him? I honestly cannot believe Zimmerman would have. Do you?

you are calling an operator an agent of the police?? explain what that means? I mean, I am pretty sure a neighborhood watchmen is an agent of the police too, then.

THe same number of people seen Zim pursue as did see the prowler peeping in windows. Exact same amount.

I enjoy a conversation. It's the racebaiting that bug me.

@marcus,
You ask that Zim be charged and tried. Well, when the cops hit the scene they took his weapon (that's a right suspended), they cuffed him (more rights suspended), and they took him in (more rights suspended) and questioned him without need of his lawyer. That means he did not claim the 5th, he did not scream for his lawyer, he just sat and answered the questions. THe on-scene cops interviewed those who were willing to speak to cops. (next may be unrelated - but) Have you no idea how few are willing to speak to cops in a high-crime area?

Anyways, my point on this is that Zim was not "charged" because the evidence did not support a need to charge him or hold him. If he were a flight risk, he would be held and bailed out, for a later court date. You do not give the on-scene police any credit, and you do not give the interviewing police any credit. Not to start a poop slinging event, but you went race-crazy right off the bat. That, I honestly think, made it tuff for you to see any facts other than the racial crap that the media complex was pumping out.

I understand manslaughter to be accidental death. That does not apply from what I have read about Zim's interview. Self-defense is the only claim he can make. Otherwise it is no less than M2, in my uneducated opinion.

Have a good day marcus. This wind is cold, so a warm/dry summer is coming.

Bap33 says

Prowling is a crime

#1 result from Google...

prowlingpresent participle of prowl (Verb)
Verb:

(of a person or animal) Move around (a place) in search of or as if in search of prey: "black bears prowl the canyons".
(of a person or animal) Move stealthily or restlessly as or like a hunter: "committee members prowling around the offices".

Not a crime. Martin didn't do anything illegal. And what's this about peeping? Where did that come from?

david1 says

Bottom line, race or no race, there are undisputed facts in this case.

Zimmerman pursued Martin against the wishes of the police.
Martin had committed no crime that Zimmerman witnessed.
Martin is dead.
Zimmerman shot him.

True. Even without race being an issue, this is at least manslaughter if not second degree murder. The only thing that makes race relevant is establishing motive. But the state of rage that Zimmerman was in during the 911 call certainly shows that he was open to committing bodily harm or murder.

Dan8267 says

Fuck, it doesn't sound like Martin was the aggressor. He tried to walk away fast. He couldn't run, because a black guy running is "suspicious", so what else could he do?

If you were Martin, what the fuck would you do?

No one seems to want to answer this question. I don't see what else Martin could have done to avoid the situation. So I don't see why he is to blame.

Dan8267 says

(1)Explain to me why Zimmerman was seething with anger at Martin if not for prejudice? (2)Explain why Zimmerman thought that Martin was suspicious? (3)What exactly did Martin do to arouse such suspicion and hatred in the first place?(4) I can't answer either of those questions without the answer having something to do with skin tone.

(1) No proof of Zim being angry on a personal level. Fear does effect breathing. Out of shape guys walking fast breath heavy too.

(2) Zim "may have" figured this prowler was no different than the last 20 bad guys doing business in the area. Out at dark, lurking, male, not from the area.

(3) See above. When a person walks like a duck, flys like a duck, and quacks, they sometimes may be mistaken for a duck.

(4) I had no trouble not mentioning any skin tones.

I think the cops didn't charge Zimmerman because they didn't have enough evidence. Perhaps the cops would have charged Zimmerman later if the story hadn't exploded in the media. Sometimes, the police need time to gather evidence before charging a person. But we will never know now if that's the case. Now it's in the FBI's hands.

I certainly hope that Florida's Stand-Your-Ground law isn't applied to altercations started by the "defender". That would be really bad as I mentioned before.

Bap, I think you need to differentiate between evidence and proof. Proof is absolute and indisputable. Evidence suggests things and it's weight is cumulative.

I think you are misunderstanding the arguments made by others in this thread. We're not saying that Zimmerman should be convicted because there is indisputable proof. We're saying that he should be arrested because there is sufficient evidence that a crime was committed. There's a big difference there.

I've already said that if a jury finds him not guilty, I'm OK with that. The only thing I'm not OK with is Zimmerman's claim that he is an innocent person who had to stand his ground. He went out of his way to put himself in the position where he killed Martin. That's not exactly victimization.

Now, I've listened to the 911 call and Zimmerman is clearly mad as hell that "they" always get away.

What is assertion is that Martin was lurking and prowling. He was walking on a public sidewalk, buying food at a public store. To assert that Martin was intending to burglarize a house is complete conjecture with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

Does Martin's fingerprints match any from any burglary crime scene? Does Martin's face match any surveillance video of burglaries. Does Martin have a criminal record, particularly one involving burglary? The answer to all of these is no.

So why is Martin so suspicious? He's a black guy in a hoodie. Even Geraldo is saying black men should not wear hoodies. Well, maybe in Martin's case a hoodie was just a hoodie. It seems that a lot of people see a black young man in a hoodie as a thug. And that is just a little bit prejudice.

Of course, if my idea of having cameras on guns were implemented, we wouldn't be having this conversation because we would know exactly what happened.

With cameras on guns, lawful people could carry without fear.

Bap33 says

Racebaiters can go to hell.

http://www.v5Jh3PpvBk0

There should be a Law that only Liberals can be Policemen.
That way, we kill two bids with one stone. LITERALLY!

"Racebaiter" is code for "yes I'm a racist, but if you bring it up I'll call you a racebaiter."

marcus says

"Racebaiter" is code for "yes I'm a racist, but if you bring it up I'll call you a racebaiter."

That's Code for Marcus is a Race baiting Moron. And clearly not very creative with Photo shop, I expect better out of you pal. Where's your race baiting Photoshopped picture to accompany your baseless assertion?

Well go get it, I'll wait...

In order to be a race baiter, you have to deliberately try to deceive someone into thinking that race is an issue where it is not. Although such people exist, I have not seen any postings that lead me to believe anyone on patrick.net is race baiting.

The postings that do deal with race appear, as far as I can tell, to be genuine and honest appraisals. Now, I can't be 100% sure that someone isn't lying, except for myself. And I am absolutely sure, that I do not believe the above stickers were made by race baiters and that those particular stickers are racist and moronic.

Since this is an election year, stickers like the ones above are news. If this is the campaign that Republican voters are going to run -- the politicians sure won't -- then Romney is going to lose.

As I've always said, the Republicans need to lay off b.s. issues on Obama like his birth certificate and being a secret Muslim and address real issues. They aren't doing that.

Romney is correct when he said Obama failed to fix the economy, but Romney's plan is a utter failure too. Cutting the taxes of the richest 1% and deregulating is exactly what got us into this depression and created the income gap we have today. Of course, Obama's not doing anything to fix the economy either. Eventually, the banks will have bled enough of our money through inflation and low interest rates that the depression will end, sometime between 2016 and 2020.

CaptainShuddup says

Well go get it, I'll wait...

As usual tpb, I can't comprehend you.

I was just making the observation that it's the racists that:

1) refuse to admit, "yeah you're right charge zimmerman."

2) Say that that kind of racism that would lead to police NOT charging Zimmerman with manslaughter or worse (of a black teen) does not exist.

3) Calls those who say it does still exist, and probably was the reason for cops not charging zimmerman, "racebaiter."

What a joke.

Dan8267 says

In order to be a race baiter, you have to deliberately try to deceive someone into thinking that race is an issue where it is not.

O.K. you can have the big Panda or the Mirror K.C. and the Sunshine band plaque.

Bap33 says

When a person walks like a duck, flys like a duck, and quacks, they sometimes may be mistaken for a duck.

But it's still illegal to shoot the person even if you think he's a duck.

Dan8267 says

But it's still illegal to shoot the person even if you think he's a duck.

Well, unless you're the vice president.

OK Here's the Proof, the FACTS to support my assertion, that if blacks were to beat down a white guy it would not be a hate crime.

"Die Cracker Die!"

A 78-year-old Ohio man says he was a victim of a hate crime when he was severely beaten by group of youths -- who allegedly said "this is for Trayvon," referring to the unarmed black Florida teen killed by a neighborhood watch volunteer.

The man, Dallas Watts of East Toledo, told police he was walking home Saturday afternoon when he was confronted by six youths, both white and black, ages 11 to 17, FoxToledo.com reports. One of the youths allegedly said "take him down."

Watts said he told the youths, "Why me? Remember Trayvon." He told FoxToledo.com that he meant it in a "peaceful way," since he had nothing to do with the Florida killing. But police suggest the youths may have misinterpreted Watts' words as threatening.

"[Get] that white [man]. This is for Trayvon ... Trayvon lives, white [man]. Kill that white [man]," the boys are quoted as saying in a police report cited by the Toledo Blade.

Three of the six youths have been charged in the case, but police interviews didn't yield enough evidence to support hate crime charges, FoxToledo.com reported.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/05/trayvon-martin-case-looms-over-beating-78-year-old-ohio-man/?test=latestnews#content#ixzz1rDitWbJn

Bap33 says

THe same number of people seen Zim pursue as did see the prowler peeping in windows. Exact same amount.

Let me make a clear and distinct point to you. No one has to have seen Zimmerman pursuing Martin because there is other evidence that supports this. Martin's body was found in the back yard of two residences away from the street. Zimmerman was in his car talking to the 911 operator and five minutes later when the police arrived, Martin is shot dead nowhere near his car.

Here is the police report.

http://mit.zenfs.com/102/2012/04/69081607-29132322.pdf

Notice where it states Martin's body was found - In between 1231 Twin Trees Ln. and 2821 Retreat View Circle. If you put those two addresses into google maps, you will notice that the back yards of each back up to one another.

Are you following yet? In order for Martin's body to get into the backyard between two residences, Zimmerman had to pursue him there. Zim was in his car, which is on the street. He shots Zimmerman in the backyard. By definition he had to pursue him there. Unless you are claiming Martin pulled him out of his car and into the backyard. Is that what you are claiming?

Bap33 says

you are calling an operator an agent of the police?? explain what that means? I mean, I am pretty sure a neighborhood watchmen is an agent of the police too, then.

Definition of AGENT:
one who is authorized to act for or in the place of another: as a representative, emissary, or official of a government.

A 911 operator is authorized by the police to act in their place while dealing with emergency calls on the telephone. Zimmerman was not authorized by the police to act on their behalf. A 911 operator is granted some authority, Zimmerman is not.

See the difference?

CaptainShuddup says

OK Here's the Proof, the FACTS to support my assertion, that if blacks were to beat down a white guy it would not be a hate crime.

From the article.

Three of the six youths have been charged in the case, but police interviews didn't yield enough evidence to support hate crime charges, FoxToledo.com reported.

The article just says that in this one particular case the police did not believe they had sufficient evidence to charge the youths with a hate crime, but three of them were charged with crimes.

As to why the police didn't have enough evidence or how close they got, the article doesn't say. It simply does not go into sufficient detail for me to render an opinion of whether or not the police did due diligence. However, when was the last time police discriminated in favor of African Americans?

If everything the victim said could be collaborated, then I'd say the crime qualifies as a hate crime. But I can't tell what evidence the police have this article.

david1 says

In between 1231 Twin Trees Ln. and 2821 Retreat View Circle.

Yep. Martin was retreating and Zimmerman was following. That's not standing your ground. That's taking ground.

if blacks were to beat down a white guy it would not be a hate crime.

The black guy will get arrest for sure.

If Zimmerman is black and Martin is white, Zimmerman will get arrest.
We will not talk about this right now.

It is clearly unfair for black people.

Edit: corrected :)

xenogear3 says

Dan8267 says

if blacks were to beat down a white guy it would not be a hate crime.

Um, it wasn't me who said that. Your citing incorrectly.

david1 says

A 911 operator is granted some authority, Zimmerman is not.

you are wrong here. May want to recheck facts.

The prowler was caught prowling and attacked. Prowlers do their work in odd locations. Not much else to say there. Had the ativity taken place in the front yard of Martin's home, then there would be an issue.

@Dan,
you are correct about the duck thing.

I heard on MAIN STREAM MEDIA this morning that Trayvon was on the street because he was suspended from school...he wasn't a Choir boy. That he was a football player at his school...he wasn't a little, weak, kid. That he was 6' 3" tall...6 inches taller than Zimmerman.

Why is the media trying to race bait this issue??? Are their ratings so terrible that they have to stoop so low as to manufacture falsehoods to raise their ratings ???

Would Bernard Getz have let his skull get bashed in, or would he have defended himself?

Honest Abe says

I heard on MAIN STREAM MEDIA this morning that Trayvon was on the street because he was suspended from school.

?? this makes not sense. What does a school suspension have to do with being on a street at night?

Also, Trayvon's suspension record has already been discussed at length in this thread. This is not new news to us.

Honest Abe says

That he was a football player at his school...he wasn't a little, weak, kid. That he was 6' 3" tall...6 inches taller than Zimmerman.

So... open season on anyone you see taller than you?

Zimmerman has a history of violence and confrontations with others. Trayvon did not. It is unlikely that Trayvon initiated a violent confrontation.

What evidence do you have that "it is unlikely" that Trayvon initiated a violent confrontation.

Isn't the word "unlikely" rather subjective?

BTW, If you had a 6'3" football player on top of you, at night, bashing your head in...what would you do? Seriously -give me a straight answer to that.

leoj707 says

?? this makes not sense. What does a school suspension have to do with being on a street at night?

He was with his dad, visiting relatives, on a weekend. AFAIK, no public schools operate on Weekends.

I love the desperate attempts by White Whines to smear Trayvon. The kid had no history of violence and his suspensions were all for routine dumb kid shit.

Whereas we know that Zimmerman had violence in his background: Two confirmed Charges for violent crimes, mysteriously dropped, plus an unsubstantiated report of being fired for over the top zealousness as a security guard. The latter won't be confirmed until this case goes to trial, because the security company would fear a lawsuit if they released the information to the public. His inability to get accepted at any Police Academy when it was a lifetime goal also infers some reservations about his behavior.

Honest Abe says

BTW, If you had a 6'3" football player on top of you, at night, bashing your head in...what would you do? Seriously -give me a straight answer to that.

He looks more like a kicker than a quarterback. Kid has a lanky, gawky body type. And Zimmerman followed Tray, not Tray followed Zimmerman.

Honest Abe says

What evidence do you have that "it is unlikely" that Trayvon initiated a violent confrontation.

Have you been reading this entire thread? Please do for more detail, but the basics:

1. Based on the current evidence Zimmerman's story seems to be likely a fabrication, in part or entirely.

2. Zimmerman has a history of violence and stalking others.
a. Domestic violence
b. Fired from security job for being too aggressive
c. Assaulting a police officer
d. Following another driver after a road-rage incident
e. etc. I think I am forgetting something you can read the thread for other examples of his history

3. Trayvon has no violent history

4. Zimmerman pursued Trayvon

5. Zimmerman was not the person calling for help that night (as was his story); so the person calling for help was probably Trayvon

Yes, based on what we know so far I think that it is unlikely Trayvon instigated any violence that night.

Honest Abe says

Isn't the word "unlikely" rather subjective?

It means that while I think that it is possible that Trayvon was the instigator of violence he probably was not.

Honest Abe says

BTW, If you had a 6'3" football player on top of you, at night, bashing your head in...what would you do? Seriously -give me a straight answer to that.

You mean after I had stalked him and confronted him while he was out for a night time stroll and then tried to detain him? Is he crying for help during this time? Are the blows he is raining down on me light enough as to leave no marks? Am I a much shorter man with an aggressive authority complex? Do I feel emboldened by having the power of a gun in my pocket?

thunderlips11 says

He looks more like a kicker than a quarterback. Kid has a lanky, gawky body type.

Yep, he did not have the countenance of a fearsome brute.

Honest Abe says

What evidence do you have that "it is unlikely" that Trayvon initiated a violent confrontation.

Isn't the word "unlikely" rather subjective?

WE know that Martin was where he was supposed to be. He was staying in the gated community with his fathers Fiance. Maybe in his past experience he had lived places where he was permitted to be out and around the neighborhood at 7PM without anyone thinking that's suspicious.

We actually have no idea what precipitated the shooting. All we know for certain is Zimmerman's history, that he thought Martin looked suspicious, and that he followed him and ultimately confronted him.

It's reasonable to assume that Martin would have been motivated by fear if he did in fact beat up on Zimmerman. And it may be that Zimmerman tried to hold MArtin for police, something that was not his right if Zimmerman wasn't doing anything wrong.

(note: that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been wise for Martin to submit to Zimmerman - but it also doesn't mean that Zimmerman didn't commit murder)

Honest Abe says

Why is the media trying to race bait this issue???

Abe doesn't even see race he is so far above being racist that even now he is not aware that race could have anything to do with Zimmerman's perception of MArtin as suspicious, or with Zimmerman's not being charged with anything (and given a fair trial).

Anyone who even suggests such a thing is "racebaiting."

Right.

Marcus - yep, its reasonable to A.S.S.U.M.E. Thats an acrynom for something, isn't it?

Your are correct, I judge people by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin...but that's not what the media is doing- is it?

How many black males got shot dead TODAY, somewhere in America, by another black male?

Where's the screaming headlines? Just askin.

Honest Abe says

How many black males got shot dead TODAY, somewhere in America, by another black male?

Where's the screaming headlines? Just askin.

Your logic is too good for me. That proves that race was not a factor in Zimmerman following Martin, and that it wasn't a factor in Zimmerman not being arrested.

What was I thinking ?

Honest Abe says

yep, its reasonable to A.S.S.U.M.E. Thats an acrynom for something, isn't it?

Acronym? No. The saying is "to assume makes an ass out of u and me".

Marcus...I GET IT!! Zimmerman is guilty of ThoughtCrime.

He was THINKING: "I don't like this BLACK MAN bashing my head in so I guess I'll just shoot him".

Lets bring in the ThoughtPolice and get this matter solved once and for all! Case closed.

Honest Abe says

He was THINKING: "I don't like this BLACK MAN bashing my head in so I guess I'll just shoot him".

OBviously you are one of the idiots that thinks Zimmerman should be tried (in your case defended) here on the internet.

I'm only saying he needs to be charged so that he can be given a fair trial.

He shot and killed a man !

Why would you argue this Abe ? Does your "I only see the content of a man's character," have you confused ?

marcus says

I'm only saying he needs to be charged so that he can be given a fair trial.

A week or so ago you called Zim a murdering racist. It was back when Spike Lee was doing what he could to get a lynch mod to Zim's house to win the bounty for his head that the Black Panthers have in place. Your new position is easier for me to support. If he is charged with a possible crime in connection with his self defense claim, then a fair trail is a fair request.

In order to charge him with murder or manslaughter it has to be reasonable to believe that he may have indeed committed such a crime.

The fact that I think it is at least manslaughter (this was asserted as an opinion) is directly tied to how outrageous I think it is that he wasn't even charged. And yes I still think it likely that race was a factor in Zimmerman following MArtin, his thinking he was suspicious, and in the police not charging him.

Bap33 says

It was back when Spike Lee was doing what he could to get a lynch mod to Zim's house to win the bounty for his head that the Black Panthers have in place.

All of this was done out of outrage over the injustice of his not even being charged. I understand why you are not able to comprehend that.

It's the same reason why you confuse arguing that someone is POTENTIALLY guilty enough that they should be charged, with an argument that they are so guilty that they don't even need to be charged and cshould be executed now.

MY position isn't new. It's just clarified because I realized that the distinction in the previous paragraph was one you were blind to for some reason.

What happened ? The Easter weekend help you realize you should stop trolling this thread ? What is it, you get some religion ?

http://www.O2cCuadivpE

marcus says

Bap33 says

It was back when Spike Lee was doing what he could to get a lynch mod to Zim's house to win the bounty for his head that the Black Panthers have in place.

marcus said: All of this was done out of outrage over the injustice of his not even being charged. I understand why you are not able to comprehend that.

to be clear ... Zim being outraged by the crime in his area being carried out by young negro men has no value, but attempted murder by Spike and killer for hire by Black Panthers is no biggie ... that's your position?