« First « Previous Comments 112 - 151 of 310 Next » Last » Search these comments
Companies aren't looking for better talent; they are accepting far inferior talent in order to pay employees far less.
companies know how to take care of their business and whom they need to hire to get their work done while creating maximum profit for their investors. If they are hiring inferior talent, thats what makes sense to them probably.
so presumably something has gone wrong.
Something has gone wrong all right. A few things can be done.
But you are delusional if you think limiting or preventing foreign talents will solve employment and growth problems in the country.
Clearly people who have been complaining still do not get the bigger picture. It is sad and unfortunate.
The world does not revolve around any of us.
lostand confused
2013 May 1, 7:03am
companies know how to take care of their business and whom they need to hire
to get their work done while creating maximum profit for their investors. If
they are hiring inferior talent, thats what makes sense to them probably.
Companies can do whatever benefits them and their shareholders. Countries should do whatever benefits them and the majority of their citizens. If the two differ, then the companies can choose the least painful option. That is how it has been-until this free trade BS fairy tale got accepted by the majority.
New Renter
2013 May 1, 7:22am
Glad to see you agree the STEM shortage is bullshit as well, that the TRUE purpose is driving down wages.
You have to be naive to believe that there is ever a shortage of any talent if you are willing to pay unlimited salary.
Do you really believe if you pay 1 million dollars/year for engineering jobs , you will have shortage of american born labor pool ?
The shortage is always at a given salary. The salary where profit can be realized !
The tech products have to be profitable at a given price points. You can only sell at certain price points else people won't buy them. How do you get to be profitable while selling at competitive prices ?
Are you suggesting that we put barriers so that american engineers get
huge pays at the expense of consumers/investors and growth of the tech industry ?
Why not? Its worked fantastically well for the guys in the corner offices. If you really want to trim costs start there.
Why not? Its worked fantastically well for the guys in the corner offices. If you really want to trim costs start there.
I remember a few guys Dan8267 like here were vehemently opposing affirmative action a short while ago.
But what the same guys are supporting is no different from any affirmative action. I guess people who whatever action helps *them* personally.
In reality, they are as blind as people who support affirmative action.
It heals the pain short term, and expands the misery long term.
The lack of foresight is astounding.
Dan8267
2013 May 1, 8:16am
Either you adapt to it, or complain about it for years to come.
I'm not worried for me. It's the Millennials and those who come after that are fucked. That's why I can't recommend STEM as a profession.
Dan8267
2013 May 1, 8:18am
vehemently
Vehemently? Since when did rational, dispassionate, fact-oriented, objective argument become vehemently?
Vehemently? Since when did rational, dispassionate, fact-oriented, objective argument become vehemently?
Sure, it wasn't really that "vehemently" from your side. The other guy who was opposing you was more emotional.
Dan8267
2013 May 1, 8:24am
But what the same guys are supporting is no different from any affirmative action. I guess people who whatever action helps *them* personally.
Affirmative Action does help me. I just check a minority box. If questioned, I ask "do you have a problem with that?" and I'm assured a job offer. I have no problem lying about my ethnicity to get a job. It should not be asked in the first place and it should not have any impact on whether or not I get the job.
As for my opposition to handing out H-1B Visas like candy, it's because it clearly undermines the development of talent in the U.S. As I stated, the U.S. is experiencing the largest brain drain in human history. Why the hell would someone study the most difficult subject matters when there will be no paying jobs when you graduate?
Oh, but god forbid I'd have a rational argument that politicians shouldn't listen to the lies from corporations that they can't find talented STEM workers in first world nations. Fuck all those Millennials that spent $500,000 on college degrees. They can flip burgers.
It is not selfish of me to point out that the Millennials who graduated in STEM majors aren't fucking retards with no talent or understanding of math, science, and engineering. It is not selfish of me to point out that the claim they are is a lie whose sole purpose is to eliminate bargaining power of labor in the exact same way that "right to work" legislation's sole purpose is to eliminate bargaining power of labor.
Dan8267
2013 May 1, 8:25am
Sure, it wasn't really that "vehemently" from your side. The other guy who was opposing you was more emotional.
Next time I'll be sure to use emoticons so that you can follow the tone.
finehoe
2013 May 1, 8:26am
Are you suggesting that we put barriers so that american engineers get
huge pays at the expense of consumers/investors and growth of the tech industry ?
No, I'm suggesting American employers stop lying that American workers don't have the skills they need and be upfront about the reason they want to hire third-worlders: So they can pay third-world level wages.
But you are delusional if you think limiting or preventing foreign talents will solve employment and growth problems in the country.
And you are delusional if you think winning the race to the bottom will benefit anyone other than a few in the 1%.
Dan8267
2013 May 1, 8:28am
If they are hiring inferior talent, thats what makes sense to them probably.
Yes, much in the same way that the Tragedy of the Common makes perfect sense for each individual peasant. That's what makes it a tragedy.
Government, even ones too stupid to prevent such a tragedy, should not contribute to it.
Ever wonder why it seems that the entire country's infrastructure has been sold off? It made perfect sense to the person making the profit at the time. Not so good in the long run.
Pollution also makes perfect financial sense for the polluter. It doesn't make macro-economic sense, though.
No, I'm suggesting American employers stop lying that American workers don't have the skills they need and be upfront about the reason they want to hire third-worlders: So they can pay third-world level wages. Many many tech companies have real R&D code writing offices set up overseas.
If they want to pay 3rd world salary, set up a regional R&D locally and pay locally. which if you havent heard has already taken place.
why ?
well in tech, its pricing pressure... prices for a desktop/laptop dropped from $5000 down to $500 todays model. And frankly todays models are 10x more functional. HP and Dell.. countless others who dropped out... IBM, Compaq, Gateway, etc etc.
so how to your control your costs when revenues per unit has fallen by 90%. And how does the component makers react to lower costs... Intel, AMD, Seagate, Western Digital, etc etc.
And how has that effected others in Tech, IBM, Sun Micro, Oracle, SGI, and countless others that are gone ... Death Pool is really really deep...
Imagine the car industry or any other industry being that way ?
Of course they havent been lying.. they been saying this for years.. but the media and stupid
journalist have been lying about jobs sent over seas... as if they were all dead end jobs like
call center jobs.
Rin
2013 May 1, 8:56am
Good for you. The nation's economy is heavily dependent on finance and financial engineering currently. This has started since 1970. That has caused a brain drain of a lot of smart people away from science and technology in this country, and to a less extent in other places. That needs to be fixed.
Yes, it's good for me because in 5-7 years, I'll never have to work for a living ever again and then, I can attend medical school and see patients (called union card, by doctors who're into R&D) while doing research pro bono. Are you noticing a pattern here? ... as a STEM person, I'm not motivated by money but by the caliber of the work.
And for society, is it worth it for STEM graduates to be corralling money for the elite prop traders? In other words, the field is finance is mainly about a large support staff, directing capital towards the big traders (ala this generations' Jesse Livermore & other big time gamblers).
Majority will go where the money is. You don't hear hue and cry about foreigners taking over the finance jobs
That's because we don't grant H1-Bs for money managers and salespersons. That's a majority of what the money changers do, not technology work. The workers in finance, who're in the H1-B umbrella, are IT workers, who assist the quants and others in developing trading systems and managing the database infrastructures. Those who usually have a green card, try to transition out of IT and into research analyst, quant, or sales positions.
Likewise, our secretary, who's studying for a masters in a science, is taking the Patent exam, which requires that she has a U.S. citizenship before sitting for the exam. She's under no competition against visa folks there.
My job is to manage the tax server and make our clients feel good. Well, a vast majority of my day is being on the phone with them. That's not what I had in mind, when I'd first started studying applied chemistry but it certainly pays the bills, and a whole lot more.
That's because we don't grant H1-Bs for money managers and salespersons.
I don't know specifically about money managers. But I do know this. A large number foreign nationals work in wall street. And I am not talking about people in IT there. A lot of quants start there with H1-B visas.
And you are delusional if you think winning the race to the bottom will benefit anyone other than a few in the 1%.
Do you know who that 1% is? People in your neighborhood. And you always thought it was someone else.
No, I'm suggesting American employers stop lying that American workers don't have the skills they need and be upfront about the reason they want to hire third-worlders: So they can pay third-world level wages.
You should travel around the world a bit more. You would be surprised how much that "third world" has progressed.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/s%E2%80%99pore-is-now-richest-in-the-world.html
Rin
2013 May 1, 11:00am
A large number foreign nationals work in wall street. And I am not talking about people in IT there. A lot of quants start there with H1-B visas.
Yes, there are other technical titles, other than business-y risk analyst, salesperson, etc. And the quant, who's not a prop trader himself, can be in a H1-B technical track: mathematics, computer science, etc. As a distribution, however, more will be IT than "quant". A lot of so-called quants don't actually make money & thus, the area is a bit fluid. For an H1-B, it's easier to survive till the green card, in more of a technical support role.
Rin,
How did you transition into that's line of work?
It had started with a consulting risk trigger system for USD & Yen contracts. This was a part-time contract that I'd dedicated nights and weekends on, in order to gain some entry into the trading arena. When my friend and I presented the results of that to the two partners, they decided to leave their old companies, bring some clients along, and startup a new firm, with a sales approach of high alpha, risk containment. And then, they also got a couple of prop traders involved, who were adept at mixing a bit of tech and intuition. Well, being among the starting ten, and the fact that we were successful, the financial rewards have been excellent in this field. A lot of it is sales, keeping clients happy, and projecting this stalwart New England frugality.
New Renter
2013 May 1, 11:20am
No, I'm suggesting American employers stop lying that American workers don't have the skills they need and be upfront about the reason they want to hire third-worlders: So they can pay third-world level wages.
You should travel around the world a bit more. You would be surprised how much that "third world" has progressed.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/s%E2%80%99pore-is-now-richest-in-the-world.html
Irrelevant to the OT but sure, I'll play:
India:
Brazil:
Mexico:
Hong Kong:
Somalia:
And of course -North Korea!
Thanks, I'll stay home.
As for my opposition to handing out H-1B Visas like candy, it's because it clearly undermines the development of talent in the U.S. As I stated, the U.S. is experiencing the largest brain drain in human history. Why the hell would someone study the most difficult subject matters when there will be no paying jobs when you graduate?
You complain that employers discriminate against local employees, and they should not do so. Thus, in your opinion, it would hurt the society in the long run.
In the exact same way, someone can claim that employers discriminate against blacks based on their race. And they should not do since it would hurt them in the long run.
The logic is identical. In both cases, a person assumes that he/she knows better about the greater cost to the society than the employer, and he/she wants the government to impose the restriction on the employer.
You are hypocritical if you agree with the former and disagree with the latter.
Rin
2013 May 1, 11:27am
How did Singapore get into this discussion? Singapore hasn't been 3rd world since the 50s. It's been a 2nd world nation since leaving the British and has been "1st world", in terms of lifestyle/infrastructure, since the 80s.
How did Singapore get into this discussion?
Because there are lots of job opportunities over there in spite of highest per capita incomes. There is no official quota limit on how many foreign nationals may be hired. The place is thriving.
The same argument holds if you ignore Singapore, or Hong Kong for that matter. Overall, Asia has been improving. Many engineers from China and India have started going back, saying there is a better quality of life for them over there.
It is a complete ignorance to think that engineers in Bangalore or Beijing struggle with their daily lives. They have a comparable standard of living now, if not better. A good guy makes salary only 20-30% lower than a similar person over here.
That does not mean poverty has vanished from people in the third world. But engineers enjoy a very good life.
You have to understand this. Blocking some foreigners from working here won't help the local job market. It may hurt in the long run. Jobs will follow where the talent is (at the right price) in the world.
Irrelevant to the OT but sure, I'll play:
Then you should not complain, if you think those starving people are getting paid some money to survive. You are better off anyway.
How did Singapore get into this discussion? Singapore hasn't been 3rd world since the 50s
They changed along with 3 others... Asian tiger nations...
How did Singapore Taiwan and So Korea become leaders in Tech both in R&D
and manufacturing ?
Have a read if you dare... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Asian_Tigers
No problems with manufacturing or technology in the US:
http://www.pacbiztimes.com/2013/05/01/former-energy-secretary-calls-for-manufacturing-renaissance/
Plenty of American kids going into science?
http://www.ndcl.ee.psu.edu/students.asp
But no worries - we can sue our way to prosperity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_100_largest_law_firms_by_revenue
Question for Patricians:
How is having by far the wealthiest Law firms in the world related to the lack of generational US kids going into manufacturing, science, technology, math?
How is technology accommodated in the US vs. Asia:
http://www.semiconductors.org/public_policy/tax/
What role did NAFTA have in this?
AD
2013 May 1, 1:49pm
Plenty of American kids going into science?
What are you complaining about Entitlement? The American students make up at least 25% of the Electrical Engineering students !
Rin
2013 May 1, 1:57pm
The American students make up at least 25% of the Electrical Engineering students !
Hate to say it but this whole Americans, as EEs, was a Math Jock type of p*ssing contest, back in school. I was amazed that so many of these so-called Math Jocks didn't realize that eventually, nurses & PAs would be eating their lunch in the real world of earning a living and one, past the age of 40.
In reality, EEs were only marketable because of either the graces of the defense sector [ Military branch, Raytheon, United Tech, etc ] or the fact that EMC, IBM, Qualcomm, Intel, etc need QA engineers to grace their headcount.
Here's reality for American engineers ... Natl Sec careers, Patent Agent, or Medical School, these are your options in life.
No problems with manufacturing or technology in the US:
http://www.pacbiztimes.com/2013/05/01/former-energy-secretary-calls-for-manufacturing-renaissance/
that depends what you call "manufacturing"... frankly i would be careful when talking to Dems. But as both Obama and Clinton stated... that world we knew called manufacturing is long gone. They of course are wrong in many ways.
Are we talking about complex manufacturing of semiconductors and less complex like textiles, I am all for it. But this administration does NOT have the religion behind it... they dont believe in it.
Its a question of "show me" how quickly in number of months you expect plants to be making a variety of products.. Anything past 18 months is really too late.
Question for Patricians:
How is having by far the wealthiest Law firms in the world related to the lack of generational US kids going into manufacturing, science, technology, math?
How is technology accommodated in the US vs. Asia:
http://www.semiconductors.org/public_policy/tax/
What role did NAFTA have in this?
No not NAFTA... Your mom always said.. Be a doctor or lawyer... never did she say Engineer especially Software Coder..
Rin
2013 May 1, 10:06pm
Your mom always said.. Be a doctor or lawyer... never did she say Engineer especially Software Coder..
Everyone's mom, aunt, & cousin said to be a doctor, since even boring Pathologists earn over $200K with lifelong career security.
In fact, I'd say it's worth it, to attend MD school at any age, early 30s to 60s because if you're an 'exam' taker, it's the only profession with a near guaranteed income stream.
You can be an engineer and after the age of 42, find yourself under/(un)employed, if your prior area is no longer *hot*. Thus, a prior hot shot, billing at $150/hr may find himself, billing at $25-30/hr [ & discontinuously at 3 to 6 months/yr ] after the age of 45. As a doctor, you'll never experience lifelong underemployment. True, you may never finish paying off those loans [ esp if you decide to become a pediatrician in San Fran or Boston ] but hey, beggars can't be choosy.
Here's the ticket ... work as a doctor in a boring midwest city like Des Moines or Omaha. That'll cut your rent/condo payments to $600/month. Your salary will still be $200K+. Then, you can eliminate those pesky loans within 2 years post-residency. And then afterwards, you can move back to one of your favorite locales.
Rin
2013 May 2, 2:52am
Here's the salary.com entry for Pathologists:
http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Physician-Pathology-Salary-Details.aspx
Note, this is one of the lower stress areas of medicine which involves minimal patient contact, aside from perhaps dead ones.
I'd much rather be a Pathologist, from the age of 48 to 68, vs being an engineer during those years, with chronic unemployment and shrinking salaries.
MisdemeanorRebel
2013 May 2, 3:45am
I'd much rather be a Pathologist, from the age of 48 to 68, vs being an engineer during those years, with chronic unemployment and shrinking salaries.
Also, dead bodies aren't as crazy as pointy-haired bosses...
From the Mercury News:
The U.S. Senate's compromise measure would require employers seeking foreign programmers, engineers and other skilled workers to post jobs on a government website and give preference to American job applicants who are "equally or better qualified." That and other proposed regulations could make it more difficult and expensive for firms to sponsor workers through H-1B visas....one Silicon Valley entrepreneur welcomes the new restrictions. Too many companies use the three-year H-1B visa to bring in cheaper labor, undermining the U.S. tech workforce, the CEO of Newark-based Systems in Motion warned Congress last week.
"The visas are primarily being used for lower costs," Neeraj Gupta said in his Senate testimony.
Here's the ticket ... work as a doctor in a boring midwest city like Des Moines or Omaha. That'll cut your rent/condo payments to $600/month. Your salary will still be $200K+. Then, you can eliminate those pesky loans within 2 years post-residency. And then afterwards, you can move back to one of your favorite locales.
Pretty much.. might even retire earlier than your peers in other professions.
Rin
2013 May 2, 5:42am
Here's the ticket ... work as a doctor in a boring midwest city like Des Moines or Omaha. That'll cut your rent/condo payments to $600/month. Your salary will still be $200K+. Then, you can eliminate those pesky loans within 2 years post-residency. And then afterwards, you can move back to one of your favorite locales.
Pretty much.. might even retire earlier than your peers in other professions.
And even better than fully retiring ... keep one's board certification & work one day per week, earn $50K, and then, not even touch the eggs nest except for emergencies. Doctors are in demand and there are moonlighting stints available. For $50K, I'll work as a garbage man, one day per week. That's six days left to work on my golf game.
finehoe
2013 May 2, 5:47am
Do you know who that 1% is? People in your neighborhood.
Wrong once again. "...the New York metropolitan area has the largest number of very high-income households. Nearly 12 percent of top-income households live in the New York region, compared to about 7 percent of all households. Second-place Los Angeles is home to about 5 percent of the very rich, compared to about 4 percent of all households."
I guess it isn't surprising that you don't understand the difference between counties with high median incomes (that are due to a very high share of the population having college degrees, you know the very people you believe should be replaced with H-1B visa holders) and the super-rich.
then want to get a good return on their investment by paying lower wages to immigrants
The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa, Einstein.
« First « Previous Comments 112 - 151 of 310 Next » Last » Search these comments
If there's one thing that everyone can agree on in Washington, it's that the country has a woeful shortage of workers trained in science, technology, engineering and math — what's referred to as STEM.
President Obama has said that improving STEM education is one of his top priorities. Chief executives regularly come through Washington complaining that they can't find qualified American workers for openings at their firms that require a science background. And armed with this argument in the debate over immigration policy, lobbyists are pushing hard for more temporary work visas, known as H-1Bs, which they say are needed to make up for the lack of Americans with STEM skills.
But not everyone agrees. A study released Wednesday by the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute reinforces what a number of researchers have come to believe: that the STEM worker shortage is a myth.
The EPI study found that the United States has “more than a sufficient supply of workers available to work in STEM occupations.” Basic dynamics of supply and demand would dictate that if there were a domestic labor shortage, wages should have risen. Instead, researchers found, they've been flat, with many Americans holding STEM degrees unable to enter the field and a sharply higher share of foreign workers taking jobs in the information technology industry. (IT jobs make up 59 percent of the STEM workforce, according to the study.)
The answer to whether there is a shortage of such workers has important ramifications for the immigration bill. If it exists, then there's an urgency that justifies allowing companies to bring more foreign workers into the country, usually on a short-term H-1B visa. But those who oppose such a policy argue that companies want more of these visas mainly because H-1B workers are paid an estimated 20 percent less than their American counterparts. Why allow these companies to hire more foreign workers for less, the critics argue, when there are plenty of Americans who are ready to work?
The EPI study said that while the overall number of U.S. students who earn STEM degrees is small — a fact that many lawmakers and the news media have seized on — it's more important to focus on what happens to these students after they graduate. According to the study, they have a surprisingly hard time finding work. Only half of the students graduating from college with a STEM degree are hired into a STEM job, the study said.
“Even in engineering,” the authors said, “U.S. colleges have historically produced about 50 percent more graduates than are hired into engineering jobs each year.”
The picture is not that bright for computer science students, either. “For computer science graduates employed one year after graduation . . . about half of those who took a job outside of IT say they did so because the career prospects were better elsewhere, and roughly a third because they couldn't find a job in IT,” the study said.
While liberal arts graduates might be used to having to look for jobs with only tenuous connections to their majors, the researchers said this shouldn't be the case for graduates with degrees attached to specific skills such as engineering.
The tech industry has said that it needs more H-1B visas in order to hire the “best and the brightest,” regardless of their citizenship. Yet the IT industry seems to have a surprisingly low bar for education. The study found that among IT workers, 36 percent do not have a four-year college degree. Among the 64 percent who do have diplomas, only 38 percent have a computer science or math degree.
The bipartisan immigration plan introduced last week by the so-called Gang of Eight senators would raise the number of H-1B visas, though it would limit the ability of outsourcing firms to have access to them. Tech companies such as Facebook and Microsoft have fought hard to distinguish themselves from these outsourcing companies, arguing that unlike firms such as Wipro, they're looking for the best people, not just ones who will work for less.
But some worry that the more H-1Bs allowed into the system, the more domestic workers get crowded out, resulting in what no one appears to want: fewer American students seeing much promise in entering STEM fields.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/study-there-may-not-be-a-shortage-of-american-stem-graduates-after-all/2013/04/24/66099962-acea-11e2-a8b9-2a63d75b5459_story.html
#politics