patrick.net

Bellingham Bill says

leo707 says

Automatic weapons are rarely used in mass shootings.

That did not refute what you were replying to.

I was responding to pointless rhetoric.

OK, sure...let's ban all machine guns and automatic weapons.

This would be a great help, except they are never used in these mass shootings.

The "assault weapons" used in these types of shootings are not even "real" assault weapons, traditionally to be considered an assault weapon the gun had to be capable of automatic fire. The assault weapons used are primarily aesthetic third-cousins to real assault weapons minus the more lethal feature of being an actual automatic weapon.

Bellingham Bill says

The issue is the toxic mix of insane people, glorification of "tactical" firearms

It is a toxic mix of insane people and firearms. I doubt changing the aesthetics of the available weapons would prevent any shootings.

FortWayne says

It is a toxic mix of insane people and firearms.

It was a toxic mix of insanity and people.

leo707 says

I doubt chancing the aesthetics of the available weapons would prevent any shootings.

And I think you're wrong about that.

The insane people who want to kill people also want to be cool doing it.

There's also magazine capacity limits we need to regulate, too, of course.

Well, if you think having these toy guns around is more important than people not getting killed by them, you're free to disagree.

I just think you're insane -- the prototypical "gun nut" -- too, then.

FortWayne says

You can't remove millions of weapons that are everywhere. All you'll accomplish with a gun ban is innocent law abiding civilians being disarmed, while insane and criminals will have no problem being armed.

I'm not proposing "removing" them overnight. This will take decades.

It took decades to make the mess of a society we haven now, so we're not going to be able to fix it any faster.

And if you noticed, or paid a little bit more attention, you'd notice that in majority of these crimes, assault weapons weren't used.

That's irrelevant. Enough are.

The loss of new recreational firearms is not the end of the world. You can buy air-powered replicas like in Japan if you love them so much.

The use case of defending yourself with an assault weapon is idiotic. Stop bringing it up, since it's just gun-nut fantasy that has no bearing with today's reality.

And the gun-nut fantasy of liberating the country from .gov with their assault weapons is even further into the fever swamp you guys inhabit.

I don't have the numbers, but DC had a ban on handguns for a long time, yet it had the highest murder rate per capita in the nation. When the Supreme Court struck down the handgun ban, the murder rate actually declined. How does that make gun control = less murders?

Quigley says

I don't have the numbers, but DC had a ban on handguns for a long time, yet it had the highest murder rate per capita in the nation. When the Supreme Court struck down the handgun ban, the murder rate actually declined. How does that make gun control = less murders?

Considering DC is a smallish city surrounded by Virginia and Maryland, it obviously doesn't have the ability to control access to guns effectively since someone can just take a metro across the Patomic to a gun show in good ol' Virginia. You have to look at country-level data to make useful comparisons I'd say.

bdrasin says

Quigley says

I don't have the numbers, but DC had a ban on handguns for a long time, yet it had the highest murder rate per capita in the nation. When the Supreme Court struck down the handgun ban, the murder rate actually declined. How does that make gun control = less murders?

Considering DC is a smallish city surrounded by Virginia and Maryland, it obviously doesn't have the ability to control access to guns effectively since someone can just take a metro across the Patomic to a gun show in good ol' Virginia. You have to look at country-level data to make useful comparisons I'd say.

Country level data are tainted by demographic, cultural, and other factors.

Peter P says

bdrasin says

Quigley says

I don't have the numbers, but DC had a ban on handguns for a long time, yet it had the highest murder rate per capita in the nation. When the Supreme Court struck down the handgun ban, the murder rate actually declined. How does that make gun control = less murders?

Considering DC is a smallish city surrounded by Virginia and Maryland, it obviously doesn't have the ability to control access to guns effectively since someone can just take a metro across the Patomic to a gun show in good ol' Virginia. You have to look at country-level data to make useful comparisons I'd say.

Country level data are tainted by demographic, cultural, and other factors.

Yes, these factors present difficulty in interpreting the data but the facts are so completely unambiguous that it doesn't matter.

It's been several days and I still can't find any Sandy Hook Shooting related Pedobear pics. You people are disappointing me.

zzyzzx says

It's been several days and I still can't find any Sandy Hook Shooting related Pedobear pics. You people are disappointing me.

unacceptable speech.

FILTH!

Your disgusting.

Filthy disgusting. Words fail me.

There is enough information in your post to have you arrested.

"Pedobear is an Internet meme that became popular through the imageboard 4chan.[1] As the name suggests ("pedo" being short for "pedophile"), it is portrayed as a pedophilic bear.[2] It is a concept used to mock pedophiles or people who have an interest in minors or jailbait. The bear image has been likened to bait used to lure children or as a mascot for pedophiles.[3][4][5]"

Bellingham Bill says

leo707 says

I doubt chancing the aesthetics of the available weapons would prevent any shootings.

And I think you're wrong about that.

The insane people who want to kill people also want to be cool doing it.

...

I just think you're insane -- the prototypical "gun nut" -- too, then.

I think you are insane if you think that limiting the availability to "uncool" guns would put any dent in mass shootings. You do realize that two of the four guns used in the Columbine shootings were 30 year old shotguns? Right?

Yes, lets usher in the next era of peace and require all guns to be licensed by hello kitty.

Feel better?

zzyzzx says

It's been several days and I still can't find any Sandy Hook Shooting related Pedobear pics. You people are disappointing me.

You fucking disgust me.

leo707 says

zzyzzx says

It's been several days and I still can't find any Sandy Hook Shooting related Pedobear pics. You people are disappointing me.

You fucking disgust me.

Unbelievable, just when you thought the right couldn't get any worse.

The filth this board spews!

OUTRAGEOUS!

Call it Crazy says

Your stance is that we need to have new laws, regulations and bans on assault weapons. By looking at this data, that's not where the problem lies...

The problem lies in the people behind the guns!

High caliber, semi-automatic handguns are a HUGE problem. Just ask inner-city cops. Easy to conceal and easy to fire 20 rounds in 20 seconds. (you never hear about drive by knifings.)

Automatic weapons are pretty much gone except for the wacko militia types in Idaho, Montana etc. I think machine guns, etc, have been outlawed for a long time.

Anyway, with all of your statistics you seem to be unintentionally making the case that we should go the way of Britain and pretty much ban them altogether.

Look, I understand the problem is complicated with no complete answers. But there are steps that could be taken to minimize gun violence. The fight against the gun industry will have to be like the fight against the cigarette industry. You can have your gun (or cigarette) but it is going to cost $$$$. That money will start to pay for the expensive solutions that are needed.

leo707 says

You do realize that two of the four guns used in the Columbine shootings were 30 year old shotguns?

they would have bought cooler guns if they could.

I rest my fucking case.

Bellingham Bill says

they would have bought cooler guns if they could.

No argument there, but the inability to get cool guns most certainly did not stop them.

I like the pink guns idea.

leo707 says

Yes, lets usher in the next era of peace and require all guns to be licensed by hello kitty.

That's actually not a bad idea. Assault weapons should be the ones in garish colors, not the harmless water guns.

You can buy any "airsoft" replica you want in Japan, and they don't require the stupid orange muzzles.

Maybe around 20% of the problem is that walking around like Rambo is too attractive to unstable people.

It's not the entire issue, but it contributes. Along with the copy-cat element, the fun people get now playing murder simulation video games.

"A woman told CNN affiliate KOIN that she saw a man wearing a hockey mask jogging through Macy's and wielding an assault rifle."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/11/us/oregon-mall-shooting/index.html

http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/law3a.htm

" ... we are stating in no uncertain terms that we have
'zero tolerance' for the sexual exploitation of children."
Senator Orin Hatch

Call it Crazy says

But, the more troubling thing is that the reporting has shown that ALL of the shooters in the past shootings over the years either have mental health issues, treatment or on prescription SSRI drugs...

What's your point? 10 percent of the population take SSRIs. You want to lock up 10% of the population in mental institutions, just so you can have your fucking gun? Fuck you.

The NRA will dig in and nothing will change. Now if 27 politicians were killed, they have a new bill tough on firearms ownership passed in a week.

TechGromit says

The NRA will dig in and nothing will change. Now if 27 politicians were killed, they have a new bill tough on firearms ownership passed in a week.

Politicians... some... allready have someone with a gun next to them.... so they have no worry... hmmm except when someone tried to shoot Reagan.

Call it Crazy says

There have been 435 murders in a 10 month period in one city, assumingly, by handguns.

Where's the outrage from the population to these 435 deaths????

Your stance is that we need to have new laws, regulations and bans on assault weapons. By looking at this data, that's not where the problem lies...

There is a lot of outrage at all gun deaths. And do you know how many of the handguns were semi-automatic assault weapons? I'm betting the vast majority were.

What happened last Friday is a STARTING POINT for a larger discussion of ALL gun violence in America. There will be the topic changers (cars kill more!) and the double downers (We need MORE guns!).

It's all bullshit. We have more guns and more gun related injuries then any other nation on earth. More guns won't solve the problem. It may take 30 years to ween us from our gun addiction, but "a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".

Call it Crazy says

There certainly is... but your "group" wants to keep pointing at the "gun" as the problem. That's not where the problem lies.... You just keep harping that the "evil gun" needs to go away and new laws have to be institute

More guns = more gun deaths.
Less guns = less gun deaths.

Simple formula proved over and over again. Changing human nature's tendency towards violence is difficult. Changing the tools used to act out the violence, much easier.

You keep harping on the "mass shootings" when there are a mass of shootings every single day. You implied there was not enough outrage over the other shooting deaths.
Call it Crazy says

There have been 435 murders in a 10 month period in one city, assumingly, by handguns.

Where's the outrage from the population to these 435 deaths????

I'm saying Sandy Hook is starting a conversation at minimizing all gun deaths.

Call it Crazy says

So, in this past instance, is it the guns fault for this tragedy or could the individual person be at fault?

And if he'd only had a knife? It would still be his fault but the result would be far better.

In the end, your "group" will finally admit that guns are a problem but, hey, there are far too many out there in the hands of bad guys to do anything about it. Got keep selling guns to the good guys. Insanity.

TechGromit says

Now if 27 politicians were killed, they have a new bill tough on firearms ownership passed in a week.

+1.

These kids weren't 1% Job Creators, so we should just move on.

Vicente says

TechGromit says

Now if 27 politicians were killed, they have a new bill tough on firearms ownership passed in a week.

+1.

These kids weren't 1% Job Creators, so we should just move on.

The issue right now is that we're all outraged and feel powerless to do anything... so we demand change. In a few weeks it will all blow over and we'll bury our heads in the sand.

This issue isn't about guns, it's about mentally ill people owning guns. And if we were to ban all people who have been diagnosed from owning weapons, they would find another way to get 'em.

Still can't get the image of some of my high school teachers strapped with a glock out of my mind. It would be like the scene of Office Space where Michael Bolton is listeting to gangsta rap on his way to work.

What if a teachers pulls that scene from Pulp Fiction - "Say "what" motherfucker one more time, say it!"

Call it Crazy says

rooemoore says

More guns = more gun deaths.

Less guns = less gun deaths.

FALSE

Go back and do so research when we had the assault weapons ban and see if gun deaths went down.

So your point is a country with no guns would have as much gun violence as a country will 300 million guns? Of course not.

Your point is that Americans are by nature more prone to violence than other countries and so even if we took away the guns we would still find a way to kill each other at the same rate? Nope.

The research you are asking me to do -- the stuff you have posted here only shows that gun deaths did not go up when the assault ban was lifted.

In other words, the assault ban did not keep enough guns out of the market. The assault ban was not effective. But gun deaths continue. So why not look to countries like Britain where strict gun laws have reduced gun deaths?

In everything you post your unintentionally arguing for a complete gun ban. Call it Crazy says

elliemae says

This issue isn't about guns, it's about mentally ill people owning guns. And if we were to ban all people who have been diagnosed from owning weapons, they would find another way to get 'em.

BINGO!!!

Like this "bingo". Riddle me this: If there were no guns to get how would they "find another way to get 'em"? Make them in their basements?

To which we finally come back to your real argument, that there are already too many guns out there, there is the 2nd amendment, and the NRA, so strict gun laws wouldn't work.

I say it is time we try.

Banning X does not make X go away.

The real world is not patnet. Guns are not like Shrek.

Call it Crazy says

elliemae says

This issue isn't about guns, it's about mentally ill people owning guns. And if we were to ban all people who have been diagnosed from owning weapons, they would find another way to get 'em.

Yes it is about gun control and the the President agrees.

Lets suppose, for a (very brief) moment, that we ban guns. All guns, doesn't matter which ones. Shotguns, rifles, pistols, little bitty derringers, you name it, we ban it. Paintball guns too, because they can be lethal if given the opportunity. Fake guns, rubber guns (used in acting, for example), starter's pistols... All of them.

Anyone with a gun has to turn it in immediately. Doesn't matter if they have animals and are afraid that they'll be killed by critters (like me), doesn't matter if they work in prisons and are working to ensure the prisoners don't overtake the staff, doesn't matter if they are police officers, ban them guns.

Do you honestly believe that everyone will turn them in? Or, isn't it more likely that they will become highly valued on the black market and the only people who don't own guns are the law-abiding citizens?

Let's imagine that for a moment we ban assault riffles again and with large clips and mags.

That's a start. Not the solution, but a start.

Let's imagine for a moment that we can barcode every bullet just like every other item forsale in the world.

Limit the ammo.

elliemae says

Lets suppose, for a (very brief) moment, that we ban guns. All guns, doesn't matter which ones. Shotguns, rifles, pistols, little bitty derringers, you name it, we ban it. Paintball guns too, because they can be lethal if given the opportunity. Fake guns, rubber guns (used in acting, for example), starter's pistols... All of them.

Anyone with a gun has to turn it in immediately. Doesn't matter if they have animals and are afraid that they'll be killed by critters (like me), doesn't matter if they work in prisons and are working to ensure the prisoners don't overtake the staff, doesn't matter if they are police officers, ban them guns.

Do you honestly believe that everyone will turn them in? Or, isn't it more likely that they will become highly valued on the black market and the only people who don't own guns are the law-abiding citizens?

For similar reasons progressives thought banning alcohol would fix all ills of the society. The American public is now older and wiser.

Progressives thinks progress is a virtue in and of itself, so all starts are good starts.

How laughable is that?

Then we laugh together.

crying? about what? loss of innocent life? ready to talk abortion? no? big suprize. yawn.

To 121212: Then its just me laughing at your superior intellect.

One thing is for sure this will not be the last tragedy, unfortunately, but the tide is moving and it's moving towards far stricter control of firearms.

we may be losing, that is a true statement.

Your side has amassed a collection of deviants, social misfits, druggies, and malcontents. You're a rabid swarm of locus, like nothing this world has ever seen. And your progressive liberal leftist marching orders came through Sol Alinsky, right from Satan himself: Destroy the Christian soul of America. Even the Bible says our side loses to your side - eventually. But, in the meanwhile, we shall fight the good fight. Game on.

Life is life, and murder is murder.