patrick.net

taxee says

News flash: Laws are all now written by corporate lawyer/lobbyists and rubber stamped by puppets in a puppet show who then morph into corporate lawyer/lobbyists who write laws.

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

kentm says

50 percent think the law gives health-care subsidies to undocumented immigrants, 80 percent don't know if their state will expand Medicaid, and 40 percent think the law sets up "death panels."

100% of the people know that their premiums have gone out of control, while coins/deductible/and copays have soared along with them. While no one in Washington that told everyone with a straight face, when they promised "healthcare would be affordable". It was the whole fucking point of Obamacare, need I remind you?

But this is how everything has gone down under Obama, the man who swore unity and transparency. But what we got, we're arguing factions and see through Yoga britches.

Homeboy says

The article does a pretty good job of explaining the major provisions. Unfortunately, most of the people here won't bother to read it.

Nancy never read it, why read it, if the whole premise is a fucking lie to begin with?

carrieon says

Obamacare has nothing to do with the President except for his name on the program. The entire program was designed by the medical insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies, the American Hospital Association and the American Medical Association to keep the cash flow coming their way.

The conservative Heritage Foundation originally came up with the plan. That should tell you who it is designed to benefit.

CaptainShuddup says

100% of the people know that their premiums have gone out of control, while coins/deductible/and copays have soared along with them. While no one in Washington that told everyone with a straight face, when they promised "healthcare would be affordable". It was the whole fucking point of Obamacare, need I remind you?

Case in point: The main provisions of the law don't take effect until 2014, yet you have declared them a failure before they even started. Logically, if Obamacare isn't in effect yet, and you are complaining about out of control premiums, your beef should be with the PREVIOUS system. You have unwittingly illustrated the public's ignorance on even the most basic elements of Obamacare.

CaptainShuddup says

Nancy never read it, why read it, if the whole premise is a fucking lie to begin with?

Exactly. You don't understand the law, and you don't WANT to understand the law. You just want to be angry. I rest my case.

finehoe says

The conservative Heritage Foundation originally came up with the plan. That should tell you who it is designed to benefit.

Funny - you claim the law is bad because it's associated with conservatives, while the Captain claims it's bad because it's associated with Nancy Pelosi. It doesn't bother anyone that half of you reject it out of hand because it's supposedly "conservative", while the other half rejects it out of hand because it's supposedly "liberal"? Wait, what am I saying? Of course it doesn't bother you, because none of you has put even the slightest amount of thought into this.

finehoe says

carrieon says

Obamacare has nothing to do with the President except for his name on the program. The entire program was designed by the medical insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies, the American Hospital Association and the American Medical Association to keep the cash flow coming their way.

If Obamacare was the insurance companies idea, why did they spend $100 million dollars trying to defeat it? You guys just aren't thinking this through.

Homeboy says

half of you reject it out of hand because it's supposedly "conservative", while the other half rejects it out of hand because it's supposedly "liberal"?

This is an example of the false 'opposition is based on ignorance' messaging that Kaiser and others promote. Other examples include 'some people say the statute goes too far, others say it doesn't go far enough, they can't make up their minds, if they only knew just how far it goes they'd join our cult and love it!' I'm not accusing Homefool of being on their payroll - he's so hooked on their pills that he's more likely to pay them.

In reality though, Obamacare is a bit like the all-consuming blob of SciFi yore: you can see in it the faces and other remains of people you remember, but they've all been transmogrified into the blob. The idea of an individual mandate to buy from private companies was proposed in a Heritage Foundation report around 1990, and it certainly isn't liberal, but even Heritage was thinking of a cheaper plan (that was their idea of conservative, i.e. cheaper). The actual blob is neither liberal nor conservative, it spends like a drunken sailor (which the conservative tribe calls "liberal") and uses government power to force people into the jaws of the corporate medical-industrial complex (which the "liberal" tribe calls "conservative"). People do have a vocabulary problem, they misuse words like conservative and liberal, but they can see that Obamacare is a lethal all-consuming blob.

Homefool in particular is so superficial that now they've changed the lipstick on this pig from Hillary's pink to Obama's black, all he can think about is a black guy signed it, any opposition is just racist, because Obama's black. He can't see that it's still the same pig that people rejected in 1993 and 2008, for the obvious reason that it still stinks. Maybe his toxic pills and GMO foods have blocked his olfactory perception, so all he can perceive now is color.

And that isn't to excuse the Republicans either. Given this pig of a plan that most people rightly dread, they had a perfect opportunity, but they nominated the one other person in the whole country who had ever signed the same thing, when it was called Romneycare. Doesn't anybody wonder why that is? Hint: the same operators are running the shows on both stages, writing the scripts and hiring the cast to read them.

Homeboy says

Case in point: The main provisions of the law don't take effect until 2014, yet you have declared them a failure before they even started. Logically, if Obamacare isn't in effect yet, and you are complaining about out of control premiums, your beef should be with the PREVIOUS system. You have unwittingly illustrated the public's ignorance on even the most basic elements of Obamacare.

Bullshit CNN did an article JUST today on this very topic.
And what I got from it, was more of what's been happening over the last several years. Expect higher premiums, there are 4 tiers, the more you pay the less you pay out of pocket. But that's not to say, you still wont be paying a shitload of money for that gold plan. How ever if you buy the bronze plan, you can expect your Coinsurance/Copay/and Deductible to not be controlled or set by Washington. Basically while Washington gets to pick the winners and looser in the insurance industry, they wont dictate the price to the winners. They will be free to set rates as they see fit. The only thing that will change, is more people will be wrangled into paying into it. And as always, any mention of subsidies are NOT clearly laid out. Just a generalization that a family of 4 making 90K will get some of it subsidized. But even a penny is some.

Homeboy says

Exactly. You don't understand the law, and you don't WANT to understand the
law. You just want to be angry. I rest my case.

Dude - I don't think you have to blame us peasants for being confused or "hating" Obamacare.

The Obama Administration has done an almost criminal job explaining or implementing the program. Major portions of the program are way behind and being postponed another year.

This says nothing of all the lies Obama told us when they were trying to sell us this flawed plan:

- "If you like your healthcare plan, you'll be able to keep your healthcare plan. Period. No one will take it away. No matter what."
-"Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase."
- "I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits - either now or in the future."
- The state health insurance exchanges will open on time.

Even Obama cheerleaders like Joe Klein at Time Mag is criticizing Obama over his "incompetence" with Obamcare implementation.

http://swampland.time.com/2013/04/02/obamacare-incompetence/

Homeboy says

you claim the law is bad because it's associated with conservatives

Where did I make a value judgement? I merely said it's origin tells you who it was designed to benefit.

CaptainShuddup says

Basically while Washington gets to pick the winners and [losers] in the insurance industry, they wont dictate the price to the winners.

Exactly. And every state capitol can give blank checks to every patronage network, all signed in advance by the federal taxpayer. If the local hospital corporation (which is likely owned by the same parent company that also owns the biggest insurance company) wants to triple its rates, fine, just buy some local politicians to approve it, and shift the cost onto the federal subsidy plan. Homefool can't even see that cost, because all he sees are subsidies, but who's going to pay all those subsidies when every state figures out it can grab unlimited money this way? And what happens to the people who have some savings, when they learn too late that their insurance company declined coverage (oh we didn't get your check that month, oh you didn't tell us you had a headcold when you were five years old so you defrauded us and we're rescinding your policy, oh my boss is offering a shiny "employee of the month" trophy if I reduce my "medical loss ratio" so we're going to deny coverage and see what happens)? The only people guaranteed to benefit are Homefool's pushers, because they can sell him more disproved pills and laugh all the way to Hawaii at the thought of him swallowing their crap.

curious2 says

winners and [losers]

No I had it right. There will be winners, then there will be those of us with looser sphincters.

socal2 says

The Obama Administration has done an almost criminal job explaining or implementing the program. Major portions of the program are way behind and being postponed another year

Specifically, which provisions of the law are being postponed for a year? And when you say "another" year, do you mean something is postponed for 2 years? Which provisions are postponed for 2 years?

socal2 says

This says nothing of all the lies Obama told us when they were trying to sell us this flawed plan:

- "If you like your healthcare plan, you'll be able to keep your healthcare plan. Period. No one will take it away. No matter what."

-"Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase."

- "I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits - either now or in the future."

- The state health insurance exchanges will open on time.

How are those "lies"? You CAN keep your healthcare plan. People making less than $250K are NOT taxed. And how is it adding to the deficit?

The one that might turn out to be false is all state exchanges opening on time. Of course that's not Obama's fault. It's the whiny babies in the red states with loaded diapers who are going to sabotage healthcare just out of spite.

finehoe says

Where did I make a value judgement? I merely said it's origin tells you who it was designed to benefit.

I feel you are being disingenuous.

The point is, you think the law was designed by conservatives, and the Captain thinks it was designed by liberals.

I'll ask this question again, since nobody has answered it:

If Obamacare was designed to benefit the insurance companies, why did they spend $100 million dollars trying to defeat it?

CaptainShuddup says

Bullshit CNN did an article JUST today on this very topic.

And what I got from it, was more of what's been happening over the last several years. Expect higher premiums, there are 4 tiers, the more you pay the less you pay out of pocket. But that's not to say, you still wont be paying a shitload of money for that gold plan.

Now you're waffling. You wrote "100% of the people know that their premiums have gone out of control". PAST tense. You said, HAVE gone out of control. That was your criticism of provisions that haven't taken effect yet.

Now you're talking about something you supposedly saw on TV talking about what WILL happen. There is no consistency to your beliefs. You just pick and choose whatever anti-Obamacare nonsense suits your fancy at that moment.

And as always, any mention of subsidies are NOT clearly laid out. Just a generalization that a family of 4 making 90K will get some of it subsidized. But even a penny is some.

Nonsense. It's very clearly laid out. You just choose to put your fingers in your ears and ignore it.

http://healthreform.kff.org/subsidycalculator.aspx

Homeboy says

You CAN keep your healthcare plan.

NO, Obamacare mandates prepayment for additional things that lobbyists wanted and people didn't want, and you will be penalized if you don't buy what the lobbyists wanted.

Homeboy says

If Obamacare was designed to benefit the insurance companies, why did they spend $100 million dollars trying to defeat it?

Read or watch "Obama's Deal" on PBS Frontline. As Dr. Howard Dean said, insurance companies "wrote the bill." Then the mandate penalty got reduced somewhat, so insurance companies decided to turn against it. But don't let that fool you, Homefool: they lost that battle but then they decided to outflank it by buying up hospital corporations and corporate practice groups.

And your link to the Kaiser empire doesn't help your credibility, while you call others disingenuous.

The conservative Heritage Foundation originally came up with the plan. That should tell you who it is designed to benefit.

Well, that oxymoron statement confirms politics has nothing to do with Obamacare. WE are all being duped by a one party system with two different names.

Now there's MORE Obamacare Goodies(i.e. any of the good stuff) that is being pushed back "at least another year". The insurance exchanges are now being pushed back, but public discussion is closed(how fucking convenient!). So that is going to give the insurance companies, another year, to raise the bar of the "definition of cheaper" even further. So that by time, any competing exchanges does come along, $20K a year, will seem like a fucking Bargain!

This is exactly how every goddamn shitty fucking piece of legislation, is done from this dreadful administration. If it's not the Finance reform, and Dodd Frank act, being gutted and provisions being delayed, while the stuff that allows big businesses even more dominance over any small businesses, and gives them even more complete monopolies, just sails right through, and implemented before the ink even dries.

Homeboy is either a paid political shill, that works in Social Media to sway public's opinion over "Mr. Social Media"(Per Obama him self) and do damage control. Though I often wonder, just how many Patneters probably are as well.

CaptainShuddup says

Though I often wonder, just how many Patneters probably are as well.

We have the same thoughts about you, with your kneejerk automatic hate for anything coming from Obama.

I have a problem with our government, but I don't put it all on Obama. Our govt is a reflection of us.

I wish we could have gone straight to whatever type of hesalth care we'll have eventually, you know a medicare for all type deal that puts us closer in cost to the rest of the developed world.

If Obamacare turns out to get most everyone insured, but the cost is too high, then that will have to be dealt with. But it won't be dealt with taking those insured people back off of insurance.

It's a very indirect way of solving the problem, but I believe that it will be solved. That is health care costs will eventually come down in the US (as a percentage of our income).

Don't even get the Captain started about preexisting conditions.

Will it be easier in 2030, to have coverage for a relapse of some serious health issue, without having to declare bankruptcy ?

MAybe "liberal" is just a code word for people that have the intellectual capacity to see both sides of an issue.

CaptainShuddup says

This is exactly how every goddamn shitty fucking piece of legislation, is done from this dreadful administration. If it's not the Finance reform, and Dodd Frank act, being gutted and provisions being delayed, while the stuff that allows big businesses even more dominance over any small businesses, and gives them even more complete monopolies, just sails right through, and implemented before the ink even dries.

Homeboy is either a paid political shill, that works in Social Media to sway public's opinion over "Mr. Social Media"(Per Obama him self) and do damage control. Though I often wonder, just how many Patneters probably are as well.

Classic Captain - I ask for specifics as to WTF you guys are talking about, and I get a vague rant and an ad hominem attack.

Perhaps YOU are a shill for Rush Limbaugh.

Very clever of those insurance companies, spending $100 million trying to defeat the law, just to throw us off track so we don't know the law was their idea.

CaptainShuddup says

Homeboy is either a paid political shill, that works in Social Media to sway public's opinion over "Mr. Social Media"(Per Obama him self) and do damage control.

Last year I thought Homefool was working for the Romnesia campaign, but that campaign's over so I'm mystified now.

marcus says

Our govt is a reflection of us.

It's divide and misrule. People are so divided against each other that 51% stand ready to lock up the other 49%, for any reason or for none. Politicians stoke those fires because it enriches their patronage networks in the prison industrial complex, the military industrial complex, and now with Obamacare especially the medical industrial complex, which is bigger than the first two combined. As long as Homefool can shift the cost of his toxic pills onto everyone else, he's hooked, because he's physically dependent on those "not habit forming" pills and needs to secure his supply. But that's just one small example, it's all about making as many people as possible dependent on their federal home loan to buy an overpriced pile of lumber, their federal Obamacare to overpay for medical, their federal student loan to overpay for a degree in basket weaving, all those people dependent on those programs become captive constituencies and reliable voting blocks that can be divided against people dependent on other programs (prison guard unions, etc.).

What is obamacare?

Obamacare is knowing that ill never have to suck a dick to get my crystal meth fix again. All I have to do is go to my doctor and tell him I have trouble "staying focused" and BAM I'm in there, 60 hits of 20mg pharmaceutical grade crystal meth per month, courtesy of you working shleps. Aah,,aah ha,,,aah hahahahahahahahaha oh how I love my adderall,,,I NEED MY MEDICINE

Obamacare is knowing that ill never have to suck a dick to get my crystal meth fix again. All I have to do is go to my doctor and tell him I have trouble "staying focused" and BAM I'm in there, 60 hits of 20mg pharmaceutical grade crystal meth per month, courtesy of you working shleps. Aah,,aah ha,,,aah hahahahahahahahaha oh how I love my adderall,,,I NEED MY MEDICINE

OMG! Well said errc. It is true that half the population will get Obamacare free, because they don't work. As for me personally, I still won't use the system, even if I have to pay for it. Because, I plan on living past 50 with my sights set on 100.

carrieon says

OMG! Well said errc. It is true that half the population will get Obamacare free, because they don't work. As for me personally, I still won't use the system, even if I have to pay for it. Because, I plan on living past 50 with my sights set on 100.

This pretty much sums up the realistic, rational opposition to Obamacare. LOL.