patrick.net

I read the article. What if the roofers were the burglers ?Bap33 says

Hey, guess what, that makes this bad guy under 18, 17 and 16 ... wow!! ... he's just a child!!

Same serious logic error.

If you think someone fits the description of a criminal, not only does this not give you the right to kill them, it doesn't even give you the right to detain them until police come. Really, if you aren't seriously stupid and emotionally challenged, you probably shouldn't even stalk them. Not even if you are the "neighborhood watch captain" with a gun.

(maybe especially if you are the "neighborhood watch captain" with a gun.)

Bap33 says

@leo,

it does not contridict you because you phrase your position with at least a little bit of uncertainty. But, it clearly is not in line with what some others have wrote.

I phrase it with uncertainty because we are not certain. As pointed out by marcus "others" wrote a puff piece that failed to mention many facts that we do know about Zimmerman.

Bap33 says

chances are pretty good that a bad guy that you find while on patrol

Patrolling and finding bad guy is so not the function of a neighborhood watch. It's supposed to be about getting people involved in watching so that bad guys will stay away.

I guess you could argue that killing someone because they look slightly more like a bad guy than the average guy in the neighborhood does serve that purpose too.

@leo,
This story you call "puff". THe actions of the mass media and Spike Lee and Sharpten and Jackson and The Black Panthers and the CBS edit must be >puff, right? I mean, can you agree that the efforts put in place to make this about race were wrong? And the demand for some proof that Zim was being beaten "bad enough" to defend himself, is that ok with you? I agree, you have stayed balanced on the rim, but you are leaning towards the "negative about Zim camp", and I think that is effecting your view about some issues.

The shooting was not a planned action. Being ready for something to go wrong is all that happened. Zim was ready, in the event things went bad, like another piut-bull attack. That is what went down.

@marcus,

marcus says

Patrolling and finding bad guy is so not the function of a neighborhood watch.

marcus says

It's supposed to be about getting people involved in watching

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/watching
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/patrolling
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Neighborhood+watch

you will find the word "patrolling" comes up alot in the description of the Neighborhood Watch.

NEXT!!

marcus says

I read the article. What if the roofers were the burglers ?Bap33 says

Hey, guess what, that makes this bad guy under 18, 17 and 16 ... wow!! ... he's just a child!!

Same serious logic error.

Then the roofer sold the loot to the same guy that was busted for robbery at the age of 15, 16, and spent all of 2010 in youth jail, and was seen prowling in the area not long before..... READ THE STORY. The past age of the criminal is found by taking his current age and subtracting.

cmon dude, use your advanced reading skills!

Bap33 says

THe actions of the mass media and Spike Lee and Sharpten and Jackson and The Black Panthers and the CBS edit must be >puff, right? I mean, can you agree that the efforts put in place to make this about race were wrong?

While I don't totally agree with them, they are not totally wrong. Would Trayvon have been killed if he was white? No, so it is understandable that people have been upset about the race issue.

Also, at least Spike Lee "[Did] the Right Thing" when he realized that he made a mistake.

Bap33 says

And the demand for some proof that Zim was being beaten "bad enough" to defend himself, is that ok with you?

It is not about Zimmerman "being beaten bad enough to defend himself". That would be what we refer to as a straw man argument. In any state in the union, stand your ground law or not, you can kill someone who has not even laid a hand on you.

Zimmerman's claims that he suffered a sustained assault that would have resulted in some serious injury. There is not only no evidence of the injury, but evidence to the contrary. This makes Zimmerman appear to be a liar, and brings his entire story of events into question.

Bap33 says

I agree, you have stayed balanced on the rim, but you are leaning towards the "negative about Zim camp", and I think that is effecting your view about some issues.

My views are only affected by the data we have on hand. That data does not support the "hero" Zimmerman narrative.

I am totally for people shooting others in self-defense. I applaud when it happens in a legitimate light. I own quite a few guns, and have in the past had a concealed carry permit for my 9mm Glock and Ruger .357. I have never had to brandish or shoot a gun in self-defense, but have kept a hand on it in a few situations.

Based on his history Zimmerman does not seem to be fit to carry a weapon. He has displayed severe impulse and anger issues in the past. This is NOT the type of armed citizen we should want.

Bap33 says

The shooting was not a planned action.

If it was the charge would have been 1st degree murder instead of 2nd degree.

Bap33 says

Being ready for something to go wrong is all that happened. Zim was ready, in the event things went bad, like another piut-bull attack.

I have no problem with being ready. I was a boyscout, and have always said that I would rather have my gun and not need it than need it and not have it.

The problem is that Zimmerman instigated something bad happening. I don't believe his story for all the reasons laid out in this thread.

Bap33 says

The past age of the criminal is found by taking his current age and subtracting.

Are you saying that Zimmerman was looking for a teenager?

Hmmm... that is not what he said in his "apology" to his family. He said that he thought Trayvon was only a couple years younger than Zimmerman.

Bap33 says

you will find the word "patrolling" comes up alot in the description of the Neighborhood Watch

A neighborhood watch that carries guns is called a gang-- especially if they use the guns.

Bap33 says

THe actions of the mass media and Spike Lee and Sharpten and Jackson and The Black Panthers and the CBS edit must be >puff, right? I mean, can you agree that the efforts put in place to make this about race were wrong?

OK, I agree that the efforts to make this about race are mostly wrong.

See, I can say...

Sharpten (always an idiot in my book), the Panthers are idiots.

...and...

Jackson is a little bit of an idiot...

...and...

Spike Lee made a stupid mistake, but did the right thing...

...and...

Those responsible at CBS were rightly admonished.

I can say all those things, and still look at the current data set and say, "Zimmerman is probably guilty of manslaughter or 2nd degree murder, he killed Trayvon when he did not need to and should not have. Zimmerman also 'profiled' based on race. If Trayvon was white he would be alive today."

Bap the problem for you seems to be that you are making it about race as much as your loathed "race-baiters". You seem to laud as a hero -- the seemingly in the wrong -- non-black shooter, and demonize -- the apparently innocent -- black teenager. If Trayvon was a white kid shot in the exact same circumstance I doubt you would have the same stance on this issue.

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

The past age of the criminal is found by taking his current age and subtracting.

Are you saying that Zimmerman was looking for a teenager?

Hmmm... that is not what he said in his "apology" to his family. He said that he thought Trayvon was only a couple years younger than Zimmerman.

nope, I was explaining the comment to marcus. The bad guy was yunger than Martin, who was portrayed as being too yuthful to be a threat to anyone. That was where that came about.

leoj707 says

While I don't totally agree with them, they are not totally wrong. Would Trayvon have been killed if he was white? No, so it is understandable that people have been upset about the race issue.

How - in the world - can you make such a statement?? That is nonsense.

leoj707 says

There is not only no evidence of the injury, but evidence to the contrary. This makes Zimmerman appear to be a liar, and brings his entire story of events into question.

you have not seen the video or read the police reports. There was evidence of harm to Zim.

leoj707 says

This is NOT the type of armed citizen we should want.

possible point. But, when your wife is walking out to her car at the mall, or going to the ATM, or home alone,,,, you are not worried about a Zim type of citizen hurting her or robbing her. So, while an armed Zim is an issue for the sect of the population that outwardly matched the sect that causes most of the fear, hurt, and harm to a citizen group in an area, an armed Zim would be no problem for you, me, or ours. Why not have the bad guys be held responsible for making the other citizens so angry and afraid that the innocent people that look like the bad guys are looked at as badguys. (where I was trying to get with the gopher snake, rattle snake example)

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

There is not only no evidence of the injury, but evidence to the contrary. This makes Zimmerman appear to be a liar, and brings his entire story of events into question.

you have not seen the video or read the police reports. There was evidence of harm to Zim.

I have seen the video and am familiar with what the reports. Perhaps you are talking about the "enhanced" video; I have seen that as well.

Perhaps you are not aware of the comments made by the medical professionals who were at the scene.

Clearly there was at least a small scuffle -- in which Trayvon, whos voice was filled with terror, was pleading for help. However, there is absolutely no evidence that Zimmerman was bludgeoned in the manner that he described. No evidence on Zimmeran's face or head, and no evidence on Trayvon's hands. Do you know what a bare knuckled ground-and-pound does to a face and the hands dealing it out?

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

While I don't totally agree with them, they are not totally wrong. Would Trayvon have been killed if he was white? No, so it is understandable that people have been upset about the race issue.

How - in the world - can you make such a statement?? That is nonsense.

Are you saying that you feel Trayvon would have been just as dead if he were white?

leoj707 says

The problem is that Zimmerman instigated something bad happening. I don't believe his story for all the reasons laid out in this thread.

I was not sure about this point until I read what Martin's GF said and his mom. Then I looked at the map to see where each location was. You know, "Martin was here, went there, and was coming back here." Also, "Zim was here, called, spoke to 911 while walking from here to here, and shot Martin here." Along with the neighbors who called 911 and are on tape. Where they are in the layout of things.

I did it on google earth. After I laid it out, and I happen to think it shows why the Martin camp has changed to, "he should be allowed to walk anywhere he wants" from "he was just walking from the store". But, I do not have all the evidence. The last item I need to see is the phone log from Trevon if it has GPS. That would be the only way to patch the holes in the story the GF and Martin camp gave about what has up to. But, it may be just like the GF and Martin family said it was. That kind of info would be interesting. But, as soon as Martin attacked Zim he was wrong. The same freedom that allows Martin to be anywhere he wishes applies to Zim too.

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

While I don't totally agree with them, they are not totally wrong. Would Trayvon have been killed if he was white? No, so it is understandable that people have been upset about the race issue.

How - in the world - can you make such a statement?? That is nonsense.

Are you saying that you feel Trayvon would have been just as dead if he were white?

I am saying you can not say the only reason the kid was shot was becasue he was black, and you can not say a white kid in the same situation would not have been shot. A shot white kid would be just as dead - obviously.

leoj707 says

If Trayvon was a white kid shot in the exact same circumstance I doubt you would have the same stance on this issue.

nope. You would be wrong. You see, I understand that a weapon evens the ability to inflict harm, but also evens self defense. The best way to avoid "Bully makes rules" is to have a great equalizer. If I were to patrol a rough neighborhood I would do so with a weapon at the ready. Rough neighborhoods have no color boundry.

You would be hard pressed to find a more racist group of people on this planet than the ones that rioted in L.A. becasue the Rodney King cops did not get found guilty. They were convicted, tried, and found not quilty .. and so a bunch of racists rioted. This issue may be the same thing unless the racebaitors are able to force the law to be unjust. Anything based on race is friggin stupid.

Bap33 says

Why not have the bad guys be held responsible for making the other citizens so angry and afraid that the innocent people that look like the bad guys are looked at as badguys.

Christ, Bap do you even realize how racist this sounds?

You realize the only thing that made Trayvon look like a "bad guy" was the color of his skin. Because Trayvon "looked bad" somehow makes it OK for Zimmerman to stalk and kill him?

I am all for holding actual bad guys accountable, but I also think that we should hold accountable people who kill the innocent even if they think they were killing a bad guy. That in my book makes them a bad guy.

leoj707 says

Spike Lee made a stupid mistake, but did the right thing...

attempted murder 1 is a bit more than a mistake in my world. He should be tried and fried. He used his notariaty to try expose innocent people to murdering vigilaties. He did not worry about law, or truth. He just wanted white folks dead. He is a racist, and now an attempted murderer.

Bap33 says

After I laid it out, and I happen to think it shows why the Martin camp has changed to, "he should be allowed to walk anywhere he wants" from "he was just walking from the store". But, I do not have all the evidence.

Yes, he should. Also, he has a history of long talks on the phone with his girl friend.

I walk a lot and have been know to circle around the neighborhood while on the phone.

Is it unreasonable to think that he was taking the "long way home" so he could have an extended conversation in the relative privacy of outdoors?

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

Spike Lee made a stupid mistake, but did the right thing...

attempted murder 1 is a bit more than a mistake in my world. He should be tried and fried. He used his notariaty to try expose innocent people to murdering vigilaties. He did not worry about law, or truth. He just wanted white folks dead. He is a racist, and now an attempted murderer.

Umm.. just about everything you wrote here is wrong.

If he all he wanted was white folks dead why did he put the white family up in a hotel?

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

Why not have the bad guys be held responsible for making the other citizens so angry and afraid that the innocent people that look like the bad guys are looked at as badguys.

Christ, Bap do you even realize how racist this sounds?

You realize the only thing that made Trayvon look like a "bad guy" was the color of his skin. Because Trayvon "looked bad" somehow makes it OK for Zimmerman to stalk and kill him?

I am all for holding actual bad guys accountable, but I also think that we should hold accountable people who kill the innocent even if they think they were killing a bad guy. That in my book makes them a bad guy.

I'm not sure how to remove the skin color from the description of the local bad guys. Like, when you are asked to describe a suspect that ran off you would have to mention a skin color ... right? But, I'm willing to listen to the reason behind your point.

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

Spike Lee made a stupid mistake, but did the right thing...

attempted murder 1 is a bit more than a mistake in my world. He should be tried and fried. He used his notariaty to try expose innocent people to murdering vigilaties. He did not worry about law, or truth. He just wanted white folks dead. He is a racist, and now an attempted murderer.

Umm.. just about everything you wrote here is wrong.

If he all he wanted was white folks dead why did he put the white family up in a hotel?

he wanted the "other" white folks dead. And he has not came out to tell the groups of blacks beating up whites to stop it. He's a racist

leoj707 says

I am all for holding actual bad guys accountable, but I also think that we should hold accountable people who kill the innocent even if they think they were killing a bad guy. That in my book makes them a bad guy.

correct. The innocent part goes away when Martin attacks Zim.

Bap33 says

But, when your wife is walking out to her car at the mall, or going to the ATM, or home alone,,,, you are not worried about a Zim type of citizen hurting her or robbing her. So, while an armed Zim is an issue for the sect of the population that outwardly matched the sect that causes most of the fear, hurt, and harm to a citizen group in an area, an armed Zim would be no problem for you, me, or ours.

Yes, for myself, my wife and my kids I worry about armed Zimmermans.

Unstable aggressive people prone to violence worry me. They worry me even more when they are carrying a gun. Carrying a gun emboldens them and makes it much more likely that they will bully and confront others.

Even if my wife and I manage to stay out of there way someone who provokes gun battles can cause stray bullets to fly around a neighborhood.

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

I am all for holding actual bad guys accountable, but I also think that we should hold accountable people who kill the innocent even if they think they were killing a bad guy. That in my book makes them a bad guy.

correct. The innocent part goes away when Martin attacks Zim.

Yes, IF that is what happened. We have no reason to believe things went down the way Zimmerman says they did. We do have reason to believe that they did not.

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

After I laid it out, and I happen to think it shows why the Martin camp has changed to, "he should be allowed to walk anywhere he wants" from "he was just walking from the store". But, I do not have all the evidence.

Yes, he should. Also, he has a history of long talks on the phone with his girl friend.

I walk a lot and have been know to circle around the neighborhood while on the phone.

Is it unreasonable to think that he was taking the "long way home" so he could have an extended conversation in the relative privacy of outdoors?

yep, me too. But, given the crime level in that area leading up to this, and what the people have seen the bad guys doing here and there ... it may have been a bad time to walk around and chance being mistaken for a bad guy. For example, when Hells Angles are causing trouble I do not dress like one when I ride down the street. It's just a bad idea, and it sucks that the bad guys mess it up for everyone else. (I used the biker idea to remove skin color and other outward stuff due to helmets covering that up (most times))

leoj707 says

Unstable aggressive people prone to violence worry me. They worry me even more when they are carrying a gun. Carrying a gun emboldens them and makes it much more likely that they will bully and confront others.

we have differing views of who Zim really is. Fair enough.

Bap33 says

But, given the crime level in that area leading up to this, and what the people have seen the bad guys doing here and there ... it may have been a bad time to walk around and chance being mistaken for a bad guy.

So basically you are advising blacks to not walk around being black in that area.

Something you may enjoy:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-26-2012/c-n-i---cable-news-investigators---hoodie-threat

Bap33 says

we have differing views of who Zim really is. Fair enough.

Fair enough.

Bap33 says

cmon dude, use your advanced reading skills!

I did read it (or skim it), but I see you're right.

Now I understand Zimmerman's extreme stupidity better. One time he saw a suspicious guy, who actually much later did turn out to be a burgler. So this time he saw a suspicious guy (ie black teenager), and he assumed he was right again, as I'm sure you would.

I still say, just how dumb do you have to be to confuse a 1/50 chance or a 1/20 chance with certainty ?

And it's funny Bap reading your thoughts such as:

Bap33 says

So, while an armed Zim is an issue for the sect of the population that outwardly matched the sect that causes most of the fear, hurt, and harm to a citizen group in an area, an armed Zim would be no problem for you, me, or ours. Why not have the bad guys be held responsible for making the other citizens so angry and afraid that the innocent people that look like the bad guys are looked at as badguys.

I've lived in urban areas a good part of my life where half the people look like Martin or possibly scarier to a sheltered girly man like you or zimmerman, and I don't walk in fear or make retarded assumptions.

lol ... replaced ideas with personal attacks?? Are you channeling Clarence?? lol

The best defense is what? Right.

Have you even considered, what if Zim was right? but was not ready to defend his life? yea, some of us retards do not intend to be a victim in Lord Barry's Libtopia.

"girly man" ... lmao

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

But, given the crime level in that area leading up to this, and what the people have seen the bad guys doing here and there ... it may have been a bad time to walk around and chance being mistaken for a bad guy.

So basically you are advising blacks to not walk around being black in that area.

Something you may enjoy:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-26-2012/c-n-i---cable-news-investigators---hoodie-threat

not exactly .... but ..... people dress to expess, and that is just how life works. Otherwise, folks would go to job interviews in shorts and T-shirts, with messed hair and B.O. Why dont they?? Because, how you look/dress/present yourself matters, and effects how other approach you and what they expect. Agree?

I have some "Far Side" comic strip books, and one cartoon shows a blow fish, a porkypine, and a dude with a crazy look and a gun, (and some other stuff I cant recall) and the caption is, "How nature says Do Not Touch". Ever seen that one?

Bap33 says

Have you even considered, what if Zim was right? but was not ready to defend his life?

Yeah, that is the position that Trayvon was probably in. Have you considered that?

Bap33 says

not exactly .... but ..... people dress to expess

Yeah, but still pretty funny.

Have a good weekend.

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

Have you even considered, what if Zim was right? but was not ready to defend his life?

Yeah, that is the position that Trayvon was probably in. Have you considered that?

personal life history is shaping my instincts about this part ... just going with my gut ... and my gut sure could be wrong ... for the first time ever. It's due.

you have a great weekend

Bap33 says

lol ... replaced ideas with personal attacks?? Are you channeling Clarence?? lol

The best defense is what? Right.

Okay here is the same thing without the colorful adjectives, and newsflash, the idea I am trying to communicate was there all the same.

I've lived in urban areas a good part of my life where half the people look like Martin or possibly scarier to a sheltered inexperienced guys like you or zimmerman, and I don't walk in fear or make absurdly prejudiced assumptions.

Bap33 says

"girly man" ... lmao

Sorry if this hurt your feelings. But the underlying issue here is fear.