patrick.net

gsr, it takes a lot of foresight for a society to have a well educated generation of scientists and engineers. Kids don't want to study all the time for nickels and dimes.

This idea that "Yes, you should study science" followed by "a technical job is not an entitlement", is a slap in the face when many of us could have dropped out of HS and repaired cars for a living. And in my case, I clearly had everything in place for admissions to an MD program which I'd decided not to do because I was temporarily fooled into believing that our society needed S&Es. Today, I work for a hedge fund; that mistake has been corrected.

And a lot of ppl join the army so that they can do what the private sector has failed them and that's on-the-job training along with an actual job in the military. I knew a great aircraft machinist, who had a great career in the army but afterwards, was stuck doing odd jobs, here and there, in the private sector after being honorably discharged. He was hard working, not some welfare queen.

Rin,

A technical job or even car repair job is not an entitlement anywhere in the world in private sector through government legislation. I challenge you to find a place where it is.

In many places, a technical education is subsidized. But it never comes with a job guarantee.

So far as the cost is concerned, again there is a gigantic student loan bubble.

gsr says

New Renter says

Unlimited cheap labor.

Nothing is unlimited. The labor costs have been going up. Another group has hired a few engineers in Bangalore. Their median salary is equivalent to 55K USD. Some folks have been earning close to 100K USD.

It is still cheaper to pay someone 55K in Bangalore than paying than same to somewhere here. Go to salary.com and find how much it costs to pay someone just the 55K salary.

Of course this just confirms that the "STEM shortage" is a lie to get cheaper labor.

gsr says

Rin,

A technical job or even car repair job is not an entitlement anywhere in the world in private sector through government legislation. I challenge you to find a place where it is.

In many places, a technical education is subsidized. But it never comes with a job guarantee.

So far as the cost is concerned, again there is a gigantic student loan bubble.

Slap!
How dare you punks think those years of hard work and sacrifice should be rewarded with job prospects. Fuck You, I got mine Jack!

Slap!

OK, got it.

New Renter says

gsr says

Rin,

A technical job or even car repair job is not an entitlement anywhere in the world in private sector through government legislation. I challenge you to find a place where it is.

In many places, a technical education is subsidized. But it never comes with a job guarantee.

So far as the cost is concerned, again there is a gigantic student loan bubble.

Slap!

How dare you punks think those years of hard work and sacrifice should be rewarded with job prospects. Fuck You, I got mine Jack!

A car repair job requires 6 mos of training. And believe it or not, cars need fixing and that fixing can't be offshored.

S&E careers, however, require a lot more. But instead of going through that, if those who'd normally make the grades in the hard courses decide to become accountants, nurses, or join the army, where would we be as a society? Probably not too far from third world status.

You see, that's where this whole 'entitlement' attitude, coming from MBA types, is leading towards. If someone calls me 'entitled', well then guess what? ... I'll leave the sciences and find work elsewhere. And I did exactly that, managing other ppl's money. Am I really contributing to society by doing that? And then, when thousands of others follow suit then we'll have a nation really short staffed in the sciences.

Rin says

... I'll leave the sciences and find work elsewhere. And I did exactly that, managing other ppl's money. Am I really contributing to society by doing that? And then, when thousands of others follow suit then we'll have a nation really short staffed in the sciences.

Good for you. The nation's economy is heavily dependent on finance and financial engineering currently. This has started since 1970. That has caused a brain drain of a lot of smart people away from science and technology in this country, and to a less extent in other places. That needs to be fixed.

Majority will go where the money is. You don't hear hue and cry about foreigners taking over the finance jobs. Limiting or eliminating cheaper foreign labor won't fix a single thing. It will simply make it worse, as more companies will set up offices in foreign countries and on cruise ships. The world has become a lot more bigger than any single nation.

Who gives you the right to take away the freedom of a group of individuals ( owners of a corp) to hire whom ever they want to in order to get the best bang for their buck ?

So much so for the land of free people.

If a group of people worked their ass off , "paid their taxes back to the society", saved some money, started/invested in a company and then want to get a good return on their investment by paying lower wages to immigrants, ....they can do whatever heck they want to do with their money.....its their money and their company.
Who the hell are you to force them to hire you and part with their savings with you?

Do you want the 70 years old retiree who is getting a 10% return on his retirement investment from a tech company to now get only 2% so that you can enjoy a fat paycheck ?

As long as the corps are not hiring criminals and welfare recipients but hiring tax paying law abiding immigrants..i don't see any issue.

gsr says

I am contesting the fact why there is a limit in the first place. Tell me a good reason to have a limit in any country in the world for that matter.

Also known as "open borders". Your kids will thank you.

jaldi1 says

i don't see any issue.

The global median income is around $3 to $4 a day. Look again.

jaldi1 says

If a group of people worked their ass off , "paid their taxes back to the society", saved some money, started/invested in a company and then want to get a good return on their investment by paying lower wages to immigrants, ....they can do whatever heck they want to do with their money.....its their money and their company.

Who the hell are you to force them to hire you and part with their savings with you?

Conversely, why should I pay sales taxes when I buy something on the Internet made out of state, probably out of country?

Why should it be illegal for me to buy pharmaceuticals from Canada where they are cheaper?

Why shouldn't I be able to mail order a DVD from China and play it on my DVD player?

Why shouldn't I be able to purchase a Tommy Hilfiger shirt directly from the Chinese company that makes the actual shirt? It would cost less than a tenth of what it does in my local mall and that's including shipping.

There are lots of laws protecting the profits of corporations by limiting what individual citizens can do. Perhaps we should get rid of some of those regulations.

jaldi1 says

Who gives you the right to take away the freedom of a group of individuals ( owners of a corp) to hire whom ever they want to in order to get the best bang for their buck ?

So much so for the land of free people.

If a group of people worked their ass off , "paid their taxes back to the society", saved some money, started/invested in a company and then want to get a good return on their investment by paying lower wages to immigrants, ....they can do whatever heck they want to do with their money.....its their money and their company.

Who the hell are you to force them to hire you and part with their savings with you?

Do you want the 70 years old retiree who is getting a 10% return on his retirement investment from a tech company to now get only 2% so that you can enjoy a fat paycheck ?

As long as the corps are not hiring criminals and welfare recipients but hiring tax paying law abiding immigrants..i don't see any issue.

Glad to see you agree the STEM shortage is bullshit as well, that the TRUE purpose is driving down wages.

Again the entire point of this thread is that the shortage of STEM employees in this country is a myth. This myth is then used to justify an increase in H1B visas. If this action is so pure to American values why do they have to lie about it? Why not just come out and say American STEM workers are too expensive and don't want to be treated like crap. We need to bring in cheaper foreign labor who as a bonus has less recourse to being treated like crap.

Any freedom loving American will stand up and salute - you certainly have!

Rin says

A car repair job requires 6 mos of training. And believe it or not, cars need fixing and that fixing can't be offshored.

I was a concrete laborer in the 80s and made ~30-40K at the same time I was finishing college, which was at Purdue with 80s State tuition costs. Even then I thought, why pay so much to be a mathematician, get paid the same amount and not accrue 150K of debt?

I'd be up 150K on wages and down 150k on tuition for a loss of 300K.

These retarded libertarian laissez-faire notions would have made certain I'd have stopped my education, and I'd be a even more stupider guy then I turneded out to be.

finehoe says

Also known as "open borders". Your kids will thank you.

You still don't understand. This is not 1950 any more.
Of course, you have the choice to remain a country hick, and assume that closing borders will alleviate all problems related to unemployment. And you kids will be safe from those "aliens".

But the reality is that if a person is talented, he/she will be hired irrespective of his/her national origin. If one country closes borders, the other country will open it. There is no reason for an employee to come to the US just to find work. He/she has more choices, including his/her home country.

Open your eyes. Read more news. The world is becoming multi-polar. A talented person can be found anywhere in the world.
It is not just about cost-cutting at all. If that's the case, Zimbabwe would have been the economic powerhouse.

The entire Asia and Eastern Europe are catching up fast. There will be less and less immigration from there, as more lucrative jobs are already available over there. Salaries have been skyrocketing during the last ten years. Blocking people from coming over here will only accelerate that trend.

gsr says

A talented person can be found anywhere in the world.

Ah, but that has nothing to do with the reason for outsourcing. Outsourcing is done to take a greater share of the employee's wealth production, that is all. Companies aren't looking for better talent; they are accepting far inferior talent in order to pay employees far less.

gsr says

You still don't understand. This is not 1950 any more.

I'm quite aware of which century it is, thank you.

You can go off into further flights of fancy about perfect competition bidding away the surplus/profit/benefits of exchange of the employer too, but then suddenly no-one gains anything from the employment contract, so presumably something has gone wrong.

There are five powerful, objective measures of a STEM Glut:
1. ~35% of STEM Grads not employed in any STEM field. Studies vary, but most are around 35%, that is, the independent studies that aren't sponsored by Industry PR firms or underwritten think tanks.
2. Length of time between jobs; shortage means they would probably have a job before quitting or get one real quick after a layoff.
3. Almost total lack of interest in training employees, both old and new.
3b. Unpaid or low paying internships by STEM-oriented companies.
3c. Limited internships offered, more applicants than spaces. In a true shortage, companies would be backstabbing each other, offering secret keg stand parties, etc. to attract and impress potential future employees.
4. Disparity between STEM graduation numbers and number of net new jobs created in STEM fields.
5. Stagnant Wages on average for the STEM Field generally. Yes, there may be a shortage in one or two narrow categories, but generally, wages are flat.

gsr says

The entire Asia and Eastern Europe are catching up fast. There will be less and less immigration from there, as more lucrative jobs are already available over there. Salaries have been skyrocketing during the last ten years. Blocking people from coming over here will only accelerate that trend.

I assume you mean salaries "over there" have been skyrocketing. If you think STEM salaries here have been skyrocketing you're even more delusional that I thought.

If you did indeed mean salaries "over there" have been skyrocketing AND if those are STEM salaries GREAT! That means at least SOMEONE values STEM workers.

Your logic however is flawed. Removing STEM workers from "over there" and bringing them here will only decrease the size of the labor pool and accelerate the increase of compensation "over there". Reducing US immigration will maintain the size of the "over there" labor pool.

thunderlips11 says

There are five powerful, objective measures of a STEM Glut:
1. ~35% of STEM Grads not employed in any STEM field. Studies vary, but most are around 35%, that is, the independent studies that aren't sponsored by Industry PR firms or underwritten think tanks.
2. Length of time between jobs; shortage means they would probably have a job before quitting or get one real quick after a layoff.
3. Almost total lack of interest in training employees, both old and new.
3b. Unpaid or low paying internships by STEM-oriented companies.
3c. Limited internships offered, more applicants than spaces. In a true shortage, companies would be backstabbing each other, offering secret keg stand parties, etc. to attract and impress potential future employees.
4. Disparity between STEM graduation numbers and number of net new jobs created in STEM fields.
5. Stagnant Wages on average for the STEM Field generally. Yes, there may be a shortage in one or two narrow categories, but generally, wages are flat.

Agreed 100% on all of this.

I don't believe anyone here has been arguing the shortage is real, rather why its the moral obligation of the powers that be to lie about it in order to fuck over American STEM workers

New Renter says

Glad to see you agree the STEM shortage is bullshit as well, that the TRUE purpose is driving down wages.

You have to be naive to believe that there is ever a shortage of any talent if you are willing to pay unlimited salary.
Do you really believe if you pay 1 million dollars/year for engineering jobs , you will have shortage of american born labor pool ?

The shortage is always at a given salary. The salary where profit can be realized !
The tech products have to be profitable at a given price points. You can only sell at certain price points else people won't buy them. How do you get to be profitable while selling at competitive prices ?
Are you suggesting that we put barriers so that american engineers get
huge pays at the expense of consumers/investors and growth of the tech industry ?

thunderlips11 says

4. Disparity between STEM graduation numbers and number of net new jobs created in STEM fields.

This is going to apply to all fields. There aren't enough jobs out there for the current labor market. As more and more Millennials poor into the labor market with advanced degrees, this is only going to get far, far worse.

Most of the retiring Boomers have long moved into management, but why do you need management when everything is outsourced. Anything below the executive level will be downsized.

Dan8267 says

Companies aren't looking for better talent; they are accepting far inferior talent in order to pay employees far less.

This has been already discussed at length. The bottom line is this.
You can believe that, if that makes you happy. The reality is that the trend will continue. Either you adapt to it, or complain about it for years to come.

New Renter says

I assume you mean salaries "over there" have been skyrocketing.

Correct. Salaries have been going up in Asia. A lot of people have migrated there for work as well.

Dan8267 says

Companies aren't looking for better talent; they are accepting far inferior talent in order to pay employees far less.

companies know how to take care of their business and whom they need to hire to get their work done while creating maximum profit for their investors. If they are hiring inferior talent, thats what makes sense to them probably.

finehoe says

so presumably something has gone wrong.

Something has gone wrong all right. A few things can be done.

But you are delusional if you think limiting or preventing foreign talents will solve employment and growth problems in the country.

Clearly people who have been complaining still do not get the bigger picture. It is sad and unfortunate.

The world does not revolve around any of us.

jaldi1 says

companies know how to take care of their business and whom they need to hire
to get their work done while creating maximum profit for their investors. If
they are hiring inferior talent, thats what makes sense to them probably.

Companies can do whatever benefits them and their shareholders. Countries should do whatever benefits them and the majority of their citizens. If the two differ, then the companies can choose the least painful option. That is how it has been-until this free trade BS fairy tale got accepted by the majority.

gsr says

The world does not revolve around any of us.

Oh now that's just silly.

jaldi1 says

New Renter says

Glad to see you agree the STEM shortage is bullshit as well, that the TRUE purpose is driving down wages.

You have to be naive to believe that there is ever a shortage of any talent if you are willing to pay unlimited salary.

Do you really believe if you pay 1 million dollars/year for engineering jobs , you will have shortage of american born labor pool ?

The shortage is always at a given salary. The salary where profit can be realized !

The tech products have to be profitable at a given price points. You can only sell at certain price points else people won't buy them. How do you get to be profitable while selling at competitive prices ?

Are you suggesting that we put barriers so that american engineers get

huge pays at the expense of consumers/investors and growth of the tech industry ?

Why not? Its worked fantastically well for the guys in the corner offices. If you really want to trim costs start there.

New Renter says

Why not? Its worked fantastically well for the guys in the corner offices. If you really want to trim costs start there.

I remember a few guys Dan8267 like here were vehemently opposing affirmative action a short while ago.

But what the same guys are supporting is no different from any affirmative action. I guess people who whatever action helps *them* personally.

In reality, they are as blind as people who support affirmative action.
It heals the pain short term, and expands the misery long term.
The lack of foresight is astounding.

gsr says

Either you adapt to it, or complain about it for years to come.

I'm not worried for me. It's the Millennials and those who come after that are fucked. That's why I can't recommend STEM as a profession.

gsr says

vehemently

Vehemently? Since when did rational, dispassionate, fact-oriented, objective argument become vehemently?

Dan8267 says

Vehemently? Since when did rational, dispassionate, fact-oriented, objective argument become vehemently?

Sure, it wasn't really that "vehemently" from your side. The other guy who was opposing you was more emotional.

gsr says

But what the same guys are supporting is no different from any affirmative action. I guess people who whatever action helps *them* personally.

Affirmative Action does help me. I just check a minority box. If questioned, I ask "do you have a problem with that?" and I'm assured a job offer. I have no problem lying about my ethnicity to get a job. It should not be asked in the first place and it should not have any impact on whether or not I get the job.

As for my opposition to handing out H-1B Visas like candy, it's because it clearly undermines the development of talent in the U.S. As I stated, the U.S. is experiencing the largest brain drain in human history. Why the hell would someone study the most difficult subject matters when there will be no paying jobs when you graduate?

Oh, but god forbid I'd have a rational argument that politicians shouldn't listen to the lies from corporations that they can't find talented STEM workers in first world nations. Fuck all those Millennials that spent $500,000 on college degrees. They can flip burgers.

It is not selfish of me to point out that the Millennials who graduated in STEM majors aren't fucking retards with no talent or understanding of math, science, and engineering. It is not selfish of me to point out that the claim they are is a lie whose sole purpose is to eliminate bargaining power of labor in the exact same way that "right to work" legislation's sole purpose is to eliminate bargaining power of labor.

gsr says

Sure, it wasn't really that "vehemently" from your side. The other guy who was opposing you was more emotional.

Next time I'll be sure to use emoticons so that you can follow the tone.

jaldi1 says

Are you suggesting that we put barriers so that american engineers get

huge pays at the expense of consumers/investors and growth of the tech industry ?

No, I'm suggesting American employers stop lying that American workers don't have the skills they need and be upfront about the reason they want to hire third-worlders: So they can pay third-world level wages.

gsr says

But you are delusional if you think limiting or preventing foreign talents will solve employment and growth problems in the country.

And you are delusional if you think winning the race to the bottom will benefit anyone other than a few in the 1%.

jaldi1 says

If they are hiring inferior talent, thats what makes sense to them probably.

Yes, much in the same way that the Tragedy of the Common makes perfect sense for each individual peasant. That's what makes it a tragedy.

Government, even ones too stupid to prevent such a tragedy, should not contribute to it.

Ever wonder why it seems that the entire country's infrastructure has been sold off? It made perfect sense to the person making the profit at the time. Not so good in the long run.

Pollution also makes perfect financial sense for the polluter. It doesn't make macro-economic sense, though.

finehoe says

No, I'm suggesting American employers stop lying that American workers don't have the skills they need and be upfront about the reason they want to hire third-worlders: So they can pay third-world level wages. Many many tech companies have real R&D code writing offices set up overseas.

If they want to pay 3rd world salary, set up a regional R&D locally and pay locally. which if you havent heard has already taken place.

why ?

well in tech, its pricing pressure... prices for a desktop/laptop dropped from $5000 down to $500 todays model. And frankly todays models are 10x more functional. HP and Dell.. countless others who dropped out... IBM, Compaq, Gateway, etc etc.

so how to your control your costs when revenues per unit has fallen by 90%. And how does the component makers react to lower costs... Intel, AMD, Seagate, Western Digital, etc etc.

And how has that effected others in Tech, IBM, Sun Micro, Oracle, SGI, and countless others that are gone ... Death Pool is really really deep...

Imagine the car industry or any other industry being that way ?

Of course they havent been lying.. they been saying this for years.. but the media and stupid
journalist have been lying about jobs sent over seas... as if they were all dead end jobs like
call center jobs.

gsr says

Good for you. The nation's economy is heavily dependent on finance and financial engineering currently. This has started since 1970. That has caused a brain drain of a lot of smart people away from science and technology in this country, and to a less extent in other places. That needs to be fixed.

Yes, it's good for me because in 5-7 years, I'll never have to work for a living ever again and then, I can attend medical school and see patients (called union card, by doctors who're into R&D) while doing research pro bono. Are you noticing a pattern here? ... as a STEM person, I'm not motivated by money but by the caliber of the work.

And for society, is it worth it for STEM graduates to be corralling money for the elite prop traders? In other words, the field is finance is mainly about a large support staff, directing capital towards the big traders (ala this generations' Jesse Livermore & other big time gamblers).

gsr says

Majority will go where the money is. You don't hear hue and cry about foreigners taking over the finance jobs

That's because we don't grant H1-Bs for money managers and salespersons. That's a majority of what the money changers do, not technology work. The workers in finance, who're in the H1-B umbrella, are IT workers, who assist the quants and others in developing trading systems and managing the database infrastructures. Those who usually have a green card, try to transition out of IT and into research analyst, quant, or sales positions.

Likewise, our secretary, who's studying for a masters in a science, is taking the Patent exam, which requires that she has a U.S. citizenship before sitting for the exam. She's under no competition against visa folks there.

My job is to manage the tax server and make our clients feel good. Well, a vast majority of my day is being on the phone with them. That's not what I had in mind, when I'd first started studying applied chemistry but it certainly pays the bills, and a whole lot more.

Rin,

How did you transition into that's line of work?

Rin says

That's because we don't grant H1-Bs for money managers and salespersons.

I don't know specifically about money managers. But I do know this. A large number foreign nationals work in wall street. And I am not talking about people in IT there. A lot of quants start there with H1-B visas.

finehoe says

And you are delusional if you think winning the race to the bottom will benefit anyone other than a few in the 1%.

Do you know who that 1% is? People in your neighborhood. And you always thought it was someone else.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/09/21/dc_metro_area_is_super_rich_7_of_the_10_ten_counties_are_in_the_dc_suburbs_.html