patrick.net

david1 says

A 911 operator is granted some authority, Zimmerman is not.

you are wrong here. May want to recheck facts.

The prowler was caught prowling and attacked. Prowlers do their work in odd locations. Not much else to say there. Had the ativity taken place in the front yard of Martin's home, then there would be an issue.

@Dan,
you are correct about the duck thing.

I heard on MAIN STREAM MEDIA this morning that Trayvon was on the street because he was suspended from school...he wasn't a Choir boy. That he was a football player at his school...he wasn't a little, weak, kid. That he was 6' 3" tall...6 inches taller than Zimmerman.

Why is the media trying to race bait this issue??? Are their ratings so terrible that they have to stoop so low as to manufacture falsehoods to raise their ratings ???

Would Bernard Getz have let his skull get bashed in, or would he have defended himself?

Honest Abe says

I heard on MAIN STREAM MEDIA this morning that Trayvon was on the street because he was suspended from school.

?? this makes not sense. What does a school suspension have to do with being on a street at night?

Also, Trayvon's suspension record has already been discussed at length in this thread. This is not new news to us.

Honest Abe says

That he was a football player at his school...he wasn't a little, weak, kid. That he was 6' 3" tall...6 inches taller than Zimmerman.

So... open season on anyone you see taller than you?

Zimmerman has a history of violence and confrontations with others. Trayvon did not. It is unlikely that Trayvon initiated a violent confrontation.

What evidence do you have that "it is unlikely" that Trayvon initiated a violent confrontation.

Isn't the word "unlikely" rather subjective?

BTW, If you had a 6'3" football player on top of you, at night, bashing your head in...what would you do? Seriously -give me a straight answer to that.

leoj707 says

?? this makes not sense. What does a school suspension have to do with being on a street at night?

He was with his dad, visiting relatives, on a weekend. AFAIK, no public schools operate on Weekends.

I love the desperate attempts by White Whines to smear Trayvon. The kid had no history of violence and his suspensions were all for routine dumb kid shit.

Whereas we know that Zimmerman had violence in his background: Two confirmed Charges for violent crimes, mysteriously dropped, plus an unsubstantiated report of being fired for over the top zealousness as a security guard. The latter won't be confirmed until this case goes to trial, because the security company would fear a lawsuit if they released the information to the public. His inability to get accepted at any Police Academy when it was a lifetime goal also infers some reservations about his behavior.

Honest Abe says

BTW, If you had a 6'3" football player on top of you, at night, bashing your head in...what would you do? Seriously -give me a straight answer to that.

He looks more like a kicker than a quarterback. Kid has a lanky, gawky body type. And Zimmerman followed Tray, not Tray followed Zimmerman.

Honest Abe says

What evidence do you have that "it is unlikely" that Trayvon initiated a violent confrontation.

Have you been reading this entire thread? Please do for more detail, but the basics:

1. Based on the current evidence Zimmerman's story seems to be likely a fabrication, in part or entirely.

2. Zimmerman has a history of violence and stalking others.
a. Domestic violence
b. Fired from security job for being too aggressive
c. Assaulting a police officer
d. Following another driver after a road-rage incident
e. etc. I think I am forgetting something you can read the thread for other examples of his history

3. Trayvon has no violent history

4. Zimmerman pursued Trayvon

5. Zimmerman was not the person calling for help that night (as was his story); so the person calling for help was probably Trayvon

Yes, based on what we know so far I think that it is unlikely Trayvon instigated any violence that night.

Honest Abe says

Isn't the word "unlikely" rather subjective?

It means that while I think that it is possible that Trayvon was the instigator of violence he probably was not.

Honest Abe says

BTW, If you had a 6'3" football player on top of you, at night, bashing your head in...what would you do? Seriously -give me a straight answer to that.

You mean after I had stalked him and confronted him while he was out for a night time stroll and then tried to detain him? Is he crying for help during this time? Are the blows he is raining down on me light enough as to leave no marks? Am I a much shorter man with an aggressive authority complex? Do I feel emboldened by having the power of a gun in my pocket?

thunderlips11 says

He looks more like a kicker than a quarterback. Kid has a lanky, gawky body type.

Yep, he did not have the countenance of a fearsome brute.

Honest Abe says

What evidence do you have that "it is unlikely" that Trayvon initiated a violent confrontation.

Isn't the word "unlikely" rather subjective?

WE know that Martin was where he was supposed to be. He was staying in the gated community with his fathers Fiance. Maybe in his past experience he had lived places where he was permitted to be out and around the neighborhood at 7PM without anyone thinking that's suspicious.

We actually have no idea what precipitated the shooting. All we know for certain is Zimmerman's history, that he thought Martin looked suspicious, and that he followed him and ultimately confronted him.

It's reasonable to assume that Martin would have been motivated by fear if he did in fact beat up on Zimmerman. And it may be that Zimmerman tried to hold MArtin for police, something that was not his right if Zimmerman wasn't doing anything wrong.

(note: that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been wise for Martin to submit to Zimmerman - but it also doesn't mean that Zimmerman didn't commit murder)

Honest Abe says

Why is the media trying to race bait this issue???

Abe doesn't even see race he is so far above being racist that even now he is not aware that race could have anything to do with Zimmerman's perception of MArtin as suspicious, or with Zimmerman's not being charged with anything (and given a fair trial).

Anyone who even suggests such a thing is "racebaiting."

Right.

Marcus - yep, its reasonable to A.S.S.U.M.E. Thats an acrynom for something, isn't it?

Your are correct, I judge people by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin...but that's not what the media is doing- is it?

How many black males got shot dead TODAY, somewhere in America, by another black male?

Where's the screaming headlines? Just askin.

Honest Abe says

How many black males got shot dead TODAY, somewhere in America, by another black male?

Where's the screaming headlines? Just askin.

Your logic is too good for me. That proves that race was not a factor in Zimmerman following Martin, and that it wasn't a factor in Zimmerman not being arrested.

What was I thinking ?

Honest Abe says

yep, its reasonable to A.S.S.U.M.E. Thats an acrynom for something, isn't it?

Acronym? No. The saying is "to assume makes an ass out of u and me".

Marcus...I GET IT!! Zimmerman is guilty of ThoughtCrime.

He was THINKING: "I don't like this BLACK MAN bashing my head in so I guess I'll just shoot him".

Lets bring in the ThoughtPolice and get this matter solved once and for all! Case closed.

Honest Abe says

He was THINKING: "I don't like this BLACK MAN bashing my head in so I guess I'll just shoot him".

OBviously you are one of the idiots that thinks Zimmerman should be tried (in your case defended) here on the internet.

I'm only saying he needs to be charged so that he can be given a fair trial.

He shot and killed a man !

Why would you argue this Abe ? Does your "I only see the content of a man's character," have you confused ?

marcus says

I'm only saying he needs to be charged so that he can be given a fair trial.

A week or so ago you called Zim a murdering racist. It was back when Spike Lee was doing what he could to get a lynch mod to Zim's house to win the bounty for his head that the Black Panthers have in place. Your new position is easier for me to support. If he is charged with a possible crime in connection with his self defense claim, then a fair trail is a fair request.

In order to charge him with murder or manslaughter it has to be reasonable to believe that he may have indeed committed such a crime.

The fact that I think it is at least manslaughter (this was asserted as an opinion) is directly tied to how outrageous I think it is that he wasn't even charged. And yes I still think it likely that race was a factor in Zimmerman following MArtin, his thinking he was suspicious, and in the police not charging him.

Bap33 says

It was back when Spike Lee was doing what he could to get a lynch mod to Zim's house to win the bounty for his head that the Black Panthers have in place.

All of this was done out of outrage over the injustice of his not even being charged. I understand why you are not able to comprehend that.

It's the same reason why you confuse arguing that someone is POTENTIALLY guilty enough that they should be charged, with an argument that they are so guilty that they don't even need to be charged and cshould be executed now.

MY position isn't new. It's just clarified because I realized that the distinction in the previous paragraph was one you were blind to for some reason.

What happened ? The Easter weekend help you realize you should stop trolling this thread ? What is it, you get some religion ?

http://www.O2cCuadivpE

marcus says

Bap33 says

It was back when Spike Lee was doing what he could to get a lynch mod to Zim's house to win the bounty for his head that the Black Panthers have in place.

marcus said: All of this was done out of outrage over the injustice of his not even being charged. I understand why you are not able to comprehend that.

to be clear ... Zim being outraged by the crime in his area being carried out by young negro men has no value, but attempted murder by Spike and killer for hire by Black Panthers is no biggie ... that's your position?

Bap33 says

Zim being outraged by the crime in his area being carried out by young negro men has no value, but attempted murder by Spike and killer for hire by Black Panthers is no biggie ... that's your position?

I never said anything about any of these. You forgot to bring in the word prowler again.

It would be as if I wanted to talk about democrats versus republican on taxes, and you were totally unable to even enter the conversation except to assert, "all I know is those same democrats are in favor gay marriage."

One thing at a time man.

IF some prominent figure at one moment of emotion said something stupid, so ? Jackson and others have condemned what the "New Black Panthers" (all six of them) have said, and leaders of the real Black Panthers and others have disassociated themselves from them and their use of that name.

http://www.blackpanther.org/newsalert.htm

Why can't you understand why emotions run so high with some African Americans over this ? Instead of beginning to see the source of their emotion, all you can do is react to their reaction.

What about the original thing they were reacting to ? Why so hard for you to appreciate that. Sad to say I know the answer.

But can you at least consider the question ?

marcus says

Zim being outraged by the crime in his area being carried out by young negro men has no value

I will acknowledge that Zimmerman may have been very very very stupid, or even semi retarded, possibly unable to tell the difference between a 1 in 100 chance versus a 50 50 chance. (of Martin being a criminal just because he was black). But none the less, it's still racism. That's really all racism is (stupidity and ignorance).

OF course on top of being not so bright, evidence of his history suggests emotional challenges. This is also suggested by his following Martin and possibly confronting him or trying to detain him.

marcus says

Why can't you understand why emotions run so high with some African Americans over this ? Instead

because I firmly belive in treating all people equal no matter the color of their skin. I am not a racist. A racist looks at the skin color and then decides what atitude or action is acceptable. I disagree with being a racist and doing that. So, no free pass for the racebaitors, sorry.

you allowfor outrage from one, and not the other, based ONLY on race. That is a bad situation, in my opinion.

Bap33 says

I disagree with being a racist and doing that. So, no free pass for the racebaitors, sorry

Okay, well, I'm not mad at you Bap, you can't help it.

Bap33 says

you allowfor outrage from one, and not the other, based ONLY on race. That is a bad situation, in my opinion.

I'm assuming that if you had a coherent point to make you would have made it ?

I allow for people (myself included ) being outrage that Zimmerman wasn't charged with a crime.

And yes I don't have particular outrage against individuals who make fools of them self over this, nor do I have a problem with you being outraged over their momentary expression being picked up and magnified by the right wing media.

But newsflash: When you can't comment intelligently about an issue without constantly twisting it around and focusing only on what a few of the most emotional unfortunate comments wereabout it, or without being defensive of Zimmerman, it shows where your attention seems desperately to want to go.

As I said, I'm not mad at you Bap.

I have no doubt that you harbor no anger

Zimmerman's new attorneys quit: The Client has been incommunicado and calling Talk Shows against their advice.

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/04/10/george-zimmermans-attorneys-withdraw-from-case/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57412307/where-is-george-zimmerman/
If they arrested him in the first place and let the legal system run its course, this wouldn't be an issue.

Maybe he's sipping Mate in Buenos Aires.

If he did get charged with anything, even a misdemeanor, he would be looking at a minimum of 25 years in prison due to Florida's 20-10-Life law. Yep, it makes sense for him to skip town before they press charges.

He'd half to leave the country to be relatively safe though, in a country with no extradition treaties. Still, given the alternative, I think most people would do so.

Dan8267 says

If he did get charged with anything, even a misdemeanor, he would be looking at a minimum of 25 years in prison due to Florida's 20-10-Life law. Yep, it makes sense for him to skip town before they press charges.

He'd half to leave the country to be relatively safe though, in a country with no extradition treaties. Still, given the alternative, I think most people would do so.

If he goes to prison for 25 years he is a deadman. Since there are reports he is going to be charged, he better have his bags packed.

Wonder what Hannitty will say? Can't wait to hear his reaction to Zim being charged. Wonder if he will even mention it, or just move on...

I look forward to seeing the latest mugshot of Zimmerman in the news. It is not fair for the media to use old pictures of people. That's what Rush Slutball told me, and I believe him.

Second degree murder.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/11/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

david1 says

If he goes to prison for 25 years he is a deadman.

Why would he be a dead man? Were the motives of Zimmerman any worse than your average Hispanic or Neo-Nazi gang-banger in jail for murdering an African American?

Now that a prosecutor has filed charges, does this mean the "Stand your Ground" law has no relevance to the case? If Zimmerman stalked, confronted and murdered Martin - Stand your ground has no bearing. Its just murder.

If Zimmerman's account is true that he was on the sidewalk getting his head bashed in by Martin, he had no place to retreat (or ground to stand) and could use deadly force if he believed his life was in danger. Most States have similar laws.

I just hope those Neo-Nazis patrolling down there keep the angry throngs of conservative white Republicans from rioting. Last thing I'd want to see is a race war amongst the lowest levels of the underclass. The economy is growing and creating indentured servant jobs; and we need all of the filthy, idiotic underclass we can get.

Also,

http://www.cnn.com/video/?iid=article_sidebar#/video/bestoftv/2012/04/05/piers-morgan-benjamin-crump-trayvon-martin-defended-himself.cnn

Timeline of events in Trayvon Martin case
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/11/justice/florida-teen-shooting-timeline/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Not exactly a gangster.

A couple of good stories on CNN.

The polarization of coverage
http://www.cnn.com/video/?iid=article_sidebar#/video/politics/2012/04/01/rs-martin-media-race-polarization.cnn

'Stand Your Ground' breakdown
http://www.cnn.com/video/?iid=article_sidebar#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/30/exp-point-kopel-one.cnn

The polarization story is particularly on point. Conservatives are correct in claiming that the liberal press was race baiting. NBC did get caught manipulating the audio of the 911 recording. And that can't be unintentional. This is particularly shocking because this is the type of thing we expect from Fox News, not a real news agency. And people have the right to be upset with NBC on faking this news. It was utterly inexcusable.

However, the conservative media has also been racist trying to make Martin appear to be a thug and gangster, which he was not. He was a typical teenager with a few minor problems. He was not "prowling" as many on this thread have stated. He simply went from his home to the store and was heading back.

This just goes to that it is possible for there to be both race baiting and racism. The bottom line is that Zimmerman thought Martin was suspicious solely based on his skin tone and outfit, neither of which is sufficient to make an objective person even suspect Martin was a burglar, which he clearly wasn't.

Conclusions

1. Martin did nothing to instigate this situation.
2. Yes, Zimmerman was a racist.
3. NBC and other mainstream media outlets took the racist element of this case and exaggerated it greatly, falsifying evidence. This is race-baiting.
4. Fox News and other conservative media counter the race baiting with racist allegations and falsehoods about Martin including doctoring video evidence.
5. Martin was fleeing Zimmerman.
6. Zimmerman chased Martin and attacked him.
7. Martin defended himself, which is fully legal and wise. Any injuries Martin caused to Zimmerman in self-defense do not justify Zimmerman shooting Martin. Both parties cannot claim self-defense, and clearly Martin was the victim.
8. Zimmerman lied to the police about the incident including where it took place. Martin was killed far from Zimmerman's car.
9. Zimmerman has no stand-your-ground defense.
10. It is unknown whether or not the police were complacent in this case. They may have been trying to gather evidence before charging Zimmerman, or they may have had no intent of investigating this case, in which case the media firestorm was necessary.
11. The whole case illustrates why it is difficult, if not impossible, to get a fair trial when the media publicizes your case before a verdict is rendered. This makes a good case to adopt the British law that states the media cannot disclose the names of people in a case before a verdict is returned.
12. The charge of second degree murder makes perfect sense. Zimmerman didn't kill Martin in the heat of passion in a sudden and unpredictable situation like finding your wife in bed with another man. There was clearly some premeditation, but not enough for first degree murder. This situation fits perfectly with the definition of Second Degree Murder on FindLaw.

As for whether or not the jury will convict Zimmerman, that all depends on what else comes out. So far, the evidence doesn't look good for Zimmerman. Still, he's luckier than Martin. At least Zimmerman got to experience adulthood.

Dan8267 says

NBC and other mainstream media outlets took the racist element of this case and exaggerated it greatly, falsifying evidence. This is race-baiting.

I don't know that your definition of racebaiting is correct. But based on your definition, maybe the racism was exaggerated in a few small corners, which the right wing propaganda machine focussed on, ...but why ?

As you say, it seems to anyone with an ounce of sense, the following of Martin and the ensuing confrontation happened because he was black.

The people making exaggerated comments were upset about a seemingly (at least partially) racially based murder, where the known killer was not charged with anything. A few leaders of the black community make some exaggerated comments about the race aspect of this, and the right wing media machine screams "racebaiting?"

Sorry but I don't understand in the slightest. I can usually see both sides even if I dissagree with one. But in this case, I only see racism, hate and stupidity on the right.

If the right wing media had tried to be relatively neutral, they could have tried to be above it and say something like: "The concern about why Zimmerman hasn't been charged is quite understandable, and those protesting this may be well justified in bringing attention to this, but it is ill advised for people to overstate what very well could be a racial profiling aspect of this killing, thus instigating racial tensions.

But instead, as far as I can tell they just totally pander to their racist base. "Racebaing, racebaiting racebaiting !!" And they portray a basically normal kid as a thug.

marcus says

But based on your definition, maybe the racism was exaggerated in a few small corners

The most notable example is the tampering of the 911 call. The way NBC edited it, the call made Zimmerman sound like he was hunting blacks. In reality, Zimmerman was responding to a question asked by the 911 operator. The edit point was placed in such an exact position that it's intent was obviously to make people believe Zimmerman was being racist in the call.

Now Zimmerman clearly is racist as the only reason he stalked and chased down Martin was because of Martin's race. However, the existence of racism and race-baiting are not mutually exclusive. NBC and other media outlets took the racist motivations in this case and embellished them intentionally. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Just like the conservative media is utterly wrong to have made Martin out to be a hoodlum gangster, the mainstream media was wrong to edit the 911 tapes or to "enhance" the tapes to make it sound like Zimmerman was clearly saying "fucking coons". The conservative media was also wrong for "enhancing" the surveillance video of Zimmerman to make it appear that he had major scars on his head and was bleeding.

Both sides of the media were deceptive. Now I expect that from Fox, and I'm sure Fox's viewers will overlook all their lies as they are used to doing so. However, NBC's reputation and credibility will take a major hit from which it will take years to recover.

Educated liberals do not take kindly to falsifying evidence. That is one of the major things that distinguishes them from conservatives. I, for one, am pissed that NBC would edit the 911 call or "enhance it" without disclosing that information to the audience. That was very fraudulent.

Dan8267 says

That was very fraudulent.

But for all we know, it was one person, who was fired for doing it. I agree, but I don't see it as similar to what happened on the right. We had more than one person on this forum who listened to that propaganda and were sure Martin was a criminal.

And think about why someone would do what one or a small number of peolpe did at NBC. Practically start a race war ? That doesn't help the left or liberal politicians, so either it was really stupid, or it was done by ??? to trip up black leaders and put Obama in an awkward position.

I know that's kind of paranoid. But left wing motives for the NBC error don't make sense.

Either it was a really really really stupid effort to sensationalize the situation, with the risk of what happened, people being fired, a very predictable outcome. Or there were other more twisted motives.

It clearly was not about any left wing agenda, or pandering to their base.

marcus says

But for all we know, it was one person, who was fired for doing it.

True, it isn't systematic like in Fox News. However, it's still a big blunder that went uncorrected for too long. As such, it destroys trust.

marcus says

And think about why someone would do what one or a small number of peolpe did at NBC. Practically start a race war ?

Ratings, not politics, ratings. Stupid, short-sighted person taking a dumb risk doing something unethical to drum up ratings.

the 6 people in Frisco and 3 people in New York that watch the NBC news will not hold it against the network.

marcus says

It clearly was not about any left wing agenda, or pandering to their base

You might be right, though only true if someone intended for this jackass to be caught.

By the same logic, the Tea Party racist protester pictures, Fox news, as well as Derbyshire are all working for the Democrats. (At the very least those publishing the racist protester photos over and over again are indeed simply trying to associate all non-Obama lovers as racists.)

Dan8267 says

Educated liberals do not take kindly to falsifying evidence...I, for one, am pissed that NBC would edit the 911 call or "enhance it" without disclosing that information to the audience. That was very fraudulent.

+1. It is ignorant to be blind to Democrat/left propoganda simply because Fox news does the same thing in a more blatant manner.

Too soon ?

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