patrick.net

kentm says

But recognize that the notion of forming a union is something people do in order to combat an imbalance that is not repairable in any other way. In many cases people are locked in to jobs and exploited because of it. Unions are their attempt to rectify the imbalance.

People are rarely locked into their jobs in this country. We have something called at-will employment. Workers can pretty much walk away anytime they want.

Besides, any worker can become his own boss. Or they can grow his business and become other people's boss.

The moment people believe they are entitled to a good job all is lost.

It's not about "entitlement". You should know that or is it something you just tell yourself to help you feel better? It's about employees earning a decent wage and finding a better way to share in the results of their labors. I can see that your problem is that you've bought into the notion that the "big idea" is the most valuable thing there is, and that the labor to build that idea is worth nothing or as little as you can get away with.

Anyway, if people form a union then why not accept it the same way you accept that companies can fire people "at will"? Because it suits your position and income to think so I suppose... You just like the answers that support your current income, which is fair enough, for small minded people who can't see beyond their immediate circumstances.

Besides, as you say businesses, like yours I suppose, are always free to close down and restart somewhere else, right?

And "at will" is a scam that benefits employers only.

Anyone can quit any job with a couple or a few weeks notice anyway. What "at will" means is that employers can fire anyone at any time for no reason whatsoever with no fear of retaliation for wrongful dismissal. It puts all power into the hands of the employer,it's not something that is a benefit for employees as you seem to be claiming. But that you like this fits in with your general pattern of seeming to support ideas that directly benefit you.

kentm says

And "at will" is a scam that benefits employers only.

Anyone can quit any job with a couple or a few weeks notice anyway.

And I've known, seen and had done to me, employees who simply don't show up one day. You spend a few days trying to make sure they are okay, why didn't they show up, etc. Only to find out, they either got another job or just didn't like the job or whatever, it's amazing the number of people who just don't come to work because they've decided that they've quit, don't tell you, just don't show up.

kentm says

But recognize that the notion of forming a union is something people do in order to combat an imbalance that is not repairable in any other way.

Maybe, but there are just as many people who will join because the reps from the union tell them they can get better wages, be 'protected', etc. Not that they are necessarily be treated unfairly, but the union is looking for more dues and members.

kentm says

It's about employees earning a decent wage and finding a better way to share in the results of their labors.

No. Labor is a commodity. Employees can always earn a satisfactory wage by participating in the right markets. No one is entitlement to a "decent" wage simply by doing a "good" job.

When I was an employee I went to sleep every night with the comforting thought that I had the power to quit at any time. I am just the kind of person who needs a exit strategy for everything.

At-will employment is the greatest system in the world. It benefits everyone.

This is nonsense. So by your "reasoning" unions were never necessary, ever, and in mankind's history, workers have never been exploited ?

Or is it that workers have been exploited (and maybe even are now - especially in places like China), but this is something that in time markets and your beautiful at-will system will fix ?

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure you are just being a troll and you don't even believe that nonsensical jibberish.

But I'm sure you will reassert it, without even a trace of logic or support for your assertion.

If you can't even trace out any kind of thoughtful rationale, but only make empty assertions, then this proves you are espousing nothing more than dogma.

It isn't that workers are entitled to a certain pay. It's that they are entitled to organize, and to use that organization to negotiate pay that is more fair.

What's fair ?

That's a good question, given globalization and cheaper labor market elsewhere. But one thing that isn't really even debatable is that our economy will continue to be significantly (not totally) driven by domestic consumption. And therefore we need our citizens to have income beyond just bare needs. And meeting only those bare needs is the level that wages are naturally drawn toward because of globalization and international competition.

This in turn causes workers to complain about government workers being paid a level that was once considered not so great. "Their benefits are too good !" "Their union is evil !"

This feeling out there is the sound of wages in general being ratcheted lower. I'm amazed at how many people can not comprehend that.

Is it possible that sometimes forcing pay to be higher in an industy, brings better workers in, and improves that industries global competitiveness ?

What comes first, the chicken or the egg ?

What comes first better products or better workers who are attracted to the industry because of a union and decent pay ?

See Germany. It can be argued that it's more democratic to give lower level workers more of a say in certain policies, including the way profits are distributed.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

marcus says

So by your "reasoning" unions were never necessary, ever, and in the mankind's history, workers have never been exploited ?

So long as people choose to be exploited they will be exploited. By these people or those.