patrick.net

jaldi1 says

ok let me get this straight.

You keep trying to twist this thread into some kind of anti-immigrant hate fest. Its not. The question is, has been and continues to be whether there is a dire shortage of STEM employees to warrant increasing the number of H1B visas granted to foreign STEM workers. The evidence has been overwhelmingly NO, there is no shortage and never has been.

If you have hard evidence to the contrary we'd like to see it.

jaldi1 says

If this is not enough incentive for a american citizen to study and enter the software field then it just means that they are just expecting too much.

good point.

another thing no one has brought up is the fact that in an "American only" company, your chances of being a victim of random shooting carried out by a disgruntled "American" employee is so much higher.

i'd rather smell Kung Pao and Indian curry in the lunch room everyday than live in fear of being shot by an "American" co-worker. they are like ticking time bombs waiting to go off at anytime with no warnings whatsoever!!

as far as i'm concerned if that day ever comes, there will be plenty of yelling in the hallways "WTF dude!? At Least Get the Chinaman First!!!"

New Renter says

The question is, has been and continues to be whether there is a dire shortage of STEM employees to warrant increasing the number of H1B visas granted to foreign STEM workers. The evidence has been overwhelmingly NO, there is no shortage and never has been.

I believe STEM firms can train an existing postdoc for a currently open position.

Basically, give 'em the parameters of the tasks at hand. Let 'em learn the essential skills/tools during the final 3-4 mos of a postdoc, and then, give 'em 3-4 mos to either sink or swim at the company. Chances are, many will rise to the challenge and those open positions will be filled.

Instead, those postdoc resumes go to the wastebasket w/o even a 2nd glance. Sorry, I'm not buying the shortage story.

jaldi1 says

If this is not enough incentive for a american citizen to study and enter the software field then it just means that they are just expecting too much.

All they are expecting is that they will be hired based on the skills they've taken the time and money to acquire. Instead they are handed a BS line that their skills aren't what the employer "needs" so a foreigner must be hired instead.

finehoe says

All they are expecting is that they will be hired based on the skills they've taken the time and money to acquire. Instead they are handed a BS line that their skills aren't what the employer "needs" so a foreigner must be hired instead.

Why would they do that ?
If i am a business owner , why would i not hire a person with the right skills for the salary i am willing to pay to a h1b ?
If the employer is willing to pay 120K for a 6 years experienced H1B software engineer...why would he not hire you if you are willing to work for that pay ? unless of course you say 120K is too low for you

Rin says

I believe STEM firms can train an existing postdoc for a currently open position.

Why would they do that ? if the guys don't even put the effort to learn the skills a company needs. why would a company do that for them.
there are so many ways post docs can learn software skills. they don't have to do a 4 years B.S degree for that.

finehoe says

All they are expecting is that they will be hired based on the skills they've taken the time and money to acquire.

You are showing your ignorance again. Perhaps you have never worked in Hi-Tech?

A large number of foreigners who work in H1-Bs have advanced degree in universities over here.

When we hire, we look for good school and experience, not the national origin.

It might be possible in other fields, but not in high tech R&D. A technical interview is a tough process. I have never seen a single case that we specifically target to hire H1-Bs.

In fact, hiring H1-Bs is a lot more complicated since we have the cost of immigration lawyers, the cost green-card sponsorship etc.
If everything else is equal, we would prefer a permanent resident (green-card) or a citizen. And that's how it is.

The complain I heard is about IT consulting companies getting H1-Bs in the form of cheap labor. Even it is true, there is nothing wrong with it.
In fact, in ten years, most of these jobs will be automated. We will have even less human involvement.

jaldi1 says

If the employer is willing to pay 120K for a 6 years experienced H1B software engineer...

I don't know where you're getting the 120k figure from. The average salary for H1B sponsorship jobs is half that: $64,000.

jaldi1 says

Rin says

I believe STEM firms can train an existing postdoc for a currently open position.

Why would they do that ? if the guys don't even put the effort to learn the skills a company needs. why would a company do that for them.

there are so many ways post docs can learn software skills. they don't have to do a 4 years B.S degree for that.

Please read the content of my post.

The company, in this case, doesn't provide PAID FOR training. The person learns on his own, during his postdoc, and then, works as an intern at that company. But NO company does this. They don't want postdocs because they see their experiences as a mismatch. Which once again, says that we don't have a shortage of STEMs.

gsr says

The complain I heard is about IT consulting companies getting H1-Bs in the form
of cheap labor. Even it is true, there is nothing wrong with it.

If you don't understand why it is wrong, there's nothing more I can say.

Mark D says

another thing no one has brought up is the fact that in an "American only" company, your chances of being a victim of random shooting carried out by a disgruntled "American" employee is so much higher.

Not really.

For all practical purposes except politics mass shootings don't exist and your odds of being killed in a shooting rampage with multiple victims are basically zero.

In 2012 18 out of about 315,000,000 people committed one, which is 1 in 17.5 million or 0.0000057%.

They killed 88 out of 315,000,000 people, which is 1 in 3.6 million 0.000028%.

To compare this with another rare event 1600 Americans become lottery millionaires each year which is 1 in 150,000 adults or .00067% although only 50-60% of adults play the lottery so the odds are at least .00111%.

IOW, if you play the lottery you're 40X more likely to become a millionaire from it than you are to be killed in a mass shooting.

My big concern is suburban assault vehicles which kill 4500 pedestrians and pedal cyclists a year which is like 173 Sandy Hooks a year or one every two days. People even let 16 year old children operate them without adult supervision! Most people have been brainwashed by the powerful automotive lobby and think nothing of this horrible menace, using the lobby's sugar coated labels like "car," "truck", and "cross over."

New Renter says

Casey Serin--the self-dubbed 'World's Most Hated Blogger

You did not get the fundamental point.
Housing affordability and low mortgage rates affect everyone equally. So if everything else is constant, we would see homeowner-ship rate proportional to earned income and assets.

I don't think an average H1-B would stretch more in terms of getting loan than an average local person. In fact, a foreigner would typically be fiscally more conservative.

finehoe says

The complain I heard is about IT consulting companies getting H1-Bs in the form

of cheap labor. Even it is true, there is nothing wrong with it.

If you don't understand why it is wrong, there's nothing more I can say.

120K / year is NOT cheap labour !!!!

finehoe says

I don't know where you're getting the 120k figure from. The average salary for H1B sponsorship jobs is half that: $64,000.

do you have any proof ?

also who gives a fuck!
As a skilled software engineer with 6 years experience you get 120K in bay area.
I don't care about the wage pressure due to H1b's

finehoe says

gsr says

The complain I heard is about IT consulting companies getting H1-Bs in the form

of cheap labor. Even it is true, there is nothing wrong with it.

If you don't understand why it is wrong, there's nothing more I can say.

In conclusion, if you're an American, leave the STEM fields for medicine, trading, patents, or TV/entertainment. Your peers, like a gsr or a jaldi1, will sell you up the river, so that they can advance into management. This thread and the responses to it, sort of hint at those intentions, conscious or not.

BTW, as a hedge fund manager, I'll say this... we do not hire postdocs for any reason. Basically, if you show up at the door with a PhD, you need to bring in some clients. In other words, you're out of the academy and a well seasoned financial professional.

Next, we see IT persons as *tools*. Yes, those types of monikers are thrown around at techies. The people we respect are salesmen, elite prop traders (who're the closest thing to a rock star), some tax consultants, and a professional secretary who makes the entire enterprise look good to visiting clients.

By working in finance, I've realize how little S&Es mean to our society outside of Sci-Fi movies.

gsr says

New Renter says

Casey Serin--the self-dubbed 'World's Most Hated Blogger

You did not get the fundamental point.

Housing affordability and low mortgage rates affect everyone equally. So if everything else is constant, we would see homeowner-ship rate proportional to earned income and assets.

I don't think an average H1-B would stretch more in terms of getting loan than an average local person. In fact, a foreigner would typically be fiscally more conservative.

So perhaps H1B are renters rather than buyers and the "chindians" you are referring to are simply rich absentee buyers. Whatever, it has nothing to do with the OT which you continue to evade.

jaldi1 says

finehoe says

I don't know where you're getting the 120k figure from. The average salary for H1B sponsorship jobs is half that: $64,000.

do you have any proof ?

also who gives a fuck!

As a skilled software engineer with 6 years experience you get 120K in bay area.

I don't care about the wage pressure due to H1b's

Clearly!

finehoe says

If you don't understand why it is wrong, there's nothing more I can say.

Seriously, do you really think protectionism protects jobs?
If so, then you probably don't know people can get jobs outside this country as well.

What do you think will happen if you block foreigners from working here? Will it reduce or increase outsourcing?

Let me give you another example. Go to an island with no humans around.
Create all sorts of jobs and position, and assign them all to yourselves. Don't allow any other human to immigrate to that island.
See, you will have 100% employment. Will that solve all the problems?

See protectionism has been benefiting Hawaiians so greatly.
http://www.UhQ4d8g3tHc

New Renter says

So perhaps H1B are renters rather than buyers and the "chindians" you are referring to are simply rich absentee buyers.

That's completely untrue. In SFBA, places like Cupertino, Sunnyvale, Fremont have a large number of Asian population. Most of them are 1st generation immigrants, and work in Tech companies. Do you even live in San Jose, CA ?

Rin says

In conclusion, if you're an American, leave the STEM fields for medicine, trading, patents, or TV/entertainment.

Here is someone who disagrees with you.
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/one-skill-every-american-needs-learn-153037730.html

gsr says

New Renter says

So perhaps H1B are renters rather than buyers and the "chindians" you are referring to are simply rich absentee buyers.

That's completely untrue. In SFBA, places like Cupertino, Sunnyvale, Fremont have a large number of Asian population. Most of them are 1st generation immigrants, and work in Tech companies. Do you even live in San Jose, CA ?

I do indeed. You don't.

You also don't read.

gsr says

Rin says

In conclusion, if you're an American, leave the STEM fields for medicine, trading, patents, or TV/entertainment.

Here is someone who disagrees with you.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/one-skill-every-american-needs-learn-153037730.html

And here is someone who disagrees with your author:
What a load of bovine excrement this article is. Sure, bust your butt, major in CS, not exactly the easiest field of study, get a job where you're required to work 50+ hours/week but only paid for 40, have to be on call 24/7, have to keep your skills current mostly on your time and money, then once you get a few gray hairs you're forced to train your Indian replacement then fired. Good luck finding another job at that point.

gsr says

The complain I heard is about IT consulting companies getting H1-Bs in the form of cheap labor. Even it is true, there is nothing wrong with it.

Nothing wrong with it? IT'S AGAINST THE LAW! The H1-B is to supply skills that employers allegedly can't find in the US; it most certainly is not designed to undercut American workers' wages.

That you freely admit you see nothing wrong with corporations intentionally breaking the law in order to squeeze out a few more pennies of profit shows you are no better than the scum who operate firetrap Bangladeshi factories or exploding Texan fertilizer plants.

Your contempt for the law is disgusting.

New Renter says

What a load of bovine excrement this article is. Sure, bust your butt, major in CS, not exactly the easiest field of study, get a job where you're required to work 50+ hours/week but only paid for 40, have to be on call 24/7, have to keep your skills current mostly on your time and money, then once you get a few gray hairs you're forced to train your Indian replacement then fired. Good luck finding another job at that point.

So, the end result is the American worker, discouraged by this prospect, will resign him/herself to some lowly service job. And that benefits us how?

The other side says, "it's inevitable!", "get with the program!". But the program is low wages and a loss of American competitiveness. A race to the bottom.

New Renter says

gsr says

Rin says

In conclusion, if you're an American, leave the STEM fields for medicine, trading, patents, or TV/entertainment.

Here is someone who disagrees with you.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/one-skill-every-american-needs-learn-153037730.html

And here is someone who disagrees with your author:

What a load of bovine excrement this article is. Sure, bust your butt, major in CS, not exactly the easiest field of study, get a job where you're required to work 50+ hours/week but only paid for 40

Well, there's nothing wrong with taking courses in data structures/algorithms, computer & network architectures, discrete math, etc, to get a general knowledge base. Our secretary, who's got a humanities BS, took a lot of those type of undergrad courses [ as electives ] and now, she's doing a science masters, part-time, to later sit for the Patent Agent exam. So, she's doing quite well in life, without needing to necessarily go all hardcore STEM to do it.

In the article, that guy's teaching at Stuyvesant, the top entrance exam magnet HS in NYC. If anything, for a HSer, attending Stuy is a huge mistake. Everyone there competes to be near the top ~10%, so that they can win a full scholarship to NYU undergrad. Sure, some Stuy guys do great [ typically, the best test takers ] but others, who gravitate towards the middle of the pack, end up at a City College type of school, with limited FA package [ since class rank matters for free money ] , where they're rather bitter and don't find themselves any higher on the totem pole than others. So much for the value of *elite* early bird STEM type of training.

Abbey Cohen of Goldman once made a superfluous statement that she's more impressed with a Stuy HS diploma than someone with a Harvard undergrad. Now, the question is whether or not she would hire a Stuy grad, if he didn't also attend Harvard (or some other Ivy) later?

And yes, my firm doesn't hire Stuy grads w/o a college degree afterwards.

In fact, we place nearly zero value on where one attended high school, including Philips Exeter or Eton.

In every field where outsourcing/offshoring/H1B is possible, it will be done. It is not that upper management wants to necessarily pay the least amount of money in general, it's that they want to pay the least amount of money possible for a minimum acceptable quality threshold. They have their ratios.

dublin hillz says

In every field where outsourcing/offshoring/H1B is possible, it will be done.

And once the labor has all been outsourced to the third world, management can be too. In fact, it will be necessary. Those managers better be close to retirement.

Dan8267 says

And once the labor has all been outsourced to the third world, management can be too. In fact, it will be necessary. Those managers better be close to retirement

And closer to the people and resources they manage. It's the same logic applied for the factories. Why build a Caterpillar dirt mover and ship it to China when they Chinese can build it and use it locally? And while we're at it, we might as well hire the Chinese workers to build them.

Perfect. Let's all go to college, if you can afford it.

CL says

And closer to the people and resources they manage. It's the same logic applied for the factories. Why build a Caterpillar dirt mover and ship it to China when they Chinese can build it and use it locally? And while we're at it, we might as well hire the Chinese workers to build them.

Perfect. Let's all go to college, if you can afford it.

Seems like some forgot about Jeep and China not to long ago...

While you will certainly see lots of US made Jeeps in Europe, that was not the
case for china which slaps a tax on all imports. But will not tax if Jeeps were made
in USA.

Ring a bell ?

CL says

Why build a Caterpillar dirt mover and ship it to China when they Chinese can build it and use it locally? And while we're at it, we might as well hire the Chinese workers to build them.

what was IBM is now Levenno ..

thomaswong.1986 says

CL says

And closer to the people and resources they manage. It's the same logic applied for the factories. Why build a Caterpillar dirt mover and ship it to China when they Chinese can build it and use it locally? And while we're at it, we might as well hire the Chinese workers to build them.

Perfect. Let's all go to college, if you can afford it.

Seems like some forgot about Jeep and China not to long ago...

While you will certainly see lots of US made Jeeps in Europe, that was not the

case for china which slaps a tax on all imports. But will not tax if Jeeps were made

in USA.

Ring a bell ?

How does it not bode poorly for the US though? All jobs are vulnerable, which I think was Dan's point.

finehoe says

ntentionally breaking the law in order to squeeze out a few more pennies of profit

Ok, you are ignorant outside of your world. Here is a news flash.
Look at this link:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cities-where-americans-earn-the-most-165055703.html

Number one is San Ramon, mostly due to money from tech. In this city, 43% of population is Asian, many of whom are 1st generation immigrants, who have had H1bs at some point.

It disproves two myths that exist in your universe.
1. Tech workers are paid less.
2. Immigrant tech workers are paid less that others.

Dan8267 says

And once the labor has all been outsourced to the third world, management can be too. In fact, it will be necessary. Those managers better be close to retirement.

That should be. Most products that go into maintenance mode are no longer developed here. Eventually they will be done by robots.

What you and a few other don't understand there is no law of conservation of jobs. Jobs are created and destroyed. That's how human civilization has been progressing. No government can change that natural progress through legislation.

Only hard work creates wealth, and that creates real productive jobs. Hiding inside the cradle of the almighty government doesn't create wealth and prosperity.

The country will do well no matter how many jobs are created overseas as long as there are many doers and less whiners.

gsr says

Only hard work creates wealth, and that creates real productive jobs. Hiding inside the cradle of the almighty government doesn't create wealth and prosperity.

The country will do well no matter how many jobs are created overseas as long as there are many doers and less whiners.

That's right, trading currencies and futures is "hard work". BTW, that's how I'd earned $700K last year. It was a part of the P/L split of the overall company.

The fact of the matter was that, as an applied chemist, I'd worked a lot harder than in my current line of work, corralling money for trades. The difference is that today, I'm closer to the money action and thus, I get a piece of it. And in a few years, I'll be done and pursue medical school, so that I can derive some intrinsic value from my work, without some MBA-ologists, offshoring it for their benefit.

And yes, I agree, eventually most of the work will be done by robots and we'll all be living in a welfare state. But that's 2030, not today.

gsr says

What you and a few other don't understand there is no law of conservation of jobs.

When did I claim that?

What you don't realize is that the Tech Worker Shortage lie is simply a race to the bottom. A race to burn the nation's economic infrastructure and to sell the scrap at rock bottom prices. A few will make a profit on this, but ultimately productivity will plummet as a result. And it turns out that productivity, not growth, is what distinguishes a good economy from a bad one. But for those who cannot understand that, consider this: growth will be negative when the economic infrastructure is dismantled.

gsr says

Only hard work creates wealth, and that creates real productive jobs.

Are you claiming that the American STEM workers aren't working hard? That's bullshit. I pull 70 hour weeks regularly and I'm damn productive.

It is precisely the hard work of STEM workers that create wealth. Replace that with economic slave labor and you won't get the same wealth generation. This has already been empirically proved.

Furthermore, the decrease in wages and employment will reduce consumer spending, which accounts for 70% of economic activity. Gee, what's going to happen to all that economic activity as all jobs are shipped to third world countries? Outsourcing may be good in the short run for a company, unless of course, all other companies are also doing it. Then it's the Tragedy of the Commons and no one will by the company's product because all other companies have laid off the prospective customers.

Outsourcing is a far greater "vicious circle" than saving could ever be. Tell that to the Keynesians.

Rin says

That's right, trading currencies and futures is "hard work". BTW, that's how I'd earned $700K last year. It was a part of the P/L split of the overall company

Blame your uncle Ben for that. Not H1bs.

Dan8267 says

Are you claiming that the American STEM workers aren't working hard? That's bullshit. I pull 70 hour weeks regularly and I'm damn productive.

Are you saying anyone H1bs are not productive? That's damn prejudiced view point you have. Many people are productive. The world is competitive.

Dan8267 says

Furthermore, the decrease in wages and employment will reduce consumer spending, which accounts for 70% of economic activity. Gee, what's going to happen to all that economic activity as all jobs are shipped to third world countries?

That's should have happened years ago. Easy credit prevented the restructuring. You are prejudiced and foolish if you believe in race to bottom nonsense.
Under right conditions, new technology is created, which in turn generates new demand.

Netflix has cause loss of jobs of video store clerks. Manufacturing has been returning to the country, but with mostly robots, as they are cheaper than humans anywhere.
That's a race to the bottom as well according to you? Damn you are confused.

gsr says

Dan8267 says

Are you claiming that the American STEM workers aren't working hard? That's bullshit. I pull 70 hour weeks regularly and I'm damn productive.

Are you saying anyone H1bs are not productive? That's damn prejudiced view point you have. Many people are productive. The world is competitive.

And again you are trying to turn this into an immigrant bash fest.