patrick.net

Honest Abe says

yep, its reasonable to A.S.S.U.M.E. Thats an acrynom for something, isn't it?

Acronym? No. The saying is "to assume makes an ass out of u and me".

Marcus...I GET IT!! Zimmerman is guilty of ThoughtCrime.

He was THINKING: "I don't like this BLACK MAN bashing my head in so I guess I'll just shoot him".

Lets bring in the ThoughtPolice and get this matter solved once and for all! Case closed.

Honest Abe says

He was THINKING: "I don't like this BLACK MAN bashing my head in so I guess I'll just shoot him".

OBviously you are one of the idiots that thinks Zimmerman should be tried (in your case defended) here on the internet.

I'm only saying he needs to be charged so that he can be given a fair trial.

He shot and killed a man !

Why would you argue this Abe ? Does your "I only see the content of a man's character," have you confused ?

marcus says

I'm only saying he needs to be charged so that he can be given a fair trial.

A week or so ago you called Zim a murdering racist. It was back when Spike Lee was doing what he could to get a lynch mod to Zim's house to win the bounty for his head that the Black Panthers have in place. Your new position is easier for me to support. If he is charged with a possible crime in connection with his self defense claim, then a fair trail is a fair request.

In order to charge him with murder or manslaughter it has to be reasonable to believe that he may have indeed committed such a crime.

The fact that I think it is at least manslaughter (this was asserted as an opinion) is directly tied to how outrageous I think it is that he wasn't even charged. And yes I still think it likely that race was a factor in Zimmerman following MArtin, his thinking he was suspicious, and in the police not charging him.

Bap33 says

It was back when Spike Lee was doing what he could to get a lynch mod to Zim's house to win the bounty for his head that the Black Panthers have in place.

All of this was done out of outrage over the injustice of his not even being charged. I understand why you are not able to comprehend that.

It's the same reason why you confuse arguing that someone is POTENTIALLY guilty enough that they should be charged, with an argument that they are so guilty that they don't even need to be charged and cshould be executed now.

MY position isn't new. It's just clarified because I realized that the distinction in the previous paragraph was one you were blind to for some reason.

What happened ? The Easter weekend help you realize you should stop trolling this thread ? What is it, you get some religion ?

http://www.O2cCuadivpE

marcus says

Bap33 says

It was back when Spike Lee was doing what he could to get a lynch mod to Zim's house to win the bounty for his head that the Black Panthers have in place.

marcus said: All of this was done out of outrage over the injustice of his not even being charged. I understand why you are not able to comprehend that.

to be clear ... Zim being outraged by the crime in his area being carried out by young negro men has no value, but attempted murder by Spike and killer for hire by Black Panthers is no biggie ... that's your position?

Bap33 says

Zim being outraged by the crime in his area being carried out by young negro men has no value, but attempted murder by Spike and killer for hire by Black Panthers is no biggie ... that's your position?

I never said anything about any of these. You forgot to bring in the word prowler again.

It would be as if I wanted to talk about democrats versus republican on taxes, and you were totally unable to even enter the conversation except to assert, "all I know is those same democrats are in favor gay marriage."

One thing at a time man.

IF some prominent figure at one moment of emotion said something stupid, so ? Jackson and others have condemned what the "New Black Panthers" (all six of them) have said, and leaders of the real Black Panthers and others have disassociated themselves from them and their use of that name.

http://www.blackpanther.org/newsalert.htm

Why can't you understand why emotions run so high with some African Americans over this ? Instead of beginning to see the source of their emotion, all you can do is react to their reaction.

What about the original thing they were reacting to ? Why so hard for you to appreciate that. Sad to say I know the answer.

But can you at least consider the question ?

marcus says

Zim being outraged by the crime in his area being carried out by young negro men has no value

I will acknowledge that Zimmerman may have been very very very stupid, or even semi retarded, possibly unable to tell the difference between a 1 in 100 chance versus a 50 50 chance. (of Martin being a criminal just because he was black). But none the less, it's still racism. That's really all racism is (stupidity and ignorance).

OF course on top of being not so bright, evidence of his history suggests emotional challenges. This is also suggested by his following Martin and possibly confronting him or trying to detain him.

marcus says

Why can't you understand why emotions run so high with some African Americans over this ? Instead

because I firmly belive in treating all people equal no matter the color of their skin. I am not a racist. A racist looks at the skin color and then decides what atitude or action is acceptable. I disagree with being a racist and doing that. So, no free pass for the racebaitors, sorry.

you allowfor outrage from one, and not the other, based ONLY on race. That is a bad situation, in my opinion.

Bap33 says

I disagree with being a racist and doing that. So, no free pass for the racebaitors, sorry

Okay, well, I'm not mad at you Bap, you can't help it.

Bap33 says

you allowfor outrage from one, and not the other, based ONLY on race. That is a bad situation, in my opinion.

I'm assuming that if you had a coherent point to make you would have made it ?

I allow for people (myself included ) being outrage that Zimmerman wasn't charged with a crime.

And yes I don't have particular outrage against individuals who make fools of them self over this, nor do I have a problem with you being outraged over their momentary expression being picked up and magnified by the right wing media.

But newsflash: When you can't comment intelligently about an issue without constantly twisting it around and focusing only on what a few of the most emotional unfortunate comments wereabout it, or without being defensive of Zimmerman, it shows where your attention seems desperately to want to go.

As I said, I'm not mad at you Bap.

I have no doubt that you harbor no anger

Zimmerman's new attorneys quit: The Client has been incommunicado and calling Talk Shows against their advice.

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/04/10/george-zimmermans-attorneys-withdraw-from-case/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57412307/where-is-george-zimmerman/
If they arrested him in the first place and let the legal system run its course, this wouldn't be an issue.

Maybe he's sipping Mate in Buenos Aires.

If he did get charged with anything, even a misdemeanor, he would be looking at a minimum of 25 years in prison due to Florida's 20-10-Life law. Yep, it makes sense for him to skip town before they press charges.

He'd half to leave the country to be relatively safe though, in a country with no extradition treaties. Still, given the alternative, I think most people would do so.

Dan8267 says

If he did get charged with anything, even a misdemeanor, he would be looking at a minimum of 25 years in prison due to Florida's 20-10-Life law. Yep, it makes sense for him to skip town before they press charges.

He'd half to leave the country to be relatively safe though, in a country with no extradition treaties. Still, given the alternative, I think most people would do so.

If he goes to prison for 25 years he is a deadman. Since there are reports he is going to be charged, he better have his bags packed.

Wonder what Hannitty will say? Can't wait to hear his reaction to Zim being charged. Wonder if he will even mention it, or just move on...

I look forward to seeing the latest mugshot of Zimmerman in the news. It is not fair for the media to use old pictures of people. That's what Rush Slutball told me, and I believe him.

Second degree murder.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/11/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

david1 says

If he goes to prison for 25 years he is a deadman.

Why would he be a dead man? Were the motives of Zimmerman any worse than your average Hispanic or Neo-Nazi gang-banger in jail for murdering an African American?

Now that a prosecutor has filed charges, does this mean the "Stand your Ground" law has no relevance to the case? If Zimmerman stalked, confronted and murdered Martin - Stand your ground has no bearing. Its just murder.

If Zimmerman's account is true that he was on the sidewalk getting his head bashed in by Martin, he had no place to retreat (or ground to stand) and could use deadly force if he believed his life was in danger. Most States have similar laws.

I just hope those Neo-Nazis patrolling down there keep the angry throngs of conservative white Republicans from rioting. Last thing I'd want to see is a race war amongst the lowest levels of the underclass. The economy is growing and creating indentured servant jobs; and we need all of the filthy, idiotic underclass we can get.

Also,

http://www.cnn.com/video/?iid=article_sidebar#/video/bestoftv/2012/04/05/piers-morgan-benjamin-crump-trayvon-martin-defended-himself.cnn

Timeline of events in Trayvon Martin case
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/11/justice/florida-teen-shooting-timeline/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Not exactly a gangster.

A couple of good stories on CNN.

The polarization of coverage
http://www.cnn.com/video/?iid=article_sidebar#/video/politics/2012/04/01/rs-martin-media-race-polarization.cnn

'Stand Your Ground' breakdown
http://www.cnn.com/video/?iid=article_sidebar#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/30/exp-point-kopel-one.cnn

The polarization story is particularly on point. Conservatives are correct in claiming that the liberal press was race baiting. NBC did get caught manipulating the audio of the 911 recording. And that can't be unintentional. This is particularly shocking because this is the type of thing we expect from Fox News, not a real news agency. And people have the right to be upset with NBC on faking this news. It was utterly inexcusable.

However, the conservative media has also been racist trying to make Martin appear to be a thug and gangster, which he was not. He was a typical teenager with a few minor problems. He was not "prowling" as many on this thread have stated. He simply went from his home to the store and was heading back.

This just goes to that it is possible for there to be both race baiting and racism. The bottom line is that Zimmerman thought Martin was suspicious solely based on his skin tone and outfit, neither of which is sufficient to make an objective person even suspect Martin was a burglar, which he clearly wasn't.

Conclusions

1. Martin did nothing to instigate this situation.
2. Yes, Zimmerman was a racist.
3. NBC and other mainstream media outlets took the racist element of this case and exaggerated it greatly, falsifying evidence. This is race-baiting.
4. Fox News and other conservative media counter the race baiting with racist allegations and falsehoods about Martin including doctoring video evidence.
5. Martin was fleeing Zimmerman.
6. Zimmerman chased Martin and attacked him.
7. Martin defended himself, which is fully legal and wise. Any injuries Martin caused to Zimmerman in self-defense do not justify Zimmerman shooting Martin. Both parties cannot claim self-defense, and clearly Martin was the victim.
8. Zimmerman lied to the police about the incident including where it took place. Martin was killed far from Zimmerman's car.
9. Zimmerman has no stand-your-ground defense.
10. It is unknown whether or not the police were complacent in this case. They may have been trying to gather evidence before charging Zimmerman, or they may have had no intent of investigating this case, in which case the media firestorm was necessary.
11. The whole case illustrates why it is difficult, if not impossible, to get a fair trial when the media publicizes your case before a verdict is rendered. This makes a good case to adopt the British law that states the media cannot disclose the names of people in a case before a verdict is returned.
12. The charge of second degree murder makes perfect sense. Zimmerman didn't kill Martin in the heat of passion in a sudden and unpredictable situation like finding your wife in bed with another man. There was clearly some premeditation, but not enough for first degree murder. This situation fits perfectly with the definition of Second Degree Murder on FindLaw.

As for whether or not the jury will convict Zimmerman, that all depends on what else comes out. So far, the evidence doesn't look good for Zimmerman. Still, he's luckier than Martin. At least Zimmerman got to experience adulthood.

Dan8267 says

NBC and other mainstream media outlets took the racist element of this case and exaggerated it greatly, falsifying evidence. This is race-baiting.

I don't know that your definition of racebaiting is correct. But based on your definition, maybe the racism was exaggerated in a few small corners, which the right wing propaganda machine focussed on, ...but why ?

As you say, it seems to anyone with an ounce of sense, the following of Martin and the ensuing confrontation happened because he was black.

The people making exaggerated comments were upset about a seemingly (at least partially) racially based murder, where the known killer was not charged with anything. A few leaders of the black community make some exaggerated comments about the race aspect of this, and the right wing media machine screams "racebaiting?"

Sorry but I don't understand in the slightest. I can usually see both sides even if I dissagree with one. But in this case, I only see racism, hate and stupidity on the right.

If the right wing media had tried to be relatively neutral, they could have tried to be above it and say something like: "The concern about why Zimmerman hasn't been charged is quite understandable, and those protesting this may be well justified in bringing attention to this, but it is ill advised for people to overstate what very well could be a racial profiling aspect of this killing, thus instigating racial tensions.

But instead, as far as I can tell they just totally pander to their racist base. "Racebaing, racebaiting racebaiting !!" And they portray a basically normal kid as a thug.

marcus says

But based on your definition, maybe the racism was exaggerated in a few small corners

The most notable example is the tampering of the 911 call. The way NBC edited it, the call made Zimmerman sound like he was hunting blacks. In reality, Zimmerman was responding to a question asked by the 911 operator. The edit point was placed in such an exact position that it's intent was obviously to make people believe Zimmerman was being racist in the call.

Now Zimmerman clearly is racist as the only reason he stalked and chased down Martin was because of Martin's race. However, the existence of racism and race-baiting are not mutually exclusive. NBC and other media outlets took the racist motivations in this case and embellished them intentionally. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Just like the conservative media is utterly wrong to have made Martin out to be a hoodlum gangster, the mainstream media was wrong to edit the 911 tapes or to "enhance" the tapes to make it sound like Zimmerman was clearly saying "fucking coons". The conservative media was also wrong for "enhancing" the surveillance video of Zimmerman to make it appear that he had major scars on his head and was bleeding.

Both sides of the media were deceptive. Now I expect that from Fox, and I'm sure Fox's viewers will overlook all their lies as they are used to doing so. However, NBC's reputation and credibility will take a major hit from which it will take years to recover.

Educated liberals do not take kindly to falsifying evidence. That is one of the major things that distinguishes them from conservatives. I, for one, am pissed that NBC would edit the 911 call or "enhance it" without disclosing that information to the audience. That was very fraudulent.

Dan8267 says

That was very fraudulent.

But for all we know, it was one person, who was fired for doing it. I agree, but I don't see it as similar to what happened on the right. We had more than one person on this forum who listened to that propaganda and were sure Martin was a criminal.

And think about why someone would do what one or a small number of peolpe did at NBC. Practically start a race war ? That doesn't help the left or liberal politicians, so either it was really stupid, or it was done by ??? to trip up black leaders and put Obama in an awkward position.

I know that's kind of paranoid. But left wing motives for the NBC error don't make sense.

Either it was a really really really stupid effort to sensationalize the situation, with the risk of what happened, people being fired, a very predictable outcome. Or there were other more twisted motives.

It clearly was not about any left wing agenda, or pandering to their base.

marcus says

But for all we know, it was one person, who was fired for doing it.

True, it isn't systematic like in Fox News. However, it's still a big blunder that went uncorrected for too long. As such, it destroys trust.

marcus says

And think about why someone would do what one or a small number of peolpe did at NBC. Practically start a race war ?

Ratings, not politics, ratings. Stupid, short-sighted person taking a dumb risk doing something unethical to drum up ratings.

the 6 people in Frisco and 3 people in New York that watch the NBC news will not hold it against the network.

marcus says

It clearly was not about any left wing agenda, or pandering to their base

You might be right, though only true if someone intended for this jackass to be caught.

By the same logic, the Tea Party racist protester pictures, Fox news, as well as Derbyshire are all working for the Democrats. (At the very least those publishing the racist protester photos over and over again are indeed simply trying to associate all non-Obama lovers as racists.)

Dan8267 says

Educated liberals do not take kindly to falsifying evidence...I, for one, am pissed that NBC would edit the 911 call or "enhance it" without disclosing that information to the audience. That was very fraudulent.

+1. It is ignorant to be blind to Democrat/left propoganda simply because Fox news does the same thing in a more blatant manner.

Too soon ?

.

.

.

yea, too soon. But funny in a sick kinda way.

The kid was a child. Everything I've seen points toward him being shot by an overzealous neighborhood watch dick with a gun. It's a horrible crime and a horrible situation. I hope he's found guilty and his life is ruined.

The worst thing that can happen from all of this would be for him to be considered a hero of any sort.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

hand grenades

I prefer EMPs, electro-magnetic pulse grenades. Works on terminators, predators, and xenomorphs.

Zimmerman was not admitted to a hospital or given stitches the night of the incident.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5GUYtWO7sZ

How could Zimmerman have gashed his head? He could have tried to grab Martin and then was punched or pushed and fell backwards, cutting his head. Something Martin had every right to do under Florida's SYG law when challenged by a private citizen with no official authority of any kind. Then maybe he didn't like his authoritah challenged and shot the kid in a rage.

This is a guy who was charged for fighting with a LEO, an ex-girlfriend, and lost his security guard job over using excessive force on a gal at a nightclub.

Methinks Daddy won't be able to get him out of this one.

the Blank Pathers say, " So what? That is not enough obvious damage to allow some white cracker to protect himself from violence!! He needs to take the beat-down for dissin' our homie."

Sam Colt says, "When on patrol, protect yourself for violence with my Equalizer."

Bap33 says

the Blank Pathers say, " So what? That is not enough obvious damage to allow some white cracker to protect himself from violence!! He needs to take the beat-down for dissin' our homie."

Boy, the scene of the shooting was an awfully long way from the vehicle that Zimmerman claimed the encounter started at.

Did you know what happened when Zimmerman was charged with resisting an officer with violence?

It was reduced to resisting an officer without violence by the prosecutor, and then charges were dropped when he agreed to go to an alcohol rehab program.

Then the records were sealed.

Thanks dad!

thunderlips11 says

Did you know what happened when Zimmerman was charged with resisting an officer with violence?

From MSNBC

In 2005, Zimmerman, then 20, was arrested and charged with “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer,” both which are third-degree felonies. The charge was reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program. Contemporaneous accounts indicate he shoved an officer who was questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking at an Orange County bar.

Yeah, charges like that aren't reduced and dropped unless you have connections. And it turns out that George Zimmerman's dad is a retired judge in the county where this happened. Geeze, I guess that explains a lot, including why he wasn't originally charged with Martin's death.

People who's daddies aren't retired judges and friends of the current judges don't get off so easily for assaulting police officers.

Cloud says

Will do anything to get elected.

Yeah, his positions might as well be written with an etch-a-sketch, just shakes it and starts over when it best suits him.

Oh, wait... never mind that is Romney.

leoj707 says

Cloud says

Will do anything to get elected.

More anal leaking from Cloud? Let me guess, he took a thread about the Zimmerman-Martin case and made it about Obama. What an idiot. This case has nothing to do with the election.

Dan8267 says

More anal leaking from Cloud?

At least he sticks with what he is good at.