patrick.net

indigenous says

Section 8 housing, WIC, emergency healthcare, children's education, child support for single mothers.

Emergency healthcare is not unique to California. Children's education is not unique to California.

Last I checked, none of the rest are going to illegal immigrants.

corntrollio says

Emergency healthcare is not unique to California. Children's education is not unique to California.

Last I checked, none of the rest are going to illegal immigrants.

My understanding is that 1/3 of the welfare in the US goes to Calif with 12% of the population. Unless that is not true, Calif is doing a shit load of welfare that is unique to Calif.

Food Stamps:
* over 47 million participants as of 2013...
* 4% are not citizens
* 1,888,000 non-citizens are receiving food stamps

Undocumented immigrants are ineligible for SNAP. Additionally, there is already a strict waiting period for documented immigrants. Documented adult immigrants (those with a greencard) are subject to a five-year waiting period before they are eligible for SNAP.
Noncitizens make up a very small portion of SNAP participants – only 4% of participants are noncitizens (documented immigrants
http://feedingamerica.org/how-we-fight-hunger/programs-and-services/public-assistance-programs/supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program/snap-myths-realities.aspx
http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/29snapcurrpp.htm

corntrollio says

SoftShell says

4- II's lie to obtain medical care


5- II's lie when obtaining food stamps


6- II's lie when obtaining unemployment benefits

Where are you getting this stuff?

Medical Care:

Under federal law, hospitals are required to provide emergency room care to everyone, regardless of ability to pay or immigration status.
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2012/october/11/health-care-immigrants.aspx

corntrollio says

SoftShell says

4- II's lie to obtain medical care


5- II's lie when obtaining food stamps


6- II's lie when obtaining unemployment benefits

Where are you getting this stuff?

Unemployment benefits being shortchanged due to illegal immigrants claiming false childcare benefits:

How easy it is.....

The ease with which the fraud is committed was revealed by an investigative reporter in Indiana in 2012:
An undocumented worker in southern Indiana told 13 Investigates just how easy it truly is.
He said four other illegal immigrants file tax returns using his address, even though none of them actually lives there. And he said this year those four workers filed tax returns claiming 20 children live inside his small trailer home. As a result, the IRS sent the illegal immigrants tax refunds totaling more than $29,000.
But none of the 20 children listed as dependents on the tax returns live in Indiana — or even in the United States.
"No, they don't live here," admitted the undocumented worker, who lives with his young daughter. "The other kids are in their country of origin, which is Mexico."
http://www.cis.org/cadman/gaming-system-illegal-aliens-1-unemployed-americans-0

And how this affects your unemployment benefits....

“I am not surprised that Senator Reid is backtracking,” said David North. The immigration-law expert praised GOP Sen. Kelly Ayotte, R-N.H., for her amendment to halt IRS child tax-credit refunds going to illegal immigrants.

“It provides money to the unemployed while taking undeserved tax refunds away from illegal aliens,” North said.

http://directorblue.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/yep-harry-reid-blocks-unemployment.html

corntrollio says

SoftShell says

4- II's lie to obtain medical care


5- II's lie when obtaining food stamps


6- II's lie when obtaining unemployment benefits

Where are you getting this stuff?

SoftShell says

Unemployment benefits being shortchanged due to illegal immigrants claiming false childcare benefits:

Good Work SoftShell, What about single mothers getting child support from the state?

Awesome SoftShell -- you just confirmed everything I said for #4 and #5 -- that you don't need to lie to obtain medical care and that undocumented immigrants are ineligible for food stamps. Note that it says green card holders must wait 5 years to be eligible for SNAP, which means they would typically be eligible for citizenship at that point.

If I were to be charitable, I'd say at best that you were making a tenuous connection for #6 re: unemployment benefits, but your argument for that is illogical and stupid -- there's no connection there in reality. That said, if an undocumented immigrant or his/her employer pays unemployment insurance on his/her behalf, I see no reason they shouldn't be eligible to get unemployment benefits -- paying into the system means you should get the benefits of that system. That means there's no need to lie to get the benefits when you've paid for them.

Moreover, most of the people committing tax fraud in the manner you're stating are probably either US citizens or documented immigrants, or are foreign fraudsters who don't live here. Trying to generalize from one case in a poorly written anti-immigration website is not really a way to prove this. In fact, if you had actually gone to the source article, that article points out that the IRS says that undocumented immigrants are permitted to get child tax credits under existing law:

The agency instead sent 13 Investigates a short statement (see below) saying it is following the law, and current tax law does not prevent undocumented workers from getting additional child tax credits. The IRS claims it can't change that without a new law.

http://www.wthr.com/story/17861738/will-lawmakers-act-to-close-tax-loophole-for-illegal-immigrants

Note that that means that these undocumented immigrants are actually paying their taxes and filing tax returns, which is something that dumbasses usually assert is non-existent. Just because a few bad actors are acting badly doesn't mean everyone is doing so.

Great!
I'm glad you are in 100% with the top 1% collecting full social security benefits when they hit 65.

corntrollio says

That said, if an undocumented immigrant or his/her employer pays unemployment insurance, I see no reason they shouldn't be eligible to get unemployment benefits -- paying into the system means you should get the benefits of that system.

Force paternity tests at gunpoint to verify the father, then make him pick trash off the interstates for 10-20 hrs/week so the mother can collect from the state.
They caused the hell.....make em pay.

indigenous says

SoftShell says

Unemployment benefits being shortchanged due to illegal immigrants claiming false childcare benefits:

Good Work SoftShell, What about single mothers getting child support from the state?

Wow, none of this shit has to do with voting ID laws. In fact, the alleged fraud has nothing to do with having an illegal status. Anyone can commit welfare fraud. And welfare fraud is utterly insignificant compare the massive wastes of corporate welfare and the warfare industry.

Yes, conservatives are so god-damn pissed off that a few lazy black people are abusing the system, but these are the indisputable facts.

1. There are no reliable statistics on total welfare fraud. No government agency or news agency has done the work to find out these statistics. The only reliable stats are for subsets of welfare and those stats indicate about 1% fraud.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/08/19/fox-misleadingly-hypes-13-percent-fraud-in-food/195462

2. The entire federal welfare budget for 2013 was $395.9 billion. That's all welfare including food stamps, assisted housing, and unemployment benefits.

Let's be highly skeptical and use 2% fraud even though no evidence supports such a high rate. That's $8 billion in welfare fraud.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/numbers

3. In contrast, the government spent $92 billion in fiscal year 2006 alone for corporate welfare. Most likely over $100 billion by 2013. That's over ten times as much money as the high estimate for welfare fraud. Yet, the free market conservatives don't bitch about this amount.

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/corporate-welfare-state-how-federal-government-subsidizes-us-businesses

4. In 1989, the Savings and Loan bailout cost over $200 billion. That's over $370 billion in today's money. To put that in perspective, the S&L bailout costs the same as over 46 years of welfare fraud using again the high estimate. Over 100 years of welfare fraud using middle of the road estimates. Yet, no complaints from conservatives about that bailout. Hell, they advocated it.

http://economics.about.com/od/governmenttheeconomy/a/savings_loan.htm

5. The Federal Government spent $820.2 on warfare in 2013. That's over 100 times as much as the welfare fraud using the high estimate. If conservatives were serious about small government or reducing spending, they would slash this budget by 90%, putting it in line with every other industrialized nation, almost all of which are our allies.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2014USbn_15bs2n_40#usgs302

6. The bank bailout of $16 trillion -- that's right, trillion, it starts with a T that stands for trouble -- in 2007 wasn't even the total cost of unregulated Wall Street's greed. But that alone is more than 2,000 years of welfare fraud using the high estimate. We're talking Biblical times here. And yet, conservatives still used our money to bail out the banks that should have rightfully failed under the free market.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2011/09/20/the-feds-16-trillion-bailouts-under-reported/

Let's just put this in a pie graph.

Anyone who actually cares about fiscal waste, would be more upset with corporate welfare, warfare spending, and the bank bailouts than about welfare fraud. The later is so utterly insignificant compare to each of the former three, that no one actually concerned about wasted tax payer dollars would even be slightly from the real waste.

So what is it about welfare that pisses off conservatives so damn much. It's not the money, clearly. I just can't put my finger on what crawls up the conservative butthole when it comes to the subject of welfare.

Damn, what could it be?

Charity emanates from church bingo's and other religious activities....
Not from the left, unless you are a liberal that opposes Dan's creational views.
I guess it's your right to fantasize about it though...

corntrollio says

If I were to be charitable,

SoftShell says

I'm glad you are in 100% with the top 1% collecting full social security benefits when they hit 65.

Well, the normal retirement age under Social Security for people born in 1937 and earlier is 65. From 1938-1959, there's a phase-in to raise the retirement age. If you were born in 1960 or later, the age is 67.

In addition, the top 1% only pay Social Security taxes based on the Social Security limit for each year, which for 2014 is $117K. Their benefits are already capped based on that tax payment. In addition, Social Security has a progressive benefit system (90/32/15), which means that relative to the amount paid into the system, the top 1% get less back than someone in the bottom 1%.

Maybe you should learn more about how Social Security works if you're going to comment on it. Are you actually proposing a change, or are you just throwing shit to see what sticks?

Dan8267 says

Wow, none of this shit has to do with voting ID laws.

Agree, it's just random untrue stuff stated by people who can't think critically. We can always find a few bad actors, but I'd guess more citizens commit welfare fraud than undocumented immigrants. Many undocumented immigrants are trying to stay under the radar -- that's why it's especially moronic to suggest that they are trying to commit voter fraud, which is one of the worst crimes you can commit (false claim to citizenship) as an undocumented immigrant if you have a pathway to citizenship.

It doesn't surprise me that the trolls here are ignorant about immigration laws either...

Dan8267 says

Anyone who actually cares about fiscal waste, would be more upset with corporate welfare, warfare spending, and the bank bailouts than about welfare fraud. The later is so utterly insignificant compare to each of the former three, that no one actually concerned about wasted tax payer dollars would even be slightly from the real waste.

Agreed. But there were politicians who opposed this, in both parties as well as independents. And if you break it out by party votes it does look worse for the Democrats.

Wow.
I've never met a professional extrapolator before....

corntrollio says

SoftShell says

I'm glad you are in 100% with the top 1% collecting full social security benefits when they hit 65.

corntrollio says

Maybe you should learn more about how Social Security works if you're going to comment on it.

You wage the wars that have the greatest chance of success.
Going up against the corporations that own us, or the war machine that protects us, or the banks that pay us is a fools errand.
There's nothing wrong with taking baby steps.....against all of them.
Eventually you will make inroads.

Dan8267 says

Anyone who actually cares about fiscal waste, would be more upset with corporate welfare, warfare spending, and the bank bailouts than about welfare fraud.

I think you have your head in the sand on this one.
You really think an undocumented immigrant gives a rat's ass about any of the proposed "pathways to citizenship" that both parties have proposed?
They are already here and don't give a shit about what's being proposed.

corntrollio says

that's why it's especially moronic to suggest that they are trying to commit voter fraud, which is one of the worst crimes you can commit (false claim to citizenship) as an undocumented immigrant if you have a pathway to citizenship.

SoftShell says

You really think an undocumented immigrant gives a rat's ass about any of the proposed "pathways to citizenship" that both parties have proposed?

They are already here and don't give a shit about what's being proposed.

Yes, and if you think that, you've probably never met or talked to an undocumented immigrant.

SoftShell says

I think you have your head in the sand on this one.

I'm certain that you have your head up your ass on this one. It's pretty clear that most of your claims and poorly written arguments come from there, considering they have little factual basis.

You've yet to explain why an undocumented immigrant would give a flying fuck about voting. Your argument is that we should all be afraid of this non-existent phenomenon and that's why we need voter ID laws, even though you have no proof that it happens in any appreciable numbers and you've presented no evidence that large numbers of undocumented immigrants even give a shit about voting. Failure to think critically is a big problem here.

Thats because I'm not one to hang with people that commit illegal acts.
Apparently you are.

corntrollio says

SoftShell says

You really think an undocumented immigrant gives a rat's ass about any of the proposed "pathways to citizenship" that both parties have proposed?


They are already here and don't give a shit about what's being proposed.

Yes, and if you think that, you've probably never met or talked to an undocumented immigrant.

Because it's so blatantly obvious.

Illegal immigrants have everything to gain by making sure the party that favors their presence and will offer them a 'no strings attached' chance at citizenship, democrats, are in power.

Looks like that flying fuck just landed....

corntrollio says

You've yet to explain why an undocumented immigrant would give a flying fuck about voting.

SoftShell says

Force paternity tests at gunpoint to verify the father, then make him pick trash off the interstates for 10-20 hrs/week so the mother can collect from the state.

They caused the hell.....make em pay.

But are they getting state child support (welfare) now?

Thus proving that the right actually gets ideas of substance passed that provides compassionate care to everyone.

PCGyver says

SoftShell says

Under federal law, hospitals are required to provide emergency room care to everyone, regardless of ability to pay or immigration status.

And who do we have to thank for EMTALA? 1986 wasn't that Ronald Reagan?

Depends on if the mother is receiving child support from the father.
If she files for government assistance for her child, the state will go after the father for CS payments, and keep anything they collect in return for the state providing the assistance.
If the father is supplying CS payments, not sure if the mother can collect anything from the state. Maybe the rules are different state by state?

indigenous says

SoftShell says

Force paternity tests at gunpoint to verify the father, then make him pick trash off the interstates for 10-20 hrs/week so the mother can collect from the state.

They caused the hell.....make em pay.

But are they getting state child support (welfare) now?

SoftShell says

You wage the wars that have the greatest chance of success.

Going up against the corporations that own us, or the war machine that protects us, or the banks that pay us is a fools errand.

Total cop out. And war profiteering actually endangers us. The more profit there is in war, the more war profiteers will cause cause and terrorism. This is obvious.

sbh says

SoftShell says

Thus proving that the right actually gets ideas of substance passed that provides compassionate care to everyone.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHa you're such a fucking idiot.

You give softshell far too much credit.

the only idiot i've ever fucked is your mother.

sbh says

SoftShell says

Thus proving that the right actually gets ideas of substance passed that provides compassionate care to everyone.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHa

sbh says

SoftShell says

Thus proving that the right actually gets ideas of substance passed that provides compassionate care to everyone.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHa you're such a fucking idiot.

I know...It's bitter, especially around here, to have to admit that EMTALA occurred under Reagan, the Republican's watch.

* requires hospitals to provide emergency health care treatment to all regardless of citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay.

* no reimbursement provisions, the ill person is provided totally free service.

Kinda blows a cannonhole in the standard liberal shtick painting the Right as uncaring to those in need.

bob2356 says

You give softshell far too much credit.

When the US has reached mexican levels of corruption, crime, and violence that is the standard for mexican politics I would be all in favor of such a card.

Why is it no can find all this voter fraud the voter ID is supposed to prevent? If you repeat a lie often enough some people believe it. Works for fox news.

bob2356 says

Why is it no can find all this voter fraud the voter ID is supposed to prevent?

OTOH ACORN doesn't exude integrity, would O have won with out them???

SoftShell says

I know...It's bitter, especially around here, to have to admit that EMTALA occurred under Reagan, the Republican's watch.

* requires hospitals to provide emergency health care treatment to all regardless of citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay.

* no reimbursement provisions, the ill person is provided totally free service.

Kinda blows a cannonhole in the standard liberal shtick painting the Right as uncaring to those in need.

Kind of blows not to know what you are talking about. EMTALA was 4 pages in the 600+ page COBRA bill. Someone in the democratic controlled house slipped it into COBRA probably because they wanted the corporate hospitals to stop dumping unprofitable medicare medicaid ER patients, while accepting them as regular admissions for more profitable procedures.

There isn't a record of who authored EMTALA, but I would be willing to bet it wasn't a repubilican.. It's not like the republican party went out and championed EMTALA, they didn't read the bill (Reagan certainly didn't read it) and didn't catch it is all.

On further review, I agree with you on this.
That was not what I was trying to say, but I shit it out, so I retract it, and replace it with this:

All the wars that need to be waged should be waged, both long term and short term. Some people prefer to prosecute the long term problems. I prefer to engage the situations that can be resolved in the near term as I am results oriented.

Feel free to rip my new position to shreds....

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

You wage the wars that have the greatest chance of success.


Going up against the corporations that own us, or the war machine that protects us, or the banks that pay us is a fools errand.

Total cop out.

This, truly, is Damning Evidence.

zzyzzx says

I agree...so why are you commenting on it?

bob2356 says

Kind of blows not to know what you are talking about.

bob2356 says

There isn't a record of who authored EMTALA, but I would be willing to bet it wasn't a repubilican.. It's not like the republican party went out and championed EMTALA, they didn't read the bill (Reagan certainly didn't read it) and didn't catch it is all.

indigenous says

bob2356 says

Why is it no can find all this voter fraud the voter ID is supposed to prevent?

OTOH ACORN doesn't exude integrity, would O have won with out them???

After tons of investigations no one found anything other than some fraudulent registrations from workers too lazy to actually go out and get real ones. Which doesn't matter since they would be rejected at the elections board anyway.

You do know the registrations get checked for validity by the election board don't you? You know that groups (like acorn) that collect registrations are required by law to turn them into the elections board even if they say mickey mouse and donald duck. Apparently soft shell doesn't.

I volunteered at the local elections board years ago for several elections. Maybe you should try it so you can see what nonsense all this election fraud bullshit is. Other than some local yokel podunk 200 vote elections all the election fraud today is done at the statehouse level by your elected officials. Things like redistricting, dumping voter records, putting 1 hard to get to election station in a poor area with thousands of voters, creative "problems" with the electronic voting machines (why would legislators specifically refuse to allow a duplicate paper copy of the votes as a backup I wonder), and yes voter id requirements.

Jesus Christ! Project much??

sbh says

SoftShell says

the only idiot i've ever fucked is your mother.

No one asked for your life story, and besides, witnesses testified you were soft the whole time, so she flipped you over and fisted you for 45 minutes.

bob2356 says

Things like redistricting

It is heartening to see Maxine Waters cry foul when she has been using gerrymandering to her benefit for years.

bob2356 says

dumping voter records

Do tell?

bob2356 says

putting 1 hard to get to election station in a poor area with thousands of voters

Please tell me more about that?

indigenous says

bob2356 says

Things like redistricting

It is heartening to see Maxine Waters cry foul when she has been using gerrymandering to her benefit for years.

bob2356 says

dumping voter records

Do tell?

bob2356 says

putting 1 hard to get to election station in a poor area with thousands of voters

Please tell me more about that?

Willfull ignorance isn't for me to correct. BTW I never said either party was more or less guilty. It must be so much easier to just regurgitate whatever gets poured into your brain rather than thinking for yourself. Maybe I'll have to try the FOX/AM dial or the flip side MSNBC/CNN one day to see.

bob2356 says

It must be so much easier to just regurgitate whatever gets poured into your brain rather than thinking for yourself.

Bullshit, I rarely lose a debate to you. You made the assertion so back it up otherwise I will ignore it.

SoftShell says

Illegal immigrants have everything to gain by making sure the party that favors their presence and will offer them a 'no strings attached' chance at citizenship, democrats, are in power.

That's absolute nonsense. Once again, no proof this is happening in any appreciable number, and you still don't understand the lack of incentive here.

Very little point discussing this with someone so willfully ignorant and who seems unable to think critically.

Agreed.
Let me know when you wise up.

corntrollio says

Very little point discussing this with someone so willfully ignorant and who seems unable to think critically.