patrick.net

EBGuy says

That and other proposed regulations could make it more difficult and expensive for firms to sponsor workers through H-1B visas....one Silicon Valley entrepreneur welcomes the new restrictions. Too many companies use the three-year H-1B visa to bring in cheaper labor, undermining the U.S. tech workforce, the CEO of Newark-based Systems in Motion warned Congress last week.

Hopefully then, that cruise ship will finally sail outside of SD ...

http://www.sea-code.com

Rin said: that cruise ship will finally sail outside of SD...
No H-1B, no problem. Talk about indentured servitude... at least a H-1B holder has the possibility of finding another sponsor (or legal representation) on land. On the boat... well, you can swim for it if you don't like the working conditions.

gsr says

more companies will set up offices...on cruise ships.

If they are really smart, they will use working cruise ships, and have the "help" not only do IT outsourcing, but also cook and clean the staterooms. Two birds with one stone!

finehoe says

Wrong once again. "

You can deny all you want. Does not change facts:
http://www.Cvm3NSN0YoY

finehoe says

I guess it isn't surprising that you don't understand the difference between counties with high median incomes (that are due to a very high share of the population having college degrees, you know the very people you believe should be replaced with H-1B visa holders) and the super-rich.

Biggest employers in DC are defense industries, who make money from the government for spying on American people, and building more drones to kill people all over the world. No, H1-Bs don't get the chance to go anywhere near there. And cost cutting is the least of their concerns.

finehoe says

gsr says

more companies will set up offices...on cruise ships.

If they are really smart, they will use working cruise ships, and have the "help" not only do IT outsourcing, but also cook and clean the staterooms. Two birds with one stone!

Carnival Tech Cruises ... bring your work to us, we'll be right by your yard ... now docking on Catalina Islands CA, Nantucket MA, Outer Banks NC, Key West FL for the ultimate in offshoring experiences. Coast Guard need not apply :-)

gsr says

Biggest employers in DC are defense industries, who make money from the government for spying on American people

As I'd mentioned, the best and most secure work for S&Es is at the Natl Sec Agency, between DC and Baltimore.

Contractors are if-fy, as projects tend to move around a lot, between R&D/delivery cost centers, sometimes VA or MA, then CO, then TX. Better to work with the Feds directly, like a Pentagon liaison.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/magazine/washingtons-economic-boom-financed-by-you.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

And you keep telling gullible people that "'forners" are responsible for all of the economic miseries. This is a good game. But it won't last forever.

Rin says

Carnival Tech Cruises ... bring your work to us, we'll be right by your yard ... now docking on Catalina Islands CA, Nantucket MA, Outer Banks NC, Key West FL for the ultimate in offshoring experiences. Coast Guard need not apply :-)

You did not hear about this?
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Blueseed-to-entrepreneurs-Your-ship-may-come-in-3570961.php

It is started by Peter Thiel, German immigrant and founder of Paypal.

gsr says

You did not hear about this?

http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Blueseed-to-entrepreneurs-Your-ship-may-come-in-3570961.php

It is started by Peter Thiel

I knew about sea-code, didn't know that Thiel (or the other avant-garde startup-er Musk) fellows were at it.

Rin says

finehoe says

gsr says

more companies will set up offices...on cruise ships.

If they are really smart, they will use working cruise ships, and have the "help" not only do IT outsourcing, but also cook and clean the staterooms. Two birds with one stone!

Carnival Tech Cruises ... bring your work to us, we'll be right by your yard ... now docking on Catalina Islands CA, Nantucket MA, Outer Banks NC, Key West FL for the ultimate in offshoring experiences. Coast Guard need not apply :-)

Your signing bonus? Norovirus!

gsr says

You can deny all you want. Does not change facts

Idiot. That video doesn't disprove what I said at all. Typical of your ilk, you see no difference between a place that has a strong middle class with a median income of $100,000 and one that has the same median income, but is due to a few rich people and lots of people just scraping by. The former is what progressive leftists want, the latter is what the neofascist right is doing everything in their power to achieve.

if what a good software engineer gets in bay area is called scraping by then something is wrong with your definition. anyhow, whats the whole fuss about ? Are software engineering salaries too low ?

I thought good software engineers get paid well.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm

Do you guys need to be paid 500k per year ?

finehoe says

Idiot. That video doesn't disprove what I said at all. Typical of your ilk, you see no difference between a place that has a strong middle class with a median income of $100,000 and one that has the same median income, but is due to a few rich people and lots of people just scraping by. The former is what progressive leftists want, the latter is what the neofascist right is doing everything in their power to achieve.

San jose- sunnyvale - santa clara which house most of the H1B's has better income distribution than rest of the USA.

Rin says

Here's reality for American engineers ... Natl Sec careers, Patent Agent, or Medical School, these are your options in life.

You got that right Rin. Don't tell the poor fools that are applying for college to study engineering.

jaldi1 says

finehoe says

Idiot. That video doesn't disprove what I said at all. Typical of your ilk, you see no difference between a place that has a strong middle class with a median income of $100,000 and one that has the same median income, but is due to a few rich people and lots of people just scraping by. The former is what progressive leftists want, the latter is what the neofascist right is doing everything in their power to achieve.

San jose- sunnyvale - santa clara which house most of the H1B's has better income distribution than rest of the USA.

So the H1B engineers make the same as Wal-Mart greeters? As Starbucks baristas?

jaldi1 says

anyhow, whats the whole fuss about ? Are software engineering salaries too low ?

I thought good software engineers get paid well.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm

Do you guys need to be paid 500k per year ?

In my current field, if a prop trader earns less than $200K, he's considered a *failure* among his peers. Sorry, not my perspective, I'm just passing the message along.

The fact that a number of engineers earn from $65K to $120K, means that the field is still viable for those, who've survive all the rounds of layoffs. My guess it that many of them are from the ages of 27 to 39. And then, the numbers drop off dramatically, once they hit ~45.

finehoe says

Idiot. That video doesn't disprove what I said at all. Typical of your ilk, you see no difference between a place that has a strong middle class with a median income of $100,000 and one that has the same median income, but is due to a few rich people and lots of people just scraping by. The former is what progressive leftists want, the latter is what the neofascist right is doing everything in their power to achieve,

Doesnt work... never could ! At least in Texas they do get it. Many who come to CA from the Liberal East coast with a fantasy of getting rich are lost.

ON THE RECORD / CARL GUARDINO

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/business/ontherecord/article/ON-THE-RECORD-CARL-GUARDINO-2574540.php#ixzz2SCB7qX00

Q: So are those really challenges?

A: Unequivocally, yes. Not only to the CEOs in the boardroom, but to any family you talk to in their living room. What we hear time after time from CEOs as well as frontline employees is how incredibly difficult it is to come here and stay here. That truly does have an impact on a company's bottom line when the cost differential is so much higher here than it is in other regions around the state, nation and globe, or the ability to recruit top talent is also impacted.

You mentioned housing. It probably is the top concern we hear about in Silicon Valley from both CEOs and employees in terms of local issues. Does that have an impact? Let me put a finer point on it.

Hewlett-Packard and Dell are the top two computer-makers in the world. Corporate headquarters for HP are located in Palo Alto and Dell is in Round Rock, Texas. Obviously, they both have people and facilities around the globe.

In those two communities where their corporate headquarters are and where a lot of research and development takes place, the median resale price for a home in Palo Alto is about $1.6 million. In Round Rock, Texas, it's about $180,000, except the home and property are bigger.

We hear from HP all the time that a huge deterrent to the ability to recruit and retain people anywhere near Silicon Valley is the housing issue. We don't hear that from Dell, which is also a member company, about their operations in Round Rock. It does continue to plague us and we will continue to sound the alarm.

Wrong1986, your words are orthogonal to the topic at hand.

STEM shortage - real or no?

finehoe says

That video doesn't disprove what I said at all

Will this one do?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/magazine/washingtons-economic-boom-financed-by-you.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&

New Renter says

So the H1B engineers make the same as Wal-Mart greeters? As Starbucks baristas?

No what it means is that, san jose has the highest median income in the entire US and on top of it the income disparity is very low.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/24/americas-richest-cities_n_1910260.html
this shows that most people make good incomes here. ( esp engineers).
Most people on this thread are complaining that engineering salaries ( upwards of 100K+ ) are not high enough.
Tell that to the factory worker who is doing two shifts and barely making 30K. The fact is that engineers in bay area are paid well.

You can always find other jobs ( hedge funds,doctors,..etc) to compare and whine about ..that type of thinking is just a mindset issue and nobody can fix it.

jaldi1 says

New Renter says

So the H1B engineers make the same as Wal-Mart greeters? As Starbucks baristas?

No what it means is that, san jose has the highest median income in the entire US and on top of it the income disparity is very low.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/24/americas-richest-cities_n_1910260.html

this shows that most people make good incomes here. ( esp engineers).

well the News media assume too much without doing any investigation. the reality is in SV sales people make alot of money.. they make a commission on the sales they generate. many sales people actually live outside of SV near their customer hubs.

second, we have shed many local jobs since late 80s.. removing manufacturing and then later Engineering and GA leaving only some 5-10% locally. Much of that are executive positions and support staff. So on average, even if salaries didnt increase, it only seems that MANY people are making more in salaries by removing the bottom 75-80% of headcount.

But year before all this 60-70-80s... majority of the people who worked here did alright without too much competition. Japan entering the Tech sector changed all that..

I hear constant complain on this forum that "chindians" are driving up the real estate price in SFBA. Aren't they mostly 1st generation immigrants, and typically started as H1Bs?
So which one is true? Are they working under slave wages, or are they buying up all the real estates? Two things together can't be true. Choose one and stick with it. I would say it is the second one.

jaldi1 says

You can always find other jobs ( hedge funds,doctors,..etc) to compare and whine about ..that type of thinking is just a mindset issue and nobody can fix it.

I was originally a STEM worker, who's now a money manager at a hedge fund. I have some perspective & thus, assert my right to complain about my former so-called profession. My response to all STEMers who're here is that the GRASS is in fact GREENER, on my side of the fence. Unlike others in the HF world, I own a house in western Massachusetts, not a posh Boston/NYC suburb and thus, I have zero worries about money. My mortgage has been paid off for two years, I have a huge stash of savings, *Cadillac* health & life insurances, and my daily lifestyle is that of a person who earns some $75K/yr. If/when this gig ends (I don't expect to survive for more than 6-7 years in this arena), is to attend medical school with my savings, and then, have lifelong employment, regardless of how my investments perform.

Now, like STEM, a lot of HF persons are kinda young, however, unlike STEM, rampant age discrimination doesn't exist. If you're known to be good at trading, sales, or what have you, finding work in one's 40s isn't out of the question. However, newcomers are not welcome past a certain age. That threshold varies between generations.

On the other hand, as a physician, one can work anywhere from one's 40s till one's 70s. In contrast, many STEM workers will either be in documentation, management, or out of work by one's 50s.

gsr says

Will this one do?

Are you really that thick? Yes, the DC area has a high median income. BECAUSE IT HAS A STRONG MIDDLE-CLASS, NOT BECAUSE THE SUPER-RICH LIVE THERE. I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse (a common internet troll tactic) or if you are genuinely that stupid (also pretty common in cyberspace). This article addresses the issue much better than the one you posted: http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2011/10/where-one-percent-live/393/

gsr says

I hear constant complain on this forum that "chindians" are driving up the real estate price in SFBA. Aren't they mostly 1st generation immigrants, and typically started as H1Bs?

So which one is true? Are they working under slave wages, or are they buying up all the real estates? Two things together can't be true. Choose one and stick with it. I would say it is the second one.

Seriously? You troll this forum and STILL equate income to housing affordability? Well my friend let me help shed some light on your paradox. Here are some stories which came to light during the last bubble:

Casey Serin--the self-dubbed 'World's Most Hated Blogger'--purchased eight homes between October, 2005 and May, 2006 with the intent of fixing them up and then reselling. Serin, who was unemployed, lied on all of his mortgage applications to get these loans and even receive cash back at closing. At one point, this 24-year-old would-be real estate mogul was in debt over $2.2 million.

Not surprisingly, Serin lost all of his homes in 2007 to foreclosure. News coverage of this was significant. The earliest media stories suggested that Serin may have been a victim of greedy mortgage lenders, but the reporters eventually picked up on the fact that he lied on his mortgage applications and coverage turned negative.

Story 2
How does a California strawberry picker earning less than $15,000 a year qualify for a home loan of $720,000? That was the question everyone wanted answered last year. Borrower Alberto Ramirez, an immigrant who could not speak English, placed the blame on his real estate agent.

But of course, it wasn't the loan that was the problem--this house was simply unaffordable given the borrower's income. Within a few months, the real estate agent quit subsidizing the Ramirez's payments and the borrower quit paying on the advice of an attorney.

http://homeguide123.com/articles/Top_5_Most_Ridiculous_Mortgage_Borrower_Stories_of_2007.html

This all came out as the last bubble was popping. Who knows what we'll be hearing about as this one pops.

Then there are the all cash buyers - that category of buyer CAME OVER with their money, they did not earn it here as H1Bs.

gsr says

Are they working under slave wages, or are they buying up all the real estates? Two things together can't be true.

Sure they can. In 2012 there were 85,000 new H1B visas issued which can be extended to 6 years allowing for a half million low-wage indentured servants in the US. In 2012 there were also 1,020,000 Chinese with a net worth of at least $1.6 million and 63,500 worth at least $16 million a small fraction of which looking for SF bay real estate would impact the market. I assume little overlap between the groups - people usually don't get to $1.6M of net worth on an engineer's salary in the US until approaching retirement, especially starting in a developing country with 1/5 the salary they'd get here and a below market wage after arriving.

ok let me get this straight.
1) bay area has highest median income in US.
2) Bay area has better income distribution than the average US ( gini index) - which means strong middle class.
3) Most engineer families here ( dual engineer income) earn 250+ K. very common scenerio in bay area
4) good software engineers here who have 6+ years real industry experience earn 120+ K . starting salaries are generally 80+ K
5) A nice independent home within a 30 to 40 minutes driving distance can be rented for $2700. A two bedroom nice condo for $2300.

forget about the h1bs. even with all the H1bs , this is what a local american citizen who is in software field will get.
If this is not enough incentive for a american citizen to study and enter the software field then it just means that they are just expecting too much.

reference for
1) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/24/americas-richest-cities_n_1910260.html
2) http://patrick.net/?p=1224183&c=958205#comment-958205
4) http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm

drew_eckhardt says

In 2012 there were also 1,020,000 Chinese with a net worth of at least $1.6 million and 63,500 worth at least $16 million a small fraction of which looking for SF bay real estate would impact the market.

That's a whole lot of nothing. Where did this come from and what is "net" worth? If "net" worth includes real estate already then they aren't looking to buy anyway. Even if 20% (doubtful) lived in CA then that would be 200k. If 20% of those were in SF (very very doubtful) then that would be 40k. If 25% were looking for houses (even more doubtful, they have to live someplace now) that would be 10k. So 10k potential buyers in an area of 8 million people would impact the market? I don't think so.

I know it's very hard to believe but SF isn't the center of the universe.

jaldi1 says

ok let me get this straight.

You keep trying to twist this thread into some kind of anti-immigrant hate fest. Its not. The question is, has been and continues to be whether there is a dire shortage of STEM employees to warrant increasing the number of H1B visas granted to foreign STEM workers. The evidence has been overwhelmingly NO, there is no shortage and never has been.

If you have hard evidence to the contrary we'd like to see it.

jaldi1 says

If this is not enough incentive for a american citizen to study and enter the software field then it just means that they are just expecting too much.

good point.

another thing no one has brought up is the fact that in an "American only" company, your chances of being a victim of random shooting carried out by a disgruntled "American" employee is so much higher.

i'd rather smell Kung Pao and Indian curry in the lunch room everyday than live in fear of being shot by an "American" co-worker. they are like ticking time bombs waiting to go off at anytime with no warnings whatsoever!!

as far as i'm concerned if that day ever comes, there will be plenty of yelling in the hallways "WTF dude!? At Least Get the Chinaman First!!!"

New Renter says

The question is, has been and continues to be whether there is a dire shortage of STEM employees to warrant increasing the number of H1B visas granted to foreign STEM workers. The evidence has been overwhelmingly NO, there is no shortage and never has been.

I believe STEM firms can train an existing postdoc for a currently open position.

Basically, give 'em the parameters of the tasks at hand. Let 'em learn the essential skills/tools during the final 3-4 mos of a postdoc, and then, give 'em 3-4 mos to either sink or swim at the company. Chances are, many will rise to the challenge and those open positions will be filled.

Instead, those postdoc resumes go to the wastebasket w/o even a 2nd glance. Sorry, I'm not buying the shortage story.

jaldi1 says

If this is not enough incentive for a american citizen to study and enter the software field then it just means that they are just expecting too much.

All they are expecting is that they will be hired based on the skills they've taken the time and money to acquire. Instead they are handed a BS line that their skills aren't what the employer "needs" so a foreigner must be hired instead.

finehoe says

All they are expecting is that they will be hired based on the skills they've taken the time and money to acquire. Instead they are handed a BS line that their skills aren't what the employer "needs" so a foreigner must be hired instead.

Why would they do that ?
If i am a business owner , why would i not hire a person with the right skills for the salary i am willing to pay to a h1b ?
If the employer is willing to pay 120K for a 6 years experienced H1B software engineer...why would he not hire you if you are willing to work for that pay ? unless of course you say 120K is too low for you

Rin says

I believe STEM firms can train an existing postdoc for a currently open position.

Why would they do that ? if the guys don't even put the effort to learn the skills a company needs. why would a company do that for them.
there are so many ways post docs can learn software skills. they don't have to do a 4 years B.S degree for that.

finehoe says

All they are expecting is that they will be hired based on the skills they've taken the time and money to acquire.

You are showing your ignorance again. Perhaps you have never worked in Hi-Tech?

A large number of foreigners who work in H1-Bs have advanced degree in universities over here.

When we hire, we look for good school and experience, not the national origin.

It might be possible in other fields, but not in high tech R&D. A technical interview is a tough process. I have never seen a single case that we specifically target to hire H1-Bs.

In fact, hiring H1-Bs is a lot more complicated since we have the cost of immigration lawyers, the cost green-card sponsorship etc.
If everything else is equal, we would prefer a permanent resident (green-card) or a citizen. And that's how it is.

The complain I heard is about IT consulting companies getting H1-Bs in the form of cheap labor. Even it is true, there is nothing wrong with it.
In fact, in ten years, most of these jobs will be automated. We will have even less human involvement.

jaldi1 says

If the employer is willing to pay 120K for a 6 years experienced H1B software engineer...

I don't know where you're getting the 120k figure from. The average salary for H1B sponsorship jobs is half that: $64,000.

jaldi1 says

Rin says

I believe STEM firms can train an existing postdoc for a currently open position.

Why would they do that ? if the guys don't even put the effort to learn the skills a company needs. why would a company do that for them.

there are so many ways post docs can learn software skills. they don't have to do a 4 years B.S degree for that.

Please read the content of my post.

The company, in this case, doesn't provide PAID FOR training. The person learns on his own, during his postdoc, and then, works as an intern at that company. But NO company does this. They don't want postdocs because they see their experiences as a mismatch. Which once again, says that we don't have a shortage of STEMs.

gsr says

The complain I heard is about IT consulting companies getting H1-Bs in the form
of cheap labor. Even it is true, there is nothing wrong with it.

If you don't understand why it is wrong, there's nothing more I can say.

Mark D says

another thing no one has brought up is the fact that in an "American only" company, your chances of being a victim of random shooting carried out by a disgruntled "American" employee is so much higher.

Not really.

For all practical purposes except politics mass shootings don't exist and your odds of being killed in a shooting rampage with multiple victims are basically zero.

In 2012 18 out of about 315,000,000 people committed one, which is 1 in 17.5 million or 0.0000057%.

They killed 88 out of 315,000,000 people, which is 1 in 3.6 million 0.000028%.

To compare this with another rare event 1600 Americans become lottery millionaires each year which is 1 in 150,000 adults or .00067% although only 50-60% of adults play the lottery so the odds are at least .00111%.

IOW, if you play the lottery you're 40X more likely to become a millionaire from it than you are to be killed in a mass shooting.

My big concern is suburban assault vehicles which kill 4500 pedestrians and pedal cyclists a year which is like 173 Sandy Hooks a year or one every two days. People even let 16 year old children operate them without adult supervision! Most people have been brainwashed by the powerful automotive lobby and think nothing of this horrible menace, using the lobby's sugar coated labels like "car," "truck", and "cross over."

New Renter says

Casey Serin--the self-dubbed 'World's Most Hated Blogger

You did not get the fundamental point.
Housing affordability and low mortgage rates affect everyone equally. So if everything else is constant, we would see homeowner-ship rate proportional to earned income and assets.

I don't think an average H1-B would stretch more in terms of getting loan than an average local person. In fact, a foreigner would typically be fiscally more conservative.