patrick.net

Any ideas what their children would look like?

I'm looking forward to Michael Moore making a movie on the nature of marriage, divorce and family courts in the US. That should be a treat, and maybe an eye-opener for progressives who unfortunately often are quite blind to injustices against men.

Moore is an excellent film-maker and a voice of working people, and I do not envy him his $50 million or whatever.

tatupu70 says

Heraclitusstudent says

Warren Buffet criticizes fiscal policies while profiting from them.

That's not hypocrisy either, in reality. He is criticizing current policy because he wants it changed. He still lives under those rules, however, so he may as well behave accordingly.

Of course it is hypocrisy. Nothing is stopping him from dissolving his government/taxpayer backstopped operation and send checks to the middle class to undo the damage done while living the rest of his life as a trappist monk. And reinstate his granddaughter he disowned for pointing out his hypocrisy in his will.

SoftShell says

Why should I have to?

You already did.

Dan8267 says

You have yet to point out a single "spot" on Michael Moore.

Because my specific criticism of one of Moore's movies, Sicko, does not undermine the thesis of that movie or show Moore to be dishonest or hypocritical in any way.

The movie Sicko makes a case that stands on a dozen legs. Removing just one of these legs does not make the case fall.

Hence, unless you are willing to accept that Moore is a great man bringing attention to worthy causes, you need to actually point out some flaws in his arguments. Alternatively, you conservatives could admit defeat and shut the hell up.

mell says

"the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own
behavior does not conform"

So, he believes that GOVERNMENT tax policy should be set up in a certain way that is different from current US law.

If Buffet were President and set up a tax policy that had an exception for the ultra wealthy--then he'd be a hypocrite.

As a citizen following current tax policy--he is most definitely NOT.

justme says

I'm looking forward to Michael Moore making a movie on the nature of marriage, divorce and family courts in the US.

I think we have a winner!!!

jazz music says

Money to dominate broadcast media with talking points and attack on other nominees on election week is propaganda not CHARITY. Legally it has been defined as charity so there's an example of corruption in US elections.

I asked what prevents him from donating to charity that he likes, or creating his own. You say some X is not a charity. That's totally irrelevant to this discussion.
It does not let him escape from his own responsibilities.

tatupu70 says

s a citizen following current tax policy--he is most definitely NOT

He is free to send more of his money to IRS. It seems he does not want to do that voluntarily.

gsr says

He is free to send more of his money to IRS. It seems he does not want to do
that voluntarily.

Nope- of course not. He realizes that sending his money to the IRS doesn't solve the problem and he wants to solve the problem.

tatupu70 says

He realizes that sending his money to the IRS doesn't solve the problem and he wants to solve the problem.

It does. It is called leading by example.

gsr says

It does. It is called leading by example.

lol--I hope that's a joke.

tatupu70 says

gsr says

He is free to send more of his money to IRS. It seems he does not want to do

that voluntarily.

Nope- of course not. He realizes that sending his money to the IRS doesn't solve the problem and he wants to solve the problem.

Oh dear. What problem do you think your uncle warren wants to solve?

errc says

Oh dear. What problem do you think your uncle warren wants to solve?

You honestly don't know? He'd like to address wealth disparity by adjusting the tax code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffett_Rule

Certainly you've heard the story about the CEO paying a smaller percentage than his secretary?

And next time someone says that the two parties are the same, note this section:

"Nearly every Republican congressman opposed the proposal"

tatupu70 says

gsr says

It does. It is called leading by example.

lol--I hope that's a joke.

Here is what his company does currently:
"
Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Owes Taxes Going Back To 2002
"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/29/warren-buffett-taxes-berkshire-hathaway_n_941099.html

gsr says

Here is what his company does currently:
"
Warren Buffett's Berkshire
Hathaway Owes Taxes Going Back To 2002
"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/29/warren-buffett-taxes-berkshire-hathaway_n_941099.html

And your point is?

tatupu70 says

And your point is?

If you don't understand, there is no hope for you.

gsr says

If you don't understand, there is no hope for you.

I think I understand better than you. You're trying to assert that Buffett is instructing his company to purposely avoid paying taxes. Is that correct?

Do you have any evidence to back that up? Because the article you provided certainly doesn't say that.

tatupu70 says

I think I understand better than you. You're trying to assert that Buffett is instructing his company to purposely avoid paying taxes. Is that correct?

Your answer would be completely opposite if we replace Warren Buffet with Mitt Romney and Berkshire Hathaway with Bain Capital.

gsr says

Your answer would be completely opposite if we replace Warren Buffet with
Mitt Romney and Berkshire Hathaway with Bain Capital.

And why do you think that is?

Two fat whales can't have a "cat fight", they have "flipper fights" or "blubber bashes" etc.

Somewhere a circus is missing its fatman/fatwoman tag team.

Being raped, plundered and held hostage by lawyers is an appropriate, ironic denouement for the Moore Heap, since he obviously thinks it is great when they sue everybody else for a trumped up cause.

You can't make this shit up!!

Dan8267 says

In Moore's film Sicko, Cuba's medical system was made out to be nearly perfect with everyone happy. ABC News reports that this assessment, although not without basis, is not accurate. The hospital Moore went to is not representative of one the typical Cuban would have access to.

Dan8267 says

Because my specific criticism of one of Moore's movies, Sicko, does not undermine the thesis of that movie or show Moore to be dishonest or hypocritical in any way.

I didn't want to beat this dead horse, but now that you mention it.....

prodigy says

You can't make this shit up!!

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

She's immense,

Likely she gave Hilary brain damage by trying to sit on her face and missed.

Moore's ex looks like she could twerk decapitate with a single butt cheek from a yard away. She is likely Hilary/Michelle recruitment material.

Ceffer says

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

She's immense,

Likely she gave Hilary brain damage by trying to sit on her face and missed.

Moore's ex looks like she could twerk decapitate with a single butt cheek from a yard away. She is likely Hilary/Michelle recruitment material.

None of them have any taste.

But…this is a guy who has railed against wealth in America for years: “fat-cat corporations,” “one-percenters,” “rich Republicans,” on and on.

Remember, everyone: this indicates that Moore is a hypocrite.

However, an anti-immigrant conservative who hires illegal aliens is not a hypocrite.

Simple enough to understand.

prodigy says

You can't make this shit up!!

Dan8267 says

In Moore's film Sicko, Cuba's medical system was made out to be nearly perfect with everyone happy. ABC News reports that this assessment, although not without basis, is not accurate. The hospital Moore went to is not representative of one the typical Cuban would have access to.

Dan8267 says

Because my specific criticism of one of Moore's movies, Sicko, does not undermine the thesis of that movie or show Moore to be dishonest or hypocritical in any way.

Man, you guys are grasping at straws. Are you seriously implying that the article I reference is calling Moore an out-right liar? Did you even read the article or even objectively read my posts? It's just pathetic when conservatives grasp at straws for the sole objective of poisoning the well, which is all you're trying to do anyway.

Statistics from the World Health Organization and the CIA show that infant mortality in Cuba is significantly lower than in the United States. So it's not like Moore was pulling anything out of his ass.

But, for sake of argument, let's call the Cuba thing completely wrong. You conservatives are still grasping at straws because
1. The error was not deliberate in contrast to what conservatives do, i.e. lying.
2. Removing Cuba as an example -- hell, even making Cuba an example of a terrible health care system -- does not undermine the premise of the film Sicko because the U.S. heath care system is still terrible while Canadian and Europeans, who use socialized medicine, have far superior health care systems, life expectancy, and health.
3. Even if Moore had lied about Cuba -- which he clearly did not -- it would not mean the rest of Sicko or any of his other films were inaccurate. The mere fact that only I, a liberal, could find ANY flaws in Moore's arguments proves that you conservatives don't have a problem with the facts of Moore's films; you just don't want the crappy systems fixed.

So try and poison the well all you want. It doesn't change the fact that Sicko and all other Moore films were spot on. The American health care system before Obamacare was a complete fucking joke that cost more lives than if a 9/11 happened 10 times a year every fucking year. And that's a damn conservative estimate that doesn't include the multitudes of people who die because their health insurance providers weasel their way out of covering treatments as shown in Sicko.

Is Obamacare crap? Yes, it lacks
1. Single Payer
2. Nationalization of health insurance.
3. Socializing the costs of health care across the entire country.

I.e., it's nothing like European socialized medicine. Not even the first step. The problem with Obamacare is that it isn't socialized medicine, which empirically works better than capitalism. And don't give me any free market bullshit. Capitalism not only killed the free market, it killed the health care market altogether. There literally is NO market or anything resembling a market, free or otherwise, in health care. Unregulated capitalism always eliminates free markets.

But the fact remains that every single problem Moore pointed out in any of his movies is spot on. And you conservatives have presented to evidence that Moore is wrong on any of this issues or that any problem he pointed out isn't real or damn important.

No.
Prodigy has shown that you can't make your sun-baked mind up on your position.

In one post you imply that moore was dishonest by using as an example a cuban hospital that is not at all representative of the care cubans receive.

In the next post you say that moore is not dishonest or hypocritical in any way.

So which is it?
Or does your position wax and wane on whether the next crazy ivan is to starboard?

Dan8267 says

Are you seriously implying that the article I reference is calling Moore an out-right liar?

Dan8267 says

prodigy says

You can't make this shit up!!

Dan8267 says

In Moore's film Sicko, Cuba's medical system was made out to be nearly perfect with everyone happy. ABC News reports that this assessment, although not without basis, is not accurate. The hospital Moore went to is not representative of one the typical Cuban would have access to.

Dan8267 says

Dan8267 says

Because my specific criticism of one of Moore's movies, Sicko, does not undermine the thesis of that movie or show Moore to be dishonest or hypocritical in any way.

tatupu70 says

errc says

Oh dear. What problem do you think your uncle warren wants to solve?

You honestly don't know? He'd like to address wealth disparity by adjusting the tax code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffett_Rule

Certainly you've heard the story about the CEO paying a smaller percentage than his secretary?

And you feel this addresses wealth disparity, how?

SoftShell says

No.

Prodigy has shown that you can't make your sun-baked mind up on your position.

Only a retard would come to that conclusion. My position is quite clear and consistent. Conservatives are unable to come up with any real complaints about or counterarguments to Moore's movies. I demonstrate exactly what a legitimate complaint would look like by providing one. Instead of learning from the example and looking for other valid counterarguments, conservatives demonstrated their sheer lack of intelligence by misrepresenting the counter-argument I made.

Moore's movie Sicko demonstrates that the pre-Obamacare health insurance industry was killing people by denying them access to health insurance that they paid for through their insurance premiums. It showed that our health care system was broken. It supported this thesis with dozens of lines of evidence. My counter-argument has been that one line of evidence, the Cuban one, was flawed. I never stated that Moore was being deceptive or that the other lines of evidence were flawed. I never stated that removing one of the dozens of independent supports for this thesis invalidated his thesis. Of course, that cannot be the case.

If you provide ten mathematical proofs of a theorem and only nine turn out to be correct proofs, that doesn't make the theorem false. This is basic math, something conservatives suck ass at, which is why they are lousy at economics.

As I stated, instead of learning from my example of how to construct a legitimate counter-argument, the dumb ass conservatives went back to your stupid playbook of taking a true statement and deliberately misinterpreting it to mean something completely different. That's call a Straw Man argument. You then use that Straw Man to try to poison the well by getting gullible people, the ones likely to vote conservative, to think that (1) Moore is a bad person and a liar, which is bullshit, and (2) that anything he says should be simply discredited because he said it, which is also bullshit. One should simply look at the data that Moore references to judge whether or not his statements are accurate. That data is independent of who quotes it and therefore it is irrelevant that Moore produced the film Sicko and Ronald Reagan did not. The truth of the subject matter can be verified or discredited by the evidence itself.

It does not matter who performs the experiment; it should be repeatable. That's another thing you dumb ass conservatives don't get. Appeal to authority means nothing.

SoftShell says

In one post you imply that moore was dishonest by using as an example a cuban hospital that is not at all representative of the care cubans receive.

In the next post you say that moore is not dishonest or hypocritical in any way.

So which is it?

I did not post anything that even remotely implies that Moore is dishonest. Nor would I. If I wanted to make the point that Moore is dishonest, I would directly accuse him of being so and I would give ample justification for that statement. I don't do subtlety. In case you haven't noticed, whenever I tear apart any of your conservative bullshit, I'm not gentle or subtle about it. I nuke bad arguments; I don't slyly sabotage them.

If you actually believe I was implying that Moore was lying or deliberately misleading the public, then you are merely projecting your desires on my posts in stark contrast to reality.

Of course, we all know why you are doing this. You conservative absolutely hate and fear any clear minded political opposition because you know you can't win on facts and against rational arguments. So you have to make every issue an us verses them issue in which people vote, not based on the truth or rational and pragmatic interests, but rather on a ridiculous culture war. Are you a cowboy or a hippie. Well, assholes, I'm neither. I'm an engineer and my vote is based on what nature does, not who sponsors NASCAR. That is why, as I clearly demonstrated in this thread, that I have no problem pointing out any flaws in an argument that supports my position. Doing so does not weaken my position because the only reason I hold that position is that there are other, legitimate reasons for doing so.

Conservatives turn all of politics into a religion. Ideology is never subject to empirical results. The free market works all the time no matter how many times it fails. Capitalism always supports the free market even when it destroys the free market as it did in health insurance. Trickle down economics works no matter how much evidence says otherwise. These are conservative dogmas and they are no more subject to evidence or the scientific method than the existence of the blue-eyed, Caucasian god Jesus who was born of a virgin and rose from the dead.

This is why conservatives are idiots and their policies don't work for shit. Economics and governing is a matter of engineering, not religion, and as such is subject to the scientific method and empirical verification. Science is self-correcting; religion refuses any correction even that imposed from without. The bubble that conservatives live in is identical to the bubble that Muslim fundamentalists live in. Obama is the great Satan is no different from the U.S. is the great Satan. I'm just surprised that conservatives haven't flow any planes into buildings. I guess they are just not competent enough to pull that off.

errc says

And you feel this addresses wealth disparity, how?

By making the tax structure more progressive.

Dan8267 says

My position is quite clear an consistent.

No, it is not. Nice try though at hiding your fuckup in an ocean of syllables.
Bottom line is you just can't run away from the two diametrically opposed statements you made.
There they are in all their glory, below. So once again:
Which is it?
Or does your position wax and wane on whether the next crazy ivan is to starboard?

Dan8267 says

You can't make this shit up!!

Dan8267 says

In Moore's film Sicko, Cuba's medical system was made out to be nearly perfect with everyone happy. ABC News reports that this assessment, although not without basis, is not accurate. The hospital Moore went to is not representative of one the typical Cuban would have access to.

Dan8267 says

Dan8267 says

Because my specific criticism of one of Moore's movies, Sicko, does not undermine the thesis of that movie or show Moore to be dishonest or hypocritical in any way.

SoftShell says

No, it is not. Nice try though at hiding your fuckup in an ocean of syllables.

I'm sorry. Do words with multiple syllables confuse you?

SoftShell says

Bottom line is you just can't run away from the two diametrically opposed statements you made.

There is nothing diametrically opposing to state that Conclusion X is valid because of reasons 1, 2, 3, ... 20, but not because of reason 21, which is flawed. If you cannot comprehend this, then that is simply further proof of the genetic and physical inferiority of conservative brains. See Social conservatives are just stupid bigots and now science has proved that and MRI study suggests liberal brains understand complexity, conservative minds are associated with anxiety and fear. You are currently providing a real world example of the accuracy of those posts.

The reasoning is simple and easy enough for any sound ten-year-old to follow. If you cannot understand it, that's on you. And simply repeating your incorrect assumptions does not make any case that your assumptions are correct. The truth is not determined by repetition of falsehoods.

SoftShell says

The hospital Moore went to is not representative of one the typical Cuban would have access to.

SoftShell says

Because my specific criticism of one of Moore's movies, Sicko, does not undermine the thesis of that movie or show Moore to be dishonest or hypocritical in any way.

These are in no way contradicting statements. At this point, I have to question your comprehension of even basic English.

A statement can be inaccurate without being a lie. A person can make a case that is flawed without being a hypocrite. Lack of perfection does not indicate deception or hypocrisy. It merely indicates that a person is human and capable of making mistakes.

Furthermore, the mistake I submitted that Moore made in Sicko does not in any way undermine the case the movie makes that the pre-Obamacare health care system was completely fucked up, unjust, and cost the lives of multitudes of Americans.

But let's get to the real issue. The premise of Sicko was that the health care system was terrible. Do you actually disagree with that statement? Forget about what you think about Obamacare; that's a separate issue. Do you think the health care system in 2007 suffered only from minor problems? Do you think it was a good system?

If the answer is yes, you're an idiot. If the answer is no, you agree with Michael Moore's premise in Sicko. So, which is it?

For the rest of America, this issue has already been decided. Moore was right. The health care system was fundamentally broken. It's debatable how much Obamacare fixed that or even if the ACA is a step in the right direction, but it is indisputable that the pre-ACA system was doomed to failure and killing more Americans than having an 9/11 tragedy every single month. History has proven Moore's complaints about the pre-ACA health care system to be absolutely true and valid.

jazz music says

Liberal fantasy world? Rich man's game? Today's politics is no game ASSHOLE, it is about our struggle for life against early death and a decent future for the children.

What future do the "bad school" district kids have, or do you just expect the tax payers to foot their bill the rest of their lives. And they aren't meant to have a better education.

Look don't bitch at me, I didn't elect Obama you did.

jazz music says

The first union, the maritime, was formed by brave maritime workers and with violence against thugs the owners of ships hired.

Don't flatter this wretched lot that is Unions today, by comparing those entitled assholes to those men who fought to create the SSIU.

jazz music says

I see the right being manipulated very directly and shrewdly by billionaires in energy, banking and media to clean up what is left of this gutted country.

And I see the Left manipulating the banking and media to clean up what is left of this gutted country.

Glad to see we see eye to eye on some things.

Of course they are not, when you truncate them.

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

The hospital Moore went to is not representative of one the typical Cuban would have access to.

SoftShell says

Because my specific criticism of one of Moore's movies, Sicko, does not undermine the thesis of that movie or show Moore to be dishonest or hypocritical in any way.

These are in no way contradicting statements.

Here, try the originals and reload.

SoftShell says

Dan8267 says

You can't make this shit up!!

Dan8267 says

In Moore's film Sicko, Cuba's medical system was made out to be nearly perfect with everyone happy. ABC News reports that this assessment, although not without basis, is not accurate. The hospital Moore went to is not representative of one the typical Cuban would have access to.

SoftShell says

Dan8267 says

Dan8267 says

Because my specific criticism of one of Moore's movies, Sicko, does not undermine the thesis of that movie or show Moore to be dishonest or hypocritical in any way.

FYI, making a documentary about something that is known by the director/producer to be "not accurate" is equivalent to being "dishonest".

Therefore, your statement "does not undermine the thesis of that movie or show Moore to be dishonest" is, in itself, dishonest.