patrick.net

Union is a thing of the past. It is nothing more than labor collusion.

Outlaw unions! With at-will employment, workers already have the best protection possible: I QUIT!

Peter P says

With at-will employment, workers already have the best protection possible: I QUIT!

That's real logical (not).

For the simplicity of making the point, say you have a universe with a few owners/bosses and 100 potential workers. And the total number of jobs is 90. What's to keep the owner bosses from keeping pay too low, especially at the low end ?

(Not taking in to account the fact that the owners businesses depend on the workers having disposable income to spend at their businesses)

At least in relatively low skill jobs, as long as the ratio of workers to jobs is high enough, quitting doesn't give you leverage.

Even for some skilled jobs, if there are a sufficient number of people interested or willing to do the job, then quitting only serves to bring a less qualified replacement in.

Hey it's government service work right ? We like to argue that government can't do things well, right ? So what's the problem with making government work less well paid ? It's a win/win ?

Bring in the private sector, right ?

With respect to public education, and teachers, what "the owners" are trying to do to is pay teachers even less than they are now. Even though as it is now, a high percentage of teachers don't last more than 5 years.

This isn't rocket science. But I guess it is closer to being rocket science than the typical right wing union hater is to being a rocket scientist.

zzyzzx says

They don't make low pay though.

I can use google too. What, did you google "highest paying police jobs" ?

Of course state police jobs pay more too.

Here for a little more balance.

http://policelink.monster.com/benefits/articles/9998-best-and-worst-places-to-be-a-cop

The source is an industry site with no bias one way or the other. Oh,...I see big surprise. New Jersey is the highest.

marcus says

For the simplicity of making the point, say you have a universe with a few owners/bosses and 100 potential workers. And the total number of jobs is 90. What's to keep the owner bosses from keeping pay too low, especially at the low end ?

Easy. The workers can become the bosses.

I work at the port of LA, through which the majority of Chinese imports travel to get to US markets. Every job here, outside of management, is a union job. Unions hold jobs here to higher wages, good benefits, and safe working standards. This directly impacts shipping costs on a per container scale, adding maybe 30% to the cost of an item you buy at Walmart or target or anywhere hat sells Chinese goods. If this area was non union, wages would be halved, benefits would be sketchy, and the cost of goods could drop another 15% or more.
This would be a terrible thing for America. Right now, the high union wages amount to the only tariff paid by importers, the only reason the few American manufacturers left here can compete at all! It's also a big funnel of money into he surrounding community, making possible all manner of service industry (doctors included) jobs, and providing a vast market of people with money to buy product.
This has made for a strong economy.
Unions made it possible.
The rest of you can spend an extra couple of dollars on that throw pillow.

On the contrary, I believe in global single-market capitalism. If we remove all tariffs, everybody will become better off in the long run. Although China can sell to us, we can sell to them too.

Any trade barrier impedes the functioning of the market, and this will manifest itself as distortions somewhere else.

There really ought not be borders for people and goods.

zzyzzx says

Kevin says

These people who claim to want to keep jobs in america truly mean that -- they just believe that those jobs should pay about 50 cents an hour and provide no benefits.

That's not true. Plenty of times when made in USA stuff was still in the stores you would see competing made in China stuff at the same price. Which to me implies that someone is making a huge profit off the imported stuff instead of passing along the savings. Since that is generally the case, I would think that it should be easy enough to make stuff here without raising pricing much at current us wages.

Right now I am looking to buy some tires, and it's really not much of a price difference to get something domestic either.

Yes, there are many industries where Americans can be competitive. They're the ones that don't require tons of low-skilled manual labor.

Expecting generic "factory jobs" to make a comeback in the US is stupid and pointless.

We should permanently peg minimum wage to $0.00 and we will find out the true value of labor.

zzyzzx says

I hope that in the absence of unions, companies will be less likely to move jobs overseas. Nothing seems to push jobs out of the us quicker than unions.

I always told my wife that if I EVER built a company big enough that my employees joined/formed a union. I'd shut the thing down the next day, fortunately none of my companies have ever gotten that big, but I won't deal with a union. I try to treat my employees fairly, if they want to force me to do something (afterall it is my money and my rear end on the line if the damn company fails), I'll shut the thing down. I'm not forcing anyone to work there, if what I'm asking seems so unreasonable to them, then quit or I will and take those jobs with me.

If unions are allowed to take collective actions then companies should also be allowed to collude against consumers.

Employers are consumers of labor.

Weak. Extremely weak.

Peter P says

Easy. The workers can become the bosses.

Now you support socialism?

Peter P says

If unions are allowed to take collective actions then companies should also be allowed to collude against consumers.

Employers are consumers of labor.

Ha ha ha. Not sure what else to say about that comment. Stupid from the get go. To begin with what do you mean when you write "allowed"?

Who's "allowing" (or put another way: "regulating") who can speak to whom and what they can discuss & organize about? So you ARE for gov regulation then, as long as it suppresses what you don't like?...

I bet you didn't even think about that power structure you've presented - because you've totally internalized it - until I mentioned it.

Get your house in order before spouting off on these subjects.

And mmarvel: good for you then, if what you say is true. Treat your people fairly and there won't be a need for them to form a union to force them to do so. I think thats fine.

But recognize that the notion of forming a union is something people do in order to combat an imbalance that is not repairable in any other way. In many cases people are locked in to jobs and exploited because of it. Unions are their attempt to rectify the imbalance.

The only part of your post that I find problematic is your smugness about the power you wield over the people who's lives depend and are affected by your choices, and the apparent whimsical attitude you have toward them.

Recognize also that a small potatoes business with very limited reach and power within local economy is not the same as a major player.

kentm says

But recognize that the notion of forming a union is something people do in order to combat an imbalance that is not repairable in any other way. In many cases people are locked in to jobs and exploited because of it. Unions are their attempt to rectify the imbalance.

People are rarely locked into their jobs in this country. We have something called at-will employment. Workers can pretty much walk away anytime they want.

Besides, any worker can become his own boss. Or they can grow his business and become other people's boss.

The moment people believe they are entitled to a good job all is lost.

It's not about "entitlement". You should know that or is it something you just tell yourself to help you feel better? It's about employees earning a decent wage and finding a better way to share in the results of their labors. I can see that your problem is that you've bought into the notion that the "big idea" is the most valuable thing there is, and that the labor to build that idea is worth nothing or as little as you can get away with.

Anyway, if people form a union then why not accept it the same way you accept that companies can fire people "at will"? Because it suits your position and income to think so I suppose... You just like the answers that support your current income, which is fair enough, for small minded people who can't see beyond their immediate circumstances.

Besides, as you say businesses, like yours I suppose, are always free to close down and restart somewhere else, right?

And "at will" is a scam that benefits employers only.

Anyone can quit any job with a couple or a few weeks notice anyway. What "at will" means is that employers can fire anyone at any time for no reason whatsoever with no fear of retaliation for wrongful dismissal. It puts all power into the hands of the employer,it's not something that is a benefit for employees as you seem to be claiming. But that you like this fits in with your general pattern of seeming to support ideas that directly benefit you.

kentm says

And "at will" is a scam that benefits employers only.

Anyone can quit any job with a couple or a few weeks notice anyway.

And I've known, seen and had done to me, employees who simply don't show up one day. You spend a few days trying to make sure they are okay, why didn't they show up, etc. Only to find out, they either got another job or just didn't like the job or whatever, it's amazing the number of people who just don't come to work because they've decided that they've quit, don't tell you, just don't show up.

kentm says

But recognize that the notion of forming a union is something people do in order to combat an imbalance that is not repairable in any other way.

Maybe, but there are just as many people who will join because the reps from the union tell them they can get better wages, be 'protected', etc. Not that they are necessarily be treated unfairly, but the union is looking for more dues and members.

kentm says

It's about employees earning a decent wage and finding a better way to share in the results of their labors.

No. Labor is a commodity. Employees can always earn a satisfactory wage by participating in the right markets. No one is entitlement to a "decent" wage simply by doing a "good" job.

When I was an employee I went to sleep every night with the comforting thought that I had the power to quit at any time. I am just the kind of person who needs a exit strategy for everything.

At-will employment is the greatest system in the world. It benefits everyone.

This is nonsense. So by your "reasoning" unions were never necessary, ever, and in mankind's history, workers have never been exploited ?

Or is it that workers have been exploited (and maybe even are now - especially in places like China), but this is something that in time markets and your beautiful at-will system will fix ?

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure you are just being a troll and you don't even believe that nonsensical jibberish.

But I'm sure you will reassert it, without even a trace of logic or support for your assertion.

If you can't even trace out any kind of thoughtful rationale, but only make empty assertions, then this proves you are espousing nothing more than dogma.

It isn't that workers are entitled to a certain pay. It's that they are entitled to organize, and to use that organization to negotiate pay that is more fair.

What's fair ?

That's a good question, given globalization and cheaper labor market elsewhere. But one thing that isn't really even debatable is that our economy will continue to be significantly (not totally) driven by domestic consumption. And therefore we need our citizens to have income beyond just bare needs. And meeting only those bare needs is the level that wages are naturally drawn toward because of globalization and international competition.

This in turn causes workers to complain about government workers being paid a level that was once considered not so great. "Their benefits are too good !" "Their union is evil !"

This feeling out there is the sound of wages in general being ratcheted lower. I'm amazed at how many people can not comprehend that.

Is it possible that sometimes forcing pay to be higher in an industy, brings better workers in, and improves that industries global competitiveness ?

What comes first, the chicken or the egg ?

What comes first better products or better workers who are attracted to the industry because of a union and decent pay ?

See Germany. It can be argued that it's more democratic to give lower level workers more of a say in certain policies, including the way profits are distributed.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

marcus says

So by your "reasoning" unions were never necessary, ever, and in the mankind's history, workers have never been exploited ?

So long as people choose to be exploited they will be exploited. By these people or those.