patrick.net

War is waste, but it is sadly the only way ambitious projects get funded.

We never would have gone to the moon if the government didn't think it was a strategic advantage.

Neil degrasse Tyson wrote a whole book of essays on this subject.

Kevin says

War is waste, but it is sadly the only way ambitious projects get funded.

The ancient pyramids were not funded by war. (Granted, slave labor was a big part of it, but that's another issue.)

I do not accept that we are utterly incapable of funding large scale projects without a war behind those projects. But even if we cannot fund large scale projects, China most certainly can. China builds entire cities for shits and giggles. If we're unwilling to fund research, technological advancement, and infrastructure for any reason but war, then we should get use to speaking Chinese.

China also only funds things for war. Their entire national r&d budget is a part of their military.

The Race to the Moon a great example of a non-military program that produced many of the same results that massive military spending generates, without the war.

A Race to Mars program would be a great way of enhancing US prestige, finding employment for our glut of STEM grads, and generating countless useful technologies.

China has built entire cities for purposes other than war. China most certainly invests in R&D to acquire economic advantages. Just look at China's research into energy: China Leading Global Race to Make Clean Energy

China, unlike America, realizes that the wars of the 21st century will be economic wars, not military wars. These wars will be won by dominating technologies and markets. To China, economic security is national security. The American government, in contrast, is still thinking with a Medieval mindset. The last time a country fought a war using the last war's tactics, France was overran by Germany almost immediately.

Yeah China spends trillions in new highways, high speed rail, discounts to their exporters etc.

We spent trillions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

What if we had spent those squandered trillions on our decaying infrastructure?
Fix a bunch of shit, jobs galore. It seems like it would have been an easy concept to sell. What incredible forces are deployed against common sense.

thunderlips11 says

The Race to the Moon a great example of a non-military program that produced many of the same results that massive military spending generates, without the war.

Yeah, but it was still essentially a means of fighting the cold war, so it's not the best example. Eliminating smallpox, creating the electric grid, and the Internet (not Darpanet) are much better examples.

Yeah, people will try to claim that the Internet rose from Arpanet/Darpanet, but that's a muddled view of history. In reality, the Internet as we know it started in the 1990s when restrictions on network development were removed largely due to Al Gore, the WWW (HTTP and HTML) were invented by Tim Berners-Lee, and several networking technologies mostly from Xerox PARC including Ethernet. Yes, we should give credit to the DoD for TCP/IP, but that's just part of the Internet, and actually is a bad defacto standard (ISO OSI Seven Layer system is better).

The Internet as we know it today is really a product of the 1990s with some parts having been developed, but not really assembled together, from the 1980s and 1970s. And, the most essential contribution was from Berners-Lee.

Dan8267 says

China has built entire cities for purposes other than war. China most certainly invests in R&D to acquire economic advantages. Just look at China's research into energy: China Leading Global Race to Make Clean Energy

China, unlike America, realizes that the wars of the 21st century will be economic wars, not military wars. These wars will be won by dominating technologies and markets. To China, economic security is national security. The American government, in contrast, is still thinking with a Medieval mindset. The last time a country fought a war using the last war's tactics, France was overran by Germany almost immediately.

China builds empty cities and unused highways to nowhere in order yo appear as a financial powerhouse. That has nothing to do with r&d.

Ask any Chinese researcher about getting a grant sometime.

Your missing the point. Again,

China has also leapfrogged the West in the last two years to emerge as the world’s largest manufacturer of solar panels. And the country is pushing equally hard to build nuclear reactors and the most efficient types of coal power plants.

These efforts to dominate renewable energy technologies raise the prospect that the West may someday trade its dependence on oil from the Mideast for a reliance on solar panels, wind turbines and other gear manufactured in China.

I'm not saying China is doing science for the sake of science. I'm saying China is taking the technological lead because economic power is the political and military power of the 21st century.

thunderlips11 says

A Race to Mars program would be a great way of enhancing US prestige, finding employment for our glut of STEM grads, and generating countless useful technologies.

I'd rather see those STEM grads working on eliminating all STDs and male pattern baldness.

New Renter says

I'd rather see those STEM grads working on eliminating all STDs and male pattern baldness.

And ass hair. For a friend.

Dan8267 says

New Renter says

I'd rather see those STEM grads working on eliminating all STDs and male pattern baldness.

And ass hair. For a friend.

My friend science has already provided temporary solutions for that problem long ago:

And lasers can remove hair permanently.

Let your "friend" know its safe to finally wear those assless chaps he put in the closet back in the early 80's

New Renter says

thunderlips11 says

A Race to Mars program would be a great way of enhancing US prestige, finding employment for our glut of STEM grads, and generating countless useful technologies.

I'd rather see those STEM grads working on eliminating all STDs and male pattern baldness.

Lets add the ability to spend a lifetime sitting on the couch drinking beer, eating pork rinds, watching TV and yet at 65+ have the body of an 18- 24 year old who spends 8 hrs a day working hard at the gym.

Lets apply STEM employees to figure out a way we can ALL live the French dream of working only 3 hrs a day yet still achieve a comfortable modern standard of living.

At a minimum lets figure out how to make telecommuting a reality so all those software engineers don't needlessly waste time in the car nor clog up the roads here for others.

Or how about a paperless office that is in fact paperless?

Lots of things to accomplish here on Earth before squandering blood and resources on a race to Mars.

New Renter says

My friend science has already provided temporary solutions for that problem long ago:

Someone already tried that and wrote about his experience in this classic Craigslist post.

Dan8267 says

New Renter says

My friend science has already provided temporary solutions for that problem long ago:

Someone already tried that and wrote about his experience in this classic Craigslist post.

True, sometimes scientific progress can be messy.

Perhaps if the poster had used a better quality razor or a chemical process (Nair) as well as silk boxers his ass would have been more comfortable.

Do women have comparable problems when getting a Brazilian? Maybe an ass waxing would have worked out better.

Don't worry Dan, your "friend" has lots of options.

New Renter says

Lets apply STEM employees to figure out a way we can ALL live the French dream of working only 3 hrs a day yet still achieve a comfortable modern standard of living.

I think this one is more of a political problem than a technological one.

I think we also should do Mars, simply because we can. The idea that something awesome that is feasible but isn't getting done bothers me.

New Renter says

thunderlips11 says

A Race to Mars program would be a great way of enhancing US prestige, finding employment for our glut of STEM grads, and generating countless useful technologies.

I'd rather see those STEM grads working on eliminating all STDs and male pattern baldness.

We could have done both for less than the cost of the Iraq war. Please don't fall into the too common politicians' trap of pitting one field of useful research against another. The false choice between medical research and physics research is like the false choice between liberty and security. Either way, politicians are trying to get you to trade ashes for trees, hot air for a cool breeze, because what they're selling has a higher markup for their patronage network.

Just as the worst products are advertised on TV - because it's the only way to get you to buy them - so too the worst products have the biggest lobbying budgets, for the same reason.

As Peter P commented earlier, good companies make good products and sell them at a profit; great companies sell crap. How much have you paid for 'designer water' or a chemical-laden beverage with some coloring and addictive sweetener and CO2 bubbles to make you more flatulent? How much did people pay PhRMA for Vioxx ($2/pill plus the cost of strokes, for Hospital Association revenue) compared to equally effective analgesics that cost 10 cents or less? How much will you pay for Obamacare, while people in other countries live longer with less than half as much medical spending?

When you factor in the costs of diabetes etc, we could get to Mars and cure diseases for less than what we spend on junk food, let alone war.

Dan8267 says

Your missing the point. Again,

China has also leapfrogged the West in the last two years to emerge as the world’s largest manufacturer of solar panels. And the country is pushing equally hard to build nuclear reactors and the most efficient types of coal power plants.

These efforts to dominate renewable energy technologies raise the prospect that the West may someday trade its dependence on oil from the Mideast for a reliance on solar panels, wind turbines and other gear manufactured in China.

I'm not saying China is doing science for the sake of science. I'm saying China is taking the technological lead because economic power is the political and military power of the 21st century.

And I'm saying you're wrong because the us spends many multiples of China on r&d every year. We have the most Nobel prize winners, most frequently cited research papers, 30 of the top 50 STEM universities, and most innovative tech companies.

Meanwhile, China us full of degree mills that publish research that wouldn't be acceptable in us highschools, plagiarizes European research papers, and routinely steals IP for its domestic market because it can't develop its own.

China isn't anywhere close to "taking the lead". They've got at least a dozen countries to surpass before they can even think about it.

WTF is so awesome about sending a human to Mars? What is it that a human can do over there that a decent robot can't do except die a horrible death?

Remember the Mars Climate Orbiter?

What exactly have we gotten out of the ISS aside from 24/7 stock footage for the most boring channel on earth? The shuttle?

I'm not against space exploration, I just want to see it done right.

New Renter says

What is it that a human can do over there that a decent robot can't do except die a horrible death?

+1

There's nothing for us on Mars other than rocks. We've got plenty of rocks here.

Bellingham Bill says

There's nothing for us on Mars other than rocks.

You're forgetting the sand. And the evidence of water! That's practically beachfront! Imagine, a whole planet of beachfront property! And none of it is signed up with a Realtor(tm) yet. The first Realtors(tm) to land there could get an exclusive listing for an entire planet of beachfront property! Every Realtor(tm) deserves this opportunity. Every Realtor should be sent to Mars as soon as technology allows.

New Renter says

What is it that a human can do over there that a decent robot can't do except die a horrible death?

Please see above...

curious2 says

You're forgetting the sand. And the evidence of water! That's practically beachfront! Imagine, a whole planet of beachfront property! And none of it is signed up with a Realtor(tm) yet. The first Realtors(tm) to land there could get an exclusive listing for an entire planet of beachfront property! Every Realtor(tm) deserves this opportunity. Every Realtor should be sent to Mars as soon as technology allows.

See this is what I'm talking about! The moon is closer, also has sand and evidence of water. It'd be cheaper to send the realtors there.

New Renter says

The moon is closer....

that's the issue though - it's too close - you can see the earth from there, so they might find their way back.

New Renter says

What exactly have we gotten out of the ISS aside from 24/7 stock footage for the most boring channel on earth?

Just wait until Soylent Red (spoiler alert: "Soylent Red is Realtors(tm)") and the first season of Survivor: Realtors(tm) on Mars! It will be cross-branded with CSI: Mars and the hard-hitting Fox News Special Report, Mars: When Realtors(tm) Attack!

curious2 says

New Renter says

The moon is closer....

that's the issue though - it's too close - you can see the earth from there, so they might find their way back.

New Renter says

What exactly have we gotten out of the ISS aside from 24/7 stock footage for the most boring channel on earth?

Just wait until Soylent Red (spoiler alert: "Soylent Red is Realtors(tm)") and the first season of Survivor: Realtors(tm) on Mars! It will be cross-branded with CSI: Mars and the hard-hitting Fox News Special Report, Mars: When Realtors(tm) Attack!

So you shoot for the moon, miss and they end up on a one way trip into the sun. Still cheaper than Mars.

Bellingham Bill says

There's nothing for us on Mars other than rocks. We've got plenty of rocks here.

Until some county like China claims the planet for their own and starts a colony there. Then all of a sudden it will become a national security issue to grab up as much extra-terrestrial real estate as possible as quickly as possible.

"I ride my bike, I roller skate, don't drive no car
Don't go too fast, but I go pretty far
For somebody who don't drive
I been all around the world
Some people say, I done all right for a girl"

Melanie 1972

Dan8267 says

Bellingham Bill says

There's nothing for us on Mars other than rocks. We've got plenty of rocks here.

Until some county like China claims the planet for their own and starts a colony there. Then all of a sudden it will become a national security issue to grab up as much extra-terrestrial real estate as possible as quickly as possible.

That's funny!

Dan8267 says

Bellingham Bill says

There's nothing for us on Mars other than rocks. We've got plenty of rocks here.

Until some county like China claims the planet for their own and starts a colony there. Then all of a sudden it will become a national security issue to grab up as much extra-terrestrial real estate as possible as quickly as possible.

They'll only do it if they find oil or gold on it.

The one thing countries love more than anything else and will fight over to claim is territory. Once the acquisition of extraterrestrial territory begins, all nations will want as much of it as they can get regardless of the local resources (which is likely to be considerable considering all this territory has never been mined).