patrick.net

Iosef V HydroCabron says

those who believe the Earth is not warming, and these solar-warming theorists? ... I sometimes see the same conservative pushing both theories.

Where?

curious2 says

I lose patience with fools copying and pasting "both parties are exactly the same" as their sarcastic response to the fact that both major parties are wrong. They are wrong in different ways. That doesn't make them the same, but it does give them one thing in common.

Careful you risk being called condescending or having your views being dismissed if you take that position!

thomaswong.1986 says

By burping, belching and excreting copious amounts of methane — a greenhouse gas that traps 20 times more heat than carbon dioxide — India's livestock of roughly 485 million (including sheep and goats) contributes more to global warming than the vehicles the animals obstruct.

What about all the belching and farting from over 1 billion Indians?

smaulgld says

are not speaking from any true knowledge or intelligence but rather from political bias.

The church and science once thought the sun revolved around the earth and insisted on that fact.

Conservatives deny global warming and liberals insist on it. Neither side will change their mind because to do so would be to abandon their tribe.

No: liberals will abandon their tribe. I have done so on gun control and many market solutions, and the entire liberal establishment has moved well to the right since 1980.

Conservatives will not, because the essence of conservatism lies above the actual ideology: you do not speak ill of a fellow Republican (Reagan quote).

Loyalty to the group supersedes even the details of the ideology, because it has become a religion.

Analyzer says

Good news for the California drought.

I wish I could give them 1/2 our rain for the rest of this year!

curious2 says

that capping and trading CO2 was always primarily about money and power not climate

the cap and trade as THE solution is very problematic.
It's just too coincidental that bankers stand to make fortunes from such a scheme while saving the planet. Are there other solutions or does asking make one a "denier"?

smaulgld says

What about the buffalo in their million hordes that used to tramp and burp across the US plains?

Shouldn't you go back to posing as a disinterested sage, above it all?

These idiotic remarks do nothing to help your image as a fount of third-way wisdom; the reveal you to be the right-wing asshole you really are, who has to appear moderate to whore yet another goldbug blog.

smaulgld says

Not trying to be condescending but it may come across that way when not trying to claim to know all there is to know on a very complex topic about how the earth works and humans' impact on it.

Perhaps you should leave it to the scientific establishment, then?

Iosef V HydroCabron says

solutions, and the entire liberal establishment has moved well to the right since 1980.

Conservatives will not, because the essence of conservatism lies above the actual ideology: you do not speak ill of a fellow Republican (Reagan quote).

You have taken you individual change and ascribed it to the entire group of liberals and then ascribed fixed traits to an entire group of conservatives.

There are individuals liberals AND conservatives who will abandon their tribe. Citing Reagan doesn't mean all conservatives follow everything he ever said.

But you are making a similar point -once in a tribe it's hard to abandon it. Yet you seem to be saying liberals, using your self as an example, are more likely to be open minded to changing their views than conservatives. I don't believe it!

Iosef V HydroCabron says

Perhaps you should leave it to the scientific establishment, then?

Which one?

Dan8267 says

Or in the case of climate change, because the same science that got us to the moon provides overwhelming physical and verifiable evidence and the same people who got us to the moon, NASA, confirms this science.

http://climate.nasa.gov/

go tell the Chinese about it... your wasting our time here.

stop blaming the US for all the worlds problems.. which you constantly

do...

smaulgld says

Iosef V HydroCabron says

Unfortunately for you, a situation in which one side (not saying which) is largely correct and the other is out to lunch would also produce the situation you describe, so your remarks add nothing to the conversation.

THAT is condescending! :When you dismiss someone else's opinion as adding nothing.

You are aware that you do just that ad nauseum with your "both sides do it" statements, yes?

Iosef V HydroCabron says

the reveal you to be the right-wing asshole you really are, who has to appear moderate to whore yet another goldbug blog.

Nice ad hominem attacks! Very credibility gaining indeed.

smaulgld says

Iosef V HydroCabron says

Perhaps you should leave it to the scientific establishment, then?

Which one?

The 97% of researchers who have concluded that (a) it's happening and (b) we did it.

For a neutral observer, you certainly make all the right-wing arguments fluently.

How long did it take such an independent humble thinker as yourself to learn to parrot all the talking points without thinking?

zzyzzx says

What about all the belching and farting from over 1 billion Indians?

lets face it... animals produce more shit left on the ground to produce
methane.

Iosef V HydroCabron says

The 97% of researchers who have concluded that (a) it's happening and (b) we did it.

who is "we".... send the bill to China and India.

thomaswong.1986 says

go tell the Chinese about it... your wasting our time here.

stop blaming the US for all the worlds problems.. which you constantly

do...

anyone want to chip in and buy Al Gore a one way ticket to China...

let him spread the word of Global Warming there...

Iosef V HydroCabron says

For a neutral observer, you certainly make all the right-wing arguments fluently.

Did it occur to you that each major party might be cherry-picking arguments from neutral observers, and not the other way around? You seem to accuse other people of being parrots, but accusations are not evidence, and I think you might have the causation backwards.

curious2 says

Iosef V HydroCabron says

those who believe the Earth is not warming, and these solar-warming theorists? ... I sometimes see the same conservative pushing both theories.

Where?

thomaswong.1986 says

Al Gore

Al Gore is fat, yes.

That means it's not man-made fer sure.

zzyzzx says

What about all the belching and farting from over 1 billion Indians?

Not to mention the Corn Complex, which replaces grass-fed, roaming cattle whose poop keeps marginal soils functioning, with feed lot cattle that produce far more methane - and other concentrated waste that poisons the rivers which leads to the oceans.

curious2 says

Iosef V HydroCabron says

For a neutral observer, you certainly make all the right-wing arguments fluently.

Did it occur to you that each major party might be cherry-picking arguments from neutral observers, and not the other way around? You seem to accuse other people of being parrots, but accusations are not evidence, and I think you might have the causation backwards.

curious2 says

Iosef V HydroCabron says

those who believe the Earth is not warming, and these solar-warming theorists? ... I sometimes see the same conservative pushing both theories.

Where?

Iosef V HydroCabron says

How long did it take such an independent humble thinker as yourself to learn to parrot all the talking points without thinking?
reveal you to be the right-wing asshole you really are, who has to appear moderate to whore yet another goldbug blog

I admire the incessant desire to employ the ad hominem mode of argumentation (name calling). I look forward to your next insult.

smaulgld says

I admire the incessant desire to employ the ad hominem mode of argumentation (name calling). I look forward to your next insult.

smaulgld says

Both sides are very self righteous on something they have little personal scientific knowledge of or understanding other than the talking points their political bosses feed them.

Do you actually believe that you're not insulting people here?

For someone who steps in to tell both sides why they're fools and followers, you are awfully sensitive.

Iosef V HydroCabron says

Al Gore is fat, yes.

That means it's not man-made fer sure.

those who believe and talk of Global Warming are all in the wrong place...

if you want to make an impact, move to China, where you clearly have issues of pollution.

else, your just wasting time and raking money from donors and book deals.

thunderlips11 says

Not to mention the Corn Complex....

Thanks - I did forget to mention them. Even if McDonald's raises wages to $15/hr for the workers who peddle the subsidized cornfed beef, there will remain the serious problem of methane emissions. And, regarding methane, there is a huge amount of methane hydrate [corrected - see below - thanks Iosef] on or near seafloors. As oceans warm, that will bubble up if we don't find a way to harvest it. Also ocean acidification due to industrial sulfuric acid emissions seems a more serious threat of extinction events than CO2 does, but I digress.

thomaswong.1986 says

else, your just wasting time and raking money from donors and book deals.

I'm awash in cash from this racket, no doubt.

You should see the massive payments I get from wealthy coastal liberal elites for posting this stuff.

thunderlips11 says

Not to mention the Corn Complex, which replaces grass-fed, roaming cattle whose poop keeps marginal soils functioning, with feed lot cattle that produce far more methane - and other concentrated waste that poisons the rivers which leads to the oceans.

there you go again... as if this is all USA fault. Lets starve the USA population to fix global warming, and let the polluting nations off
the hook..

this is why liberals keep failing... they blame the wrong party on the
problems.

curious2 says

Thanks - I did forget to mention them. Even if McDonald's raises wages to $15/hr for the workers who peddle the subsidized cornfed beef, there will remain the serious problem of methane emissions.

you guys are something else... now blame MCD for all the global warming and air pollution problems... such cowards.

If sea level rise is inevitable, low lying properties should start to lose value, especially those near water and close to sea level. These prices will tell you what people really believe.

I'm looking forward to picking up a cheap beach house if people really do fear these prognostications.

@Iosef V HydroCabron:

I've read a lot of the IPCC consensus, and they say basically that climate change is real (duh!) and that there is a strong _possibility_ that we may be responsible for _some_ of it. That's an unfalsifiable statement because of two layers of weasel words, so it can't be argued against. Anything between 0% and 100% falls inside this definition.

I've yet to see any credible science which says how much of climate change is due to us, which is critical in figuring out how our efforts can act against it. If we cut CO2 emission to zero, and thereby force most mankind into subsistence agriculture and starvation by effectively outlawing energy, how much difference would this make? Mankind currently emits 4% of the earth's annual CO2, mind you, this is a lot in an equilibrium system, so given the absolute best we can do, returning to the stone age, how much would that help?

Once we have that endpoint, and doing nothing as the other, we can make rational decision on what to do. How much climate change are we willing to accept to prevent human misery and suffering? Is it maybe more effective to adapt to the climate change for now?

Years ago Bjorn Lomborg pointed out, and more recently, Neil deGrasse Tyson reiterated, it may make sense to put those resources into developing science to solve the problem. Imagine if we could create artificial photosynthesis, allowing us to generate our own hydrocarbons from sunlight and atmospheric CO2, all fuel would now be carbon neutral and instantly usable by all existing fossil fuel based technology, this would be world changing! Or, if we improve LFTR reactor technology, giving us unlimited electricity, and even the ability to use waste heat to synthesize artificial gas or diesel for applications that can't be converted to power.

curious2 says

Also ocean acidification due to industrial sulfuric acid emissions seems a more serious threat of extinction events than CO2 does, but I digress.

so lets shut down all the Mfg factories in USA.... opps sorry! we aint got none. They all went to China!

curious2 says

Iosef V HydroCabron says

those who believe the Earth is not warming, and these solar-warming theorists? ... I sometimes see the same conservative pushing both theories.

Where?

Cabronsito not only is infatuated with sarcasm, he also loves building strawmen.

dodgerfanjohn says

Cabronsito not only is infatuated with sarcasm, he also loves building strawmen.

Hi Butthurt! (Is it all right if I call you "Butthurt"?)

How you doin' today?

curious2 says

thunderlips11 says

Not to mention the Corn Complex....

there will remain the serious problem of methane emissions. And, regarding methane, there is a huge amount of methane hyclate on or near seafloors. As oceans warm, that will bubble up if we don't find a way to harvest it.

Methane clathrates are one of the major longstanding concerns which add to the seriousness of the situation.

Also ocean acidification due to industrial sulfuric acid emissions seems a more serious threat of extinction events than CO2 does, but I digress.

No, you don't digress: ocean acidification results from absorption of CO2 by seawater.

I would cite references, but that would be "appeal to authority", which you hold a dim view of.

Iosef V HydroCabron says

Do you actually believe that you're not insulting people here?

For someone who steps in to tell both sides why they're fools and followers, you are awfully sensitive.

There is a difference in my comments and yours, sir. Yours attack the individual personally with name calling, ("gold bug whore", "Butthurt", "right wing asshole" ) my comments were geared towards a train of thought held by those that might be considered conservatives or liberals.

Iosef V HydroCabron says

ocean acidification results from absorption of CO2 by seawater.

And all the acid rain simply disappears? One area where the Obama administration has made real progress is in efforts to reduce midwestern sulfuric acid emissions that had been dumping sulfuric acid all over the northeast and into the north Atlantic. Polluters had shifted the problem by installing taller smokestacks to throw the emissions farther east, via atmospheric currents, so that their own states would not be affected. Now, if only we could encourage China to buy some better technology; Chinese soot travels across the pacific to Alaska (along with trace amounts of Fukushima radiation, but that's another topic; some CO2 fetishists want more nuclear power because in their minds CO2 is worse than nuclear radiation).

Iosef V HydroCabron says

I would cite references, but that would be "appeal to authority", which you hold a dim view of.

I don't like to call people liars, but surely you know the difference between "appeal to authority" (as in, 'Newt Gingrich said something so it must be right') and citing sources (as in, it isn't just an anonymous Internet commenter posting this under a fake name, there is actual evidence I can link to).

curious2 says

. Now, if only we could encourage China to buy some better technology;

why not built it in the USA free from Chinese Hackers/Spying and Chinese pollution?

why should we "encourage" them to make more jobs for Chinese workers while US workers go without a job and income ?

Iosef V HydroCabron says

Methane clathrates...

Thank you - I will correct that in my original comment, where I wrote hyclate by mistake. Typing quickly, I was probably confusing "hydrate" and "clathrate" and ended up with hyclate, a different word entirely.

smaulgld says

It's a political war on both sides, science be damned. The left wants global taxes and the bankers are drooling at the prospect of controlling a multi trillion dollar cap and trade credit market.

The right is denying anything needs to be done.

Both sides are driven by ideology not science.

You forgot about the third side, us. We want an end to the pollution driving climate change, disease, and ecological collapse. The third side is composed of some 200 million Americans and billions of other people.

thomaswong.1986 says

stop blaming the US for all the worlds problems.. which you constantly

Tommy-boy, you dumb ass. I've never said the problem was solely the U.S., but because Afghanistan, Sudan, and the United States were the only countries not to sign the Kyoto Agreement, and the U.S. is the only industrialized country that didn't sign, our predicament is largely due to the U.S. federal government.

And asswipe, insisting on policy change isn't a form of degrading one's country. It's a way of protecting one's country. America is already being hit hard by climate change in the form of droughts, flooding, severe winters, more frequent and powerful hurricanes, and agricultural problems. So, by denying climate change and action on it, you Tommy-boy, are assfucking America.

And the argument that because China has followed the precedent set by America, it's too late for us to do anything, is just fucking retarded like anyone who proposes it.

Dan8267 says

You forgot about the third side, us. We want an end to the pollution driving climate change, disease, and ecological collapse. The third side is composed of some 200 million Americans and billions of other people.

Confirmation bias. I believe most people to be far more concerned about what to eat, where to live, and how to survive than about ecological changes. Your third side claims to represent 200 million Americans and billions of other people.

Here in Silicon Valley, land of the Prius, Tesla, Nissan Leaf, and more hybrids than you can shake a stick at, we have the option of paying an extra $0.015/kWh for green power from Silicon Valley Green Power (http://siliconvalleypower.com/index.aspx?page=1950). Given our high electric rates, this is only a few percent extra. Participation rate is only 7%.

If you can only get 7% of people in a wealthy area to sign up, where the politicians tout the green mantra constantly, and many people are in-your-face about saving the Earth, you're pretty much doomed in this approach elsewhere.

Dan8267 says

Tommy-boy, you dumb ass. I've never said the problem was solely the U.S., but because Afghanistan, Sudan, and the United States were the only countries not to sign the Kyoto Agreement, and the U.S. is the only industrialized country that didn't sign, our predicament is largely due to the U.S. federal government.

Kyoto is meaningless. The signatories aren't conforming to it. Meanwhile, non-Kyoto US has reduced carbon emissions due to shifting electrical generation from coal to gas, thanks to fracking.

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/10/technologies-opposed-by-environmentalists-fracking-and-genetic-modification-have-cut-co2-emissions-to-20-yr-low/co2-7/

Here's a chart. I googled it, it happens to be on some conservative blog, feel free to google "united states carbon dioxide emissions" yourself and find an ideologically correct source if this one doesn't work. The graph will be similar.

Dan8267 says

hrhjuliet says

Politics should play absolutely no part in this issue.

Exactly. It is a matter of science and engineering. The fact that conservatives have turned it into a political subject and a culture war of rednecks vs. hippies is precisely the reason why conservatives should have no voice in this subject or in the legislation to deal with climate change. Conservatives are the environmental equivalent of Holocaust deniers.

Sad, but true.