patrick.net

corntrollio says

So no, no 15.4% anywhere.

It used to be, either way the point is the same.

No, you just can't do math and don't understand payroll tax.

6.2% + 6.2% + 1.45% + 1.45% = 15.3%. That's the self-employment rate for total payroll tax. You just don't understand how this works. It didn't used to be higher than 15.3% -- you just made that part up.

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JH 2014 May 28, 9:31am

I saw Tea Partiers holding up signs saying "Get your government hands off my Medicare." They couldn't understand why I was laughing at them.

Hahahha, that is too painfully ironic it hurts my brain.

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indigenous 2014 May 28, 9:44am

No, you just can't do math and don't understand payroll tax.

6.2% + 6.2% + 1.45% + 1.45% = 15.3%. That's the self-employment rate for total payroll tax. You just don't understand how this works. It didn't used to be higher than 15.3% -- you just made that part up.

It is not hard to understand, there is little point in separating the two they are services that few are going to realize but certainly paid for. Which is the point, not the minutiae.

Since employers have to compete for employees the 7.5% would go to the worker, if not paid to the government.

91 EBGuy 2014 May 28, 9:50am

Another poll showing "Minuteman" Donnelly ahead of "TARP bagman" Kashkari in the race for second place (CA open primary for governor).

92 corntrollio 2014 May 28, 10:43am

It is not hard to understand, there is little point in separating the two they are services that few are going to realize but certainly paid for. Which is the point, not the minutiae.

Since employers have to compete for employees the 7.5% would go to the worker, if not paid to the government.

There is no proof the 7.65% would go to the employees -- employers would just cut this cost if they could, like they've been doing with everything else (e.g. you can't argue Obamacare will cause employers to cut health insurance out of one side of your mouth, and then say they would pay an extra 7.65% to employees if not for payroll tax out of the other side of your mouth).

Furthermore, you misunderstood the numbers -- 2.9% is for Medicare, 12.4% is for Social Security. There was never any 15.4% going to Social Security like you stated above. You both misstated the number and where it was going because you didn't understand how payroll tax worked before I explained it to you.

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Bellingham Bill 2014 May 28, 10:49am

I saw Tea Partiers holding up signs saying "Get your government hands off my Medicare." They couldn't understand why I was laughing at them.

To be fair people -- half the boomers -- have been paying that 2-3% into the program all their lives and haven't drawn a penny out yet.

Now, their benefits helped pay for their parents' Medicare, but people don't think that way.

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indigenous 2014 May 28, 10:51am

There is no proof the 7.65% would go to the employees -- employers would just cut this cost if they could, like they've been doing with everything else (e.g. you can't argue Obamacare will cause employers to cut health insurance out of one side of your mouth, and then say they would pay an extra 7.65% to employees if not for payroll tax out of the other side of your mouth).

None but it would. To assume otherwise is like saying the money coerced from the economy by the government would not be spent in the free market.

Furthermore, you misunderstood the numbers -- 2.9% is for Medicare, 12.4% is for Social Security. There was never any 15.4% going to Social Security like you stated above. You both misstated the number and where it was going because you didn't understand how payroll tax worked before I explained it to you.

Yes dumbass I understand it, have been paying it for decades. The point once again is that people have been paying into a program deserve to get the benefits of that program.

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FortWayne 2014 May 28, 11:19am

I saw Tea Partiers holding up signs saying "Get your government hands off my Medicare." They couldn't understand why I was laughing at them.

Problem isn't them, problem is you not understanding them.

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JH 2014 May 28, 11:48am

FortWayne says

Problem isn't them, problem is you not understanding them.

Yeah, we all misunderstood the deeper fundamental reality. Like my parents, they want the services but not the associated taxes. Anything else is not patriotic.

The point once again is that people have been paying into a program deserve to get the benefits of that program.

Yes they do. So, putting 2.9% of $50k into an investment with 5% return over 30 years yields $100k. What happens once you hit $100k? Done. How long would that take a 65 year old to burn through?

Caveat: few were making $50k 30 years ago, so the $100k is inflated.

Bottom line: after you hit $100k in medical expenditures, you might want to change the wording on your sign.

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indigenous 2014 May 28, 12:16pm

What happens once you hit $100k? Done. How long would that take a 65 year old to burn through?

Don't know, consult LBJ.

98 bob2356 2014 May 28, 12:24pm

Since employers have to compete for employees the 7.5% would go to the worker, if not paid to the government.

Like they are competing now with all the raises and bonuses?

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indigenous 2014 May 28, 12:30pm

Like they are competing now with all the raises and bonuses?

Not so much at the moment but in the past certainly

100

JH 2014 May 28, 1:13pm

Don't know, consult LBJ.

So it is his fault that it is underfunded?

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indigenous 2014 May 28, 1:18pm

So it is his fault that it is underfunded?

Absolutely, with help from others since.

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JH 2014 May 28, 3:08pm

Absolutely, with help from others since.

Let us not forget the voters who elected them all...and now want more than $100k in free medical care

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indigenous 2014 May 28, 3:14pm

Let us not forget the voters who elected them all

You are preaching to the choir.

104 socal2 2014 May 29, 8:48am

Why don't the idiots ever want to talk about how awful public health care is in
Japan, Singapore, NZ, Oz, Norway, France, etc., etc..

Face it, US government bureaucracies are some of the most inefficient and incompetent organizations on the planet. EVERYTHING the US government does is far more expensive and wasteful than it needs to be. We spend far more per pupil on education than all OECD countries and get shitty results. Democrats ruined civil service once they allowed them to unionize.

What's your solution to our terrible education system Bob? Spend more money? Get more government involved?

What's your solution to the terrible VA scandal and treatment of our vets? Get more government involved? The government already runs everything at the VA and totally fucked it up. You want that kind of service for 300+ million of us?

What's your solution to the massive waste and fraud in Medicare? Get more government involved?

Can you point to a single well run government entitlement or service to give Libs their religious faith that moar government is the solution?

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Vicente 2014 May 29, 2:46pm

The premise of this thread is flawed.

The same monied ideologues who founded it, have temporarily decided to hide the powdered wigs in order to win the next election. Once the election is over and both bodies are firmly in GOTP control, they will be back with a vengeance.

Whether you call them Birchers or Teabaggers or simply peasants of Kochland, they are the same people.

106 bob2356 2014 May 29, 3:41pm

Democrats ruined civil service once they allowed them to unionize.

Actually the 62th congress that passed the Lloyd-Lafollette Act in 1912 was split with a democratic house and a republican senate. A republican, Taft, was president. Don't let facts screw you up.

What's your solution to our terrible education system Bob? Spend more money? Get more government involved?

Perhaps you weren't aware of it but the US government doesn't run schools in the US, local school boards do. The US doesn't spend more than than all other oecd countries.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp " In terms of countriesâ€™ expenditures by education level, the percentage of GDP the United States spent on elementary and secondary education was similar to the OECD average percentage of GDP spent on elementary and secondary education (4.0 percent each)."

The US is mid pack in results. But the leading countries don't have anywhere near the social problems or poverty of the US. I'm not aware of any other OECD country educating 12 million illegals disadvanteged (to say the least) children living in poverty for example. Things could certainly be better but your argument doesn't wash on the facts. Terrible? Get a grip. Don't let facts screw you up.

What's your solution to the terrible VA scandal and treatment of our vets? Get more government involved? The government already runs everything at the VA and totally fucked it up

Should have never happened. Congress is totally responsible for providing adequate oversight and failed miserably. Not the first or last time it will happen. Good thing there has never been a massive scandal in the private sector. Say like Enron or Madoff or Worldcom. Nope lying cheating and stealing would never happen outside of government.

What's your solution to the massive waste and fraud in Medicare? Get more government involved?

Massive? If medicare didn't have fee for service then there wouldn't be any way to commit fraud. Like public health care around the world that deliver better results for half the cost.

If medicare is so bad then were increases in medicare less then private insurance for the last 15 years. Why is medicare close to the per beneficiary cost of private insurance at $8500 when medicare takes over 65 (aka the old and sick) and private insurance under 65?

I'm far from being a fan of medicare, but it does a decent job.

Can you point to a single well run government entitlement or service to give Libs their religious faith that moar government is the solution?

I'm not a liberal and don't have religious faith the "moar" government is the solution. There are area's where government makes more sense, there are area's where private makes more sense. There are plenty of well run government services and even a couple well run entitlements, but since your version of religious faith won't accept that thought going over them is utterly pointless.

So can you point to the US health system that is not government and call it well run based on the cost and results? I don't think so.

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FortWayne 2014 May 30, 2:24am

FortWayne says

Problem isn't them, problem is you not understanding them.

Yeah, we all misunderstood the deeper fundamental reality. Like my parents, they want the services but not the associated taxes. Anything else is not patriotic.

And your parents were right. If 1% of the population owns 99% of the money and the politicians, than they should pay for the 99% of the services.

I think that's a very conservative and a fair deal. Why burden the poor and the middle class when they do all the work anyway. I think the 1% is not paying their fair share! We the 99% do not work for free, we are not the bitch for the 1%, we deserve what we earn!

108 edvard2 2014 May 30, 2:37am

Vicente says

The premise of this thread is flawed.

The same monied ideologues who founded it, have temporarily decided to hide the powdered wigs in order to win the next election. Once the election is over and both bodies are firmly in GOTP control, they will be back with a vengeance.

Yes and no. Sure- the monied guys who setup the tea party will likely continue to stick their fingers into politics to get what they want via some sort of manipulation. The method this time was to get politicians into congress using a fake grass roots "movement". Now that has failed they'll pull their money and as you mentioned- will probably come up with some other bullshit thing the next election cycle.

But for all practical purposes the tea party is done.

109 corntrollio 2014 May 30, 3:32am

What's your solution to the massive waste and fraud in Medicare? Get more government involved?

Can you point to a single well run government entitlement or service

Yes, Medicare. It has much less waste and fraud than private insurance. This has been shown through numerous studies. See also what bob said above.

110

JH 2014 May 30, 3:32am

FortWayne says

And your parents were right. If 1% of the population owns 99% of the money and the politicians, than they should pay for the 99% of the services.

Huh? It was the politicians that my parents voted into office who cut taxes on the 1%. Look at the difference in tax rates from 1980 to today. Sure they have come down across the board but nobody has benefited than the top. And now my parents will get the health care they (and the rich) didn't pay enough for.

If you are saying that my parents are right to demand that the top earners pay for middle class services, fine. But that is not how conservatives have voted for 40 years now, unfortunately. The Republican way is to cut taxes, especially on top earners, to increase tax receipts. It's not a ridiculous policy, but it doesn't work when the same Republicans promote deficit spending. These are two stimuli that are at odds with each other.

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indigenous 2014 May 30, 3:46am

Yes, Medicare. It has much less waste and fraud than private insurance. This has been shown through numerous studies. See also what bob said above.

You have to be kidding...

112 socal2 2014 Jun 2, 7:24am

The US doesn't spend more than than all other oecd countries.

"The United States spent more than $11,000 per elementary student in 2010 and more than $12,000 per high school student. When researchers factored in the cost for programs after high school education such as college or vocational training, the United States spent $15,171 on each young person in the system â€” more than any other nation covered in the report."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/

Should have never happened. Congress is totally responsible for providing
adequate oversight and failed miserably. Not the first or last time it will
happen. Good thing there has never been a massive scandal in the private sector.
Say like Enron or Madoff or Worldcom. Nope lying cheating and stealing would
never happen outside of government.

Last I checked, lots of people at Enron, Worldcom and Madoff went to jail, paid fines or lost their jobs. New laws were written (Sarbanes-Oxley) to force more regulations on private sector accounting. Want to bet that no-one will go to jail over letting our vets die while they doctored the books to keep their bonuses? Hell, I bet few will even lose their jobs.

Obama was on Veterans Affairs committee in the Senate and campaigned over 6 years ago to fix these problems. If we can't reform the corrupt VA bureaucracy with bi-partisan support in all this time, where do you get your faith that the government can run something like our healthcare?

Just a few years ago, people like Paul Krugman and Ezra Klein were claiming that the VA is so well run that it should be a model for Single Payer for the rest of the country.

We have a combination of government fan-boys in our media and economic academia who refuse to aknowledge the problem - along with a corrupt and incompetent civil service bureaucracy with 20th century labor rules that make reform impossible.

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Vicente 2014 Jun 2, 2:00pm