patrick.net

which steel skyscraper did you say was brought down by fire? you haven't mentioned a one.

Without any conspiracy theory there are some plane facts about 9/11:

1. There was no real congressional investigation, Bush administration actually blocked it. The members of the administration were extremely evasive while being questioned.

2. The day before 9/11, on 9/10/2001 Shah Massud the leader of Northern Alliance in Afghanistan was assasinated by two British journalists, which left anti-taliban forces leaderless. The assasins were extradicted to GB, declared members of Al-Qaeda, but no more information about them and the assasination ever came out.

3. I found it extremely unlikely that Osama bin Laden, the former agent on CIA payroll, was left unfollowed by CIA. Rather than considering CIA completely incapable, I would beliebe it had collected adequate information about his and his organization's plans and made it available to the decision makers in American administration.

4. The killing of Osama bin Laden and the top secrecy about documents found there look like a cover up operation rather than a genuine retaliation.

coriacci1 says

which steel skyscraper did you say was brought down by fire? you haven't mentioned a one.

The World Trade Center.

Please name all steel skyscrapers that were hit by Boing 767s full of fuel, had vital structural members and the fireproofing insulation destroyed, burned for an hour, and did NOT fall.

Now, are you going to answer any of my questions, troll?

You said you wanted a discussion. Guess you were lying, huh?

michaelsch says

3. I found it extremely unlikely that Osama bin Laden, the former agent on CIA payroll, was left unfollowed by CIA. Rather than considering CIA completely incapable, I would beliebe it had collected adequate information about his and his organization's plans and made it available to the decision makers in American administration.

Not the CIA, the FBI. They did present a memo to Bush on August 6, 2001, titled, "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the U.S.", and specifically mentioning bin Laden's desire to hijack American planes. Bush didn't do anything about it because he's an idiot.

michaelsch says

2. The day before 9/11, on 9/10/2001 Shah Massud the leader of Northern Alliance in Afghanistan was assasinated by two British journalists, which left anti-taliban forces leaderless. The assasins were extradicted to GB, declared members of Al-Qaeda, but no more information about them and the assasination ever came out.

Damn, talk about making up shite. His name was Massoud. It was two days before. They posed as Belgian journalists, one was killed in the explosion, the other shot dead, and more to the point, what exactly do you think you are trying to insinuate with that comment?

coriacci1 says

which steel skyscraper did you say was brought down by fire? you haven't mentioned a one.

Very few tall buildings have had serious fires so your selection is pretty limited. Zero tall buildings other than the twin towers have been hit by jets traveling 500 mph and dumped with thousands of gallons of jet fuel. The WIndsor building in Madrid and Deft University technology building are off the top of my head as examples of collapses that I remember from the 9/11 stuff years ago.

Of course the tin hat crowd will find reasons that even though these steel buildings collapsed from fire they really didn't collapse from fire or they sort of collapsed from fire but not really, or they really collapsed from fire but it wasn't really really a collapse from fire, or actually martians did it, or it was the shooter on the grassy know or, or whatever it takes so their 9/11 conspiracy bs is still valid in their very small minds.

Bap33 says

why not give the crazy arabs some credit for having the ability to use the planes AND have some explosives ready to explode??? Why think "inside job" all of a sudden?? It makes no sense to give anyone else any credit. If the buildings were razed, and I happen to think #7 was, (insurance job) then why not let OBL have some credit for it?? Dude was quite the organizer.

Besides, if the crazy arabs did pull all that off, I would bet the saving-of-face issue would force the CIA to sit quiet and pretend. Maybe?

Too bad someone can't ask him about it.

Homeboy says

and the immense weight of the structure caused each floor to successively collapse as all that weight bore down on it

I just want to point out that the same weight was there all the time. It does not matter if the upper "X" number of floors are 1,000' high, or if they are squished down to 20' high, they still only weigh as much as "X" number of floors.

Auntiegrav says

Bap33 says

why not give the crazy arabs some credit for having the ability to use the planes AND have some explosives ready to explode??? Why think "inside job" all of a sudden?? It makes no sense to give anyone else any credit. If the buildings were razed, and I happen to think #7 was, (insurance job) then why not let OBL have some credit for it?? Dude was quite the organizer.

Besides, if the crazy arabs did pull all that off, I would bet the saving-of-face issue would force the CIA to sit quiet and pretend. Maybe?

Too bad someone can't ask him about it.

I am one of the folks that do not think OBL went swimming after a bath, some prayer, and clean shave - all after a two tap. I think he #1) was dead long ago, or #2) is in the WPP. I just don't buy his being killed and no physical proof given to the American public. Don't make sense.

I studied "911 truth" rather extensively years ago. I'll start by acknowleging that the subject matter attracts kooks and less-than-critical thinkers who trumpet sketchy evidence and implausible hypotheses with undifferentiated zeal along with hard facts and strong evidence. Alex Jones comes to mind.

The subject matter is serious enough to merit arguing with facts and proof of your own; leave the snarky tinfoil hat/moon landing remarks at the door or be taken less seriously than you are treating the OP.

Personally I have taken an agnostic point of view, awaiting new evidence that has not been forthcoming. There are a cloud of possibilites, from blindsided by it/official story; some neocon foreknowlege/let it happen on purpose; neocons planned it/made it happen on purpose. My own position is a percent chance of these and other theories; I am not beholden to a particular answer awaiting further proof.

I have many questions about the official story. Skeptics who have good answers to these are welcome to share; name callers have already staked out their positions.

Pentagon: large plane, small hole. Where is the footage of the plane coming in? What was on the surveillance tapes quickly confiscated from the gas station and hotel?

Shanksville: Were the alleged cell calls even possible with 2001 equipment? Where did THIS plane go, a small hole in landfill yet burned debris retrieved miles away; pics of alleged hijackers in airport don't match up.

WTC: It really does look like explosions happening below the collapse zone; blueprints appear to rule out compressed air from above. There are 1 or 2 pictures of WTC7 showing damage at the bottom; one looked almost certainly doctored to me. The collapse seemed planned. Much about Larry Silverstein beyond his "pull" remark- galvanic corrosion of towers necessitating dismantling, generous new insurance, also questionable stock and credit card activity.

Generally, PNAC documents, fake OBL pictures, Downing street memos, patriot act point to a conspiracy to cynically benefit after the fact. There was the means, motive, and opportunity for the neocons to "push" this event.

Count me as a serious doubter of the "official story" of 9/11. This is not the same as uncritically believing "conspiracy theories."

Bap33 says

I just want to point out that the same weight was there all the time. It does not matter if the upper "X" number of floors are 1,000' high, or if they are squished down to 20' high, they still only weigh as much as "X" number of floors.

Dude, you REALLY need to bone up on the difference between static load and dynamic load. You're just proving that you conspiracy nuts don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Automan Empire says

Pentagon: large plane, small hole. Where is the footage of the plane coming in? What was on the surveillance tapes quickly confiscated from the gas station and hotel?

I've seen the tape from the pentagon security camera on the web. It wasn't hard to find. I find it hard to believe you weren't able to locate it. Due to the extreme speed of the plane, the wings were instantly folded back and crushed, so the hole left by the plane was roughly the size of the fuselage. And this is the problem with you conspiracy nuts: You ASSUME silly things such as an airplane made of aluminum, plastic, and carbon fiber, when hitting a massive steel or concrete structure, leaving a cartoonish hole the exact size and shape of an airplane, with wings outstretched, without deforming at all, like in an old Three Stooges episode where they jump through a wall and leave holes in the exact outline of their bodies. You have no evidence that planes EVER leave such holes, yet you just ASSUME that they do, and use your incorrect assumption to promote your asinine theories.

The really sad part is that this has been explained time and time again, by experts, yet you would rather take the word of some nutball with a website.

Shanksville: Were the alleged cell calls even possible with 2001 equipment? Where did THIS plane go, a small hole in landfill yet burned debris retrieved miles away; pics of alleged hijackers in airport don't match up.

I too was initially taken in by a flashy website raising a lot of questions about flight 93. But then I started to realize the criticism didn't add up. I did a little research, and discovered that this "debris" found miles away was nothing more than charred bits of paper that had blown in the wind. Pics don't match up? Don't know what you're talking about. You'll have to prove that one.

WTC: It really does look like explosions happening below the collapse zone; blueprints appear to rule out compressed air from above. There are 1 or 2 pictures of WTC7 showing damage at the bottom; one looked almost certainly doctored to me. The collapse seemed planned. Much about Larry Silverstein beyond his "pull" remark- galvanic corrosion of towers necessitating dismantling, generous new insurance, also questionable stock and credit card activity.

Again, this is just the same old nonsense that has been debunked ad infinitum. But it doesn't matter how many times it's debunked, the conspiracy nuts keep trotting it out again and again. There were no explosions - air was forced out of the building as it collapsed. Have you ever seen someone play an accordion? What happens when they squeeze it together? Air comes out. This is no mystery. It's called air pressure. The rest is just armchair physicists who have no clue what they're talking about. It "looks" like it was doctored. It "seemed" planned. And "pull it" - that's so ridiculous it doesn't even deserve a response.

You got nothing - just a bunch of silly questions that have already been answered a million times. We're not making fun of you guys because you ask questions; it's because the questions have already been answered. A thousand years ago, it might not have been that funny if a person believed the Earth was flat. But if someone believes it NOW, it's funny, and they deserve to be ridiculed.

I'm gonna help you conspiracy nuts out. Before you embarrass yourselves any further, read this. It explains every one of your silly conspiracy theory questions. Save us all some time.

http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/faqs_wtctowers.cfm

I'm not a conspiracy nut my friend. I'm just playing along. Relax.

Homeboy is the person who insisted the world was flat when new data, that was not yet mainstream, found that the world was NOT flat.

Bap33 says

I'm not a conspiracy nut my friend. I'm just playing along. Relax.

No, you're just an idiot. I am quite relaxed. In fact I rather enjoy putting conspiracy nuts in their place. Did you google static vs. dynamic load yet? Be sure to get back to me when you do.

KILLERJANE says

Homeboy is the person who insisted the world was flat when new data, that was not yet mainstream, found that the world was NOT flat.

Um, you don't have any new data. It's the same old crap you conspiracy nuts have been harping on for 10 years. Maybe you should give us more of that "common knowledge" LOL.

where was the strategic air command?

coriacci1 says

where was the strategic air command?

Where exactly do you expect it to be?

I've seen the tape from the pentagon security camera on the web. It wasn't hard to find. I find it hard to believe you weren't able to locate it. Due to the extreme speed of the plane, the wings were instantly folded back and crushed

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The most important and secure building in the world, and the only video is 5 frames from a parking gate camera. I'm not talking about that video; we all saw it.

And no, the wings were not instantly folded back. I'm going to leave you there.

I for one, am absolutely certain hijackers flew airplanes into World Trade Centers 1 and 2. Having said that...it's a bit out of the box, but what if it weren't a long, laborious process to arrange a building demolition - but a matter of hours. I would say such technology is inevitable wouldn't you? Yet such a question frames the whole argument. Can you not imagine any reasons for destroying a sensitive financial or government-occupied facility, rather than leaving it exposed and wide open to thousands of rescuers, fireman, policeman, and low ranking military personnel?

What do you suppose the final line of defense of the Pentagon would be, if it were overrun by an enemy, for example? I imagine they would want it destroyed completely. I'm just throwing it out there, because I for one, refuse to look at every issue from only two points of view. There are always alternatives.

Automan Empire says

The most important and secure building in the world, and the only video is 5 frames from a parking gate camera. I'm not talking about that video; we all saw it.

I'll be sure to ask the hijackers to fly the plane slower next time so the camera can pick up more frames. What video were you expecting to see, and what would it contain? You mean the one with George Bush saying, "Ah planned the whole thing, heh, heh."? No matter what evidence you are given, you will always claim there should be more.

And no, the wings were not instantly folded back. I'm going to leave you there.

Oh, right - because it was a massive conspiracy involving thousands of people, none of whom has ever talked about it. Sorry, I forgot.

coriacci1 says

where was the strategic air command?

In your ass, troll.

Probably the most conclusive evidence for there being a conspiracy to bring down the towers outside of OBL's guys is this: in a democracy, it's very hard to go to war. You can't just declare war on an unsuspecting country by fiat, and expect the populace to go for it. In both world wars, America was late in coming to the party because there was no desire for war among the general populace. We had to be seriously provoked (also debatable if those actions were legit) to get us to sign off on a war. In WWI, the Germans were set up to seem like they were trying to get Mexico to go to war against the US, and equip the Mexicans with guns as well. Then congress declared war.
In WWII we had pearl harbor, an event which enraged the populace and inspired warlike feelings. There are still serious questions about how the US government may have conspired to either encourage the japanese to do this or been so neglectful that it sort of had to happen.
So what's a bunch of warmongering power brokers to do when they really want to invade the middle east but need to persuade the public of that necessity?
Things that make you go, "Hmmmm."

Quigley says

in a democracy, it's very hard to go to war. You can't just declare war on an unsuspecting country by fiat, and expect the populace to go for it. In both world wars, America was late in coming to the party because there was no desire for war among the general populace.

You're joking, right? Populations can be easily led into wars by a bit of sabre rattling and media manipulation, most especially when said war doesn't actually involve anybody but the military having to fight. Look at the UK with the Falklands and Iraq. And it's not as if the general public actually has to get out of bed and vote on whether or not to go to war.

Bap33 says

I just want to point out that the same weight was there all the time. It does not matter if the upper "X" number of floors are 1,000' high, or if they are squished down to 20' high, they still only weigh as much as "X" number of floors.

Same mass, not the same force or energy. If one floor fails, and all the floors above it free-fall for 10 feet, and then are suddenly decelerated by the intact floor below, there will be a tremendous downward force.

Drop a bowling ball on your foot from 10 feet. How bad does it hurt? Rest the same bowling ball on top of your foot -- not so bad, huh?

lol .. I know. Really, I do. I was just fartin with Homeboy, but he's got his head stuffed in his ass too deep to see I was just poking fun. So to speak.

But, the falling building is awefully fast for there not to be some possible ground prep-work involved. I say if there was any help on the ground, it was all OBL, not GWB.

Quigley says

So what's a bunch of warmongering power brokers to do when they really want to invade the middle east but need to persuade the public of that necessity?
Things that make you go, "Hmmmm."

You're kidding, right? If you were going to orchestrate a phony attack as a pretext to invade Iraq, wouldn't you make it look like Iraq did it? Why would you make it look like guys from Saudi Arabia? Sorry but that's about the silliest theory I've ever heard.

Bap33 says

lol .. I know. Really, I do. I was just fartin with Homeboy, but he's got his head stuffed in his ass too deep to see I was just poking fun. So to speak.

http://www.youtube.com/v/JwRcbHtq2Ts&start=16

For what its worth, I happen to work in the new 7 World Trade and I don't know anyone in the building who believes any of the conspiracy rubbish. It's fun to read, though--kind of like hearing people in flyover country panicking about terrorism back in the Bush years.

Speaking of which, how is it that people in New York, the only place to actually suffer foreign terrorist attacks, took it cool and just got on with their lives while people at no real risk at all pulled the country into 8 years of "war on terror" imbecility? Just like when they planned to build that Muslim community center around the corner and idiots from all over the country came to protest while New Yorkers were like "WTF? Who gives a crap?"

Sometimes I think the Northeast should secede and form a new, intelligent country while the red states can do whatever the hell they want with their guns and baby Jesus. I can live without corn.

I would miss "Carhenge", though.

interested?

Join us for Groundbreaking 9/11 Anniversary Events
in New York, California and Maryland, September 8-12

http://www.ae911truth.org/

Bap33 says

But, the falling building is awefully fast for there not to be some possible ground prep-work involved. I say if there was any help on the ground, it was all OBL, not GWB.

So this time are you going to act like you're serious again and then when someone shows how wrong you are, pretend you were "just kidding around"? LOL

coriacci1 says

where was the strategic air command?

DIsbanded in 1992 after the end of the cold war. I'm sure that GWB arranged SAC to be disbanded while he was managing the Texas Rangers because when the secret cabal that really runs the country put him in office to attack the twin towers he didn't want SAC to interfere. I'm also sure if I click my heels three times I'll be back in Kansas.

coriacci1 says

interested?

Join us for Groundbreaking 9/11 Anniversary Events

in New York, California and Maryland, September 8-12

http://www.ae911truth.org/

I think you need help. Medical help.

thank you for the the detail. but you know what I meant. what about norad?

Homeboy says

Bap33 says

But, the falling building is awefully fast for there not to be some possible ground prep-work involved. I say if there was any help on the ground, it was all OBL, not GWB.

So this time are you going to act like you're serious again and then when someone shows how wrong you are, pretend you were "just kidding around"? LOL

my good man, have you never spent time on you-tube, reading and watching what the loons dream up that so desperatly want the whole thing to be an inside job by Repulican Americans? If you did/do, you will find they list such things as I have. THey also suggest the planes were just computer generated images. Really weird stuff.

You are getting a stiffy at the thought of having "proved me wrong" on a sentence I told you was not of my thought process nor belief system. I was jesting. What more does it take? You are jumping up and down with glee, not realizing that you are the only one on my side, or shall I say, the side of "reason", that bothers to take these loones serious. You are just as funny as they are. now. LMAO

Now, on the more serious point, how can OBL ground-work be disproved?

Bap33 says

Homeboy says

and the immense weight of the structure caused each floor to successively collapse as all that weight bore down on it

I just want to point out that the same weight was there all the time. It does not matter if the upper "X" number of floors are 1,000' high, or if they are squished down to 20' high, they still only weigh as much as "X" number of floors.

Homeboy said it was due to weight. He was wrong.
Bap33 pointed out weight did not change (other than plane weight minus exploded building and plane mass). He was right.
Homeboy then realized he needed to talk about force and velocity, not mass, so as to explain the energy realeased.
Bap33 laughed and said, "ya, no shit Sherlock, I was just playing along with the loones".
Homeboy does not accept this obvious fact, and does a TouchDown celebration in the endzone ... on a filed with nobody else there ... and an empty grandstand ... in the dark .... ya, you go boy! LMAO

p.s., the weight (that you mentioned) didn't change. Deal with it. If not, then, "the immense weight of the structure caused each floor to successively collapse as all that weight bore down on it" would have resulted in collaps on the day they completed the top floor, or if it was due to the additional weight from the plane contact then it would have happened right afier contact, and not an hour later.

p.s.s Mass accellerated by gravity falls toward the center of earth at 32.2 feet per second, per second. Force is Mass times Velocity. To find the work done look at the time/distance ratio. Don't forget to add the mass increased as the building collapse point moves lower and the pancake area collects more rubble. It is impressive to see just how much work was done to collapse the lower 50 floors so quickly, huh? Good day.

Wow, Bap33 flipped out.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/y5amSe9HlCM

And still trying to argue that stupid point. At least the other conspiracy loons have the balls to take a stand instead of faking they were just "playing along".

The world is flat stupid!

For me, mechanical engineer, involved in NYC high rise commercial real estate development and maintenance, it was obvious from day-one that buildings had controlled demolishing.
Answer; why?, came years later.