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CrazyMan
2014 Jul 10, 5:15am
Family is all that matters. Everything else is just noise.
This.
I used to not want to have kids, but last year I got married and we now have a 6 month old girl.
It's the best thing to ever happen to me. I absolutely love it.
Dan8267
2014 Jul 10, 5:37am
Not compared to spending your life for your own pleasure and self-satisfaction.
Rin hardly comes off as saying he's spending his life own his own "pleasure and self-satisfaction". He sounds like he wants to spend his life doing what he believes is meaningful, and if you want to call that "self-satisfaction" then, really, what's the alternative.
One could say that if a person values world peace and dedicates his life to that cause, the person is pursuing self-satisfaction. But I would not say that's a bad thing. Ultimately, pursing anything you find meaningful is satisfying almost as a truism.
Of course, people will disagree on what is meaningful, but ultimately each individual has to make this decision for himself. I follow the Richard Feynman philosophy, What do you care what other people think?.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 5:48am
Rin hardly comes off as saying he's spending his life own his own "pleasure and self-satisfaction". He sounds like he wants to spend his life doing what he believes is meaningful, and if you want to call that "self-satisfaction" then, really, what's the alternative.
I believe that these are the types of ppl, who basically see kids, as extensions, psychologically or spiritually, of themselves. Thus, the credo is raise a family and suddenly, as a person, you're larger than yourself. I look at it as Taoism for mainstreamers, who'd failed at becoming Shaolin (or Samurai) or didn't even have the gumption to get started.
In reality, most ppl have no purpose to their lives. Sure, have kids. And there you have it ... a culturally sanctioned purpose.
But if you're different and decide that you'd rather write your great American novel... and then what? You get the label of a Hemingway or Melville wannabe. That's not good enough for mainstreamers, who needs approval for their day to day actions.
Realize, Melville's fame, came long after his death. The important thing is that while he was around, that he was writing.
Heraclitusstudent
2014 Jul 10, 5:58am
But if you're different and decide that you'd rather write your great American novel... and then what? You get the label of a Hemingway or Melville wannabe.
Interesting argument considering Hemingway and Melville both had children. Maybe a strong experience of life is necessary to write good novels?
HydroCabron
2014 Jul 10, 6:01am
last year I got married and we now have a 6 month old girl.
It's the best thing to ever happen to me. I absolutely love it.
How could we know you're telling the truth?
Inevitably, many people have children and regret doing so, some quite deeply. How often do you hear someone admit this?
They simply can't, because it's one of the least acceptable statements one can make in polite society. And it's not a decision you can back out of, so you're more likely to list what you like about it, than the downsides.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 6:02am
Interesting argument considering Hemingway and Melville both had children.
The point is that no one cares about Melville's children.
And remember the Ben Franklin to William Franklin situation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Franklin
William Franklin (ca. 1730 – November 1814) was an American soldier, attorney, and colonial administrator, the acknowledged illegitimate son of Benjamin Franklin. He was appointed as the last Colonial Governor of New Jersey (1763–76). Franklin was a steadfast Loyalist throughout the American War of Independence. As his father (Benjamin Franklin) was one of the most prominent Patriots and a Founding Father of the United States, their differences caused an irreconcilable break between them.
Following imprisonment during the war, in 1782 the younger Franklin went into exile in Britain. He lived in London until his death.
Heraclitusstudent
2014 Jul 10, 6:02am
Rin hardly comes off as saying he's spending his life own his own "pleasure and self-satisfaction".
You mean outside the discussions on what city has the best strippers?
(apparently Team USA (as in Vegas/Reno) sucks, literally)
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 6:04am
Inevitably, many people have children and regret doing so, some quite deeply. How often do you hear someone admit this?
They simply can't, because it's one of the least acceptable statements one can make in polite society
I knew a few who finally did admit that it was a mistake.
But yeah, it was in their 70s, after everyone had left the home and they finally parted ways with the misses.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 6:06am
You mean outside the discussions on what city has the best strippers?
Oh ... so now you're advocating celibacy or some 'meaningful' relationship?
Plus, have you heard of measured dosage?
Rin hardly comes off as saying he's spending his life own his own "pleasure and self-satisfaction".
You mean outside the discussions on what city has the best strippers?
(apparently Team USA (as in Vegas/Reno) sucks, literally)
I know, right!?
What kind of ASSHOLE won't conform to a monogamous relationship, filled with years of changing shitty diapers. What a real jerk
Shaman
2014 Jul 10, 6:14am
Having children is fairly easy and I'd agree with Dan that it's not inherently a noble venture.
However, being a good parent is always a noble thing to do. You can be a parent to kids that aren't your genetic offspring. You can be a parent to a niece or nephew or cousin who needs someone decent in their life. The reward for this is not found in how the children change but in how the self sacrifice changes you.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 6:16am
I know, right!?
What kind of ASSHOLE won't conform to a monogamous relationship, filled with years of changing shitty diapers. What a real jerk
The average professional male is suppose to want to be Society's B*tch.
I would've liked to have kids, I am 40, I guess I can still have them but the type of women I meet unfortunately I would never consider having kids with...sigh!
If I find a woman who has all her sh!t together in life, is emotionally stable, is remotely interesting which means she has some hobbies and is at least passionate about something in her life, is not conceited or materialistic, has a good upbeat attitude (does not constantly complain or is not in a constant state of pessimism) then I would definitely do it.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 6:47am
If I find a woman who has all her sh!t together in life, is emotionally stable, is remotely interesting which means she has some hobbies and is at least passionate about something in her life, is not conceited or materialistic, has a good upbeat attitude (does not constantly complain or is not in a constant state of pessimism) then I would definitely do it.
Unfortunately, for many men, that ship had sailed by the ages of 26 to 29. Those are usually the most sought after women and basically, guys try to marry 'em, just out of college or grad school.
Unfortunately, for many men, that ship had sailed by the ages of 26 to 29. Those are usually the most sought after women and basically, guys try to marry 'em, just out of college or grad school.
Well, I am still holding out some hope LOL! I started dating seriouly only very late in life, as in 32. Prior to that I was focused on my education and career... the rewards of which I am currently reaping. However, it has come at the cost of my personal life which is in a state of shambles. You're right I can't seem to find any woman in my age group who is devoid of serious emotional issues and other baggage.
Maybe the only option is to look for women between 26 and 29 overseas.. maybe! I know one person who did that and is happy but somehow I find it too risky!
Tenpoundbass
2014 Jul 10, 7:14am
Thus, my goal in life is to become independently wealthy and do the above.
And I wanted to be a Rock Star!
Life is what happens when you're trying to do something else.
With that said, I have no incentive nor motivation to have my own.
That's fine, just do the rest of us a favor, don't teach kids, and don't tell others how to parent.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 7:20am
I started dating seriouly only very late in life, as in 32.
Yes, avoid many (up to 85%) of US and Canadian women at this age.
I'd dated a Canadian, right before she'd turned 29. Afterwards, she kinda snapped into some Alanis Morrisette monster, blaming the world for her prior decisions. I was wondering if I'd slipped into a real life play/movie of the 'Jagged Little Pill' CD (minus "Head Over Feet", the song about being healthy).
What's happened is that you've crossed from the age of innocence and into the age of senescence for the typical North American woman. If you need some TV pointers, remember shows like 'Ally McBeal', 'Desperate Housewives', or 'Sex In The City'.
And here's a song for you as well ...
http://www.youtube.com/embed/bv4q4Kk0Qr0
Maybe the only option is to look for women between 26 and 29 overseas.. maybe! I know one person who did that and is happy but somehow I find it too risky!
That could work but you need to spend some time abroad and understand the differences in culture and the expectations. Good luck there.
Heraclitusstudent
2014 Jul 10, 7:22am
Inevitably, many people have children and regret doing so, some quite deeply. How often do you hear someone admit this?
I've heard many people complain about it, but seldom regret it.
There is a nice trick the brain does called rationalization that is there to save you.
Which is why usually people regret what they have not tried rather than what they have tried.
New Renter
2014 Jul 10, 7:25am
The purpose of life is to play your part in the chain of evolution. It includes surviving, and ensuring the survival of your offspring, based on the principal of survival of the fittest.
My sister has a child. My family's lineage has been preserved for the sake of posterity.
Now, that girl is a b*tch and her mom is hysterical. The dad, my brother-in-law, is best friends with a person named Jack Daniels.
Would I trade my current & future life, for his? Hell no!
You can't really model your kids outcome on your niece. As you say your sister is a hysterical monster/entitlement queen. You are not your sister. Your spouse would likely be quite different from her spouse as well. I have nieces too who are spoiled drama queens but underneath that they are very good kids. I am confident they will grow into good responsible adults.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 7:27am
Your spouse would likely be quite different from her spouse as well.
Read the bit above on Alanis Morrisette.
Heraclitusstudent
2014 Jul 10, 7:28am
Oh ... so now you're advocating celibacy or some 'meaningful' relationship?
I'm not advocating anything. I answered Dan's point that this is not about your own "pleasure and self-satisfaction".
If this is what you want to go for, no need to be ashamed of it.
New Renter
2014 Jul 10, 7:32am
Your spouse would likely be quite different from her spouse as well.
Read the bit above on Alanis Morrisette.
There are plenty more fish in the sea.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 7:33am
I'm not advocating anything. I answered Dan's point that this is not about your own "pleasure and self-satisfaction".
If this is what you want to go for, no need to be ashamed of it.
Actually, you are.
What it is is this middle class lifestyle ... work & then, raise a family with spouse. One trip to DisneyWorld per year. Story over.
Vs independently wealthy ... work (which now means writing, research, martial arts, teaching, etc) and then, rest & recreation (diving, seeing strippers, etc).
The middle classer above is orthogonal to the Renaissance man below because it's not the stripper per se, but the fact that he has control over his time and resources. And thus, even the stripper piece is de-empathized.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 7:37am
Your spouse would likely be quite different from her spouse as well.
Read the bit above on Alanis Morrisette.
There are plenty more fish in the sea.
Like I said, I've got too much on the plate of things to do, to bother with this, as a priority in my life. I'd realized, a few years ago that it really wasn't all that important, relative to being a free person, who can do what he wants with his life without the Congressional oversight of the misses.
turtledove
2014 Jul 10, 7:45am
Rin, is it possible that the reason you feel the need to flesh out your feelings on the matter of having children is because you, yourself, are feeling conflicted about it? I have no doubt that people respond with shock that you don't want children. But if you truly, beyond any shadow of a doubt, don't want children, you realize you own your choices and aren't required to explain anything to anyone? You shouldn't have to talk yourself into definite feelings about having or not having children. And also realize that it's okay even to change your mind. You don't have to have all your life's choices laid out like an irrevocable contract.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 7:48am
I have no doubt that people respond with shock that you don't want children. But if you truly, beyond any shadow of a doubt, don't want children, you realize you own your choices and aren't required to explain anything to anyone?
I've come here because my current job, being in sales for a hedge fund, is slowly driving me insane.
Thus, it's a good way of getting therapy for my real problem and that's that I'm some *Bobcat of Wall St*, which isn't my real nature.
I promise that when this job is over, I'll only come here and boast about how great my life is.
Interesting topic that really doesn't have a right or wrong answer. I too decided not to have kids but I have friends who do and one of them who I never imagined in a million years had a kid a few years ago and he is a different person. Totally devoted loving family man. I can appreciate that. Its everyone's personal decision really.
As far as women, I can't help that some of you are too bitter. The reason is because some of the over-generalized comments about women- like the ones about US women- for starters isn't going to win you any dates. Second of all its just stupid to make that assumption. I too started dating fairly late. In fact I never had a GF all through high school of college. It wasn't until I was in my late 20's that I started dating and I dated A LOT of women. Some were good experiences, some were not. Ultimately people are very different from one another and if one person isn't an ideal match then try and try again because its just a matter of finding the 'right' person.
Being bitter is the best way to stay single. Look at every date and every person as a fresh opportunity. Looking back to past relationships and assuming that other people are like that too is pointless and counterproductive.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 7:58am
over-generalized comments about women- like the ones about US women- for starters isn't going to win you any dates. Second of all its just stupid to make that assumption. I too started dating fairly late. In fact I never had a GF all through high school of college. It wasn't until I was in my late 20's that I started dating and I dated A LOT of women.
I work for a hedge fund. I'm hounded by women, all of the time. I didn't realize that being a full time BS artist was so attractive. I also practice Martial Arts and stay in excellent shape.
And yes, since I'd crossed that age of innocence, 26-29, the good ones were already settled and what's left are the Alanis Morrisettes, aka damaged goods.
Being emotionally independent, I don't need 'em and at the same time, they find me so attractive (because I don't need 'em), that they ditch other *nice guys* to follow me around. This is almost akin to the "bad" boy syndrome except that I don't take advantage of women, only our clients' funds.
Heraclitusstudent
2014 Jul 10, 8:19am
What it is is this middle class lifestyle ... work & then, raise a family with spouse. One trip to DisneyWorld per year. Story over.
Vs independently wealthy ... work (which now means writing, research, martial arts, teaching, etc) and then, rest & recreation (diving, seeing strippers, etc).
Having kids is a middle class pattern? I was confused into thinking it's a pattern of life for the past few hundred million years.
The middle classer above is orthogonal to the Renaissance man below because it's not the stripper per se, but the fact that he has control over his time and resources.
This is not about an overdeveloped sense of control for every seconds. Control is what let's you choose what to do with this time and resources, including having kids. You cannot define control as avoiding anything that truly impacts your life. I'm pretty sure many renaissance men had kids.
Besides if you are rich, you can pay a couple of nannies to do a lot of the work, and leave you most of your time.
As far as money is concerned, what other good use of it is there? A bigger car? A larger TV? more luxurious vacations? There comes a point where almost everything you can do with money is meaningless.
Heraclitusstudent
2014 Jul 10, 8:21am
what's left are the Alanis Morrisettes, aka damaged goods.
You are looking for perfection and you won't find it.
Find one who is damaged in an interesting way.
Strategist
2014 Jul 10, 8:24am
Family is all that matters. Everything else is just noise.
This.
I used to not want to have kids, but last year I got married and we now have a 6 month old girl.
It's the best thing to ever happen to me. I absolutely love it.
Wonderful. The baby now starts playing, responding and owns daddy.
Welcome to slavery. It's awesome.
Rin
2014 Jul 10, 8:44am
Rin, do you know kids love ducks.
Nice try.
If you said that the kid wanted to be my research assistant, then you've got something.
Strategist
2014 Jul 10, 9:11am
Family is all that matters. Everything else is just noise.
This.
I used to not want to have kids, but last year I got married and we now have a 6 month old girl.
It's the best thing to ever happen to me. I absolutely love it.
Wonderful. The baby now starts playing, responding and owns daddy.
Welcome to slavery. It's awesome.
Have you all noticed, even though we only see black and white words here, we can still sense the emotions behind the words?
What I sense from CrazyMan is delight, love and surprise.
I bet he comes home as soon as he can from work just to play with the baby. And when they go shopping, the first place is the baby section. And when he is with friends, baby is all he can talk about.
he he he. Been there done that.
Strategist
2014 Jul 10, 9:21am
Family is all that matters. Everything else is just noise.
This.
I used to not want to have kids, but last year I got married and we now have a 6 month old girl.
It's the best thing to ever happen to me. I absolutely love it.
Wonderful. The baby now starts playing, responding and owns daddy.
Welcome to slavery. It's awesome.
Ha Ha...the baby is 6 months old, he only has 17-1/2 years to go...
Let's see what he says when she becomes a teenager and the hormones kick in!!
He he he :)
Eman
2014 Jul 10, 9:24am
Family is all that matters. Everything else is just noise.
This.
I used to not want to have kids, but last year I got married and we now have a 6 month old girl.
It's the best thing to ever happen to me. I absolutely love it.
Rin,
To echo what Crazyman said, you don't know what you don't know. InhVe been married for almost 13 years. We have a 4.5 year old daughter. I would trade all of my wealth for her. Your kids have 1/2 of your DNA. The way they talk, behave, their personality, etc. remind you of your own self. It makes you appreciate your parents. But then again, you will not know what I'm talking about until you have experienced it.
Peter P
2014 Jul 10, 9:33am
My friend, what took you so long to decide? :-)
Kids is a terrible investment, in ANY interest-rate environment.
Unless they are goat kids. At least you can make cheese.
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Ok, it's been said before but I'll say it again.
I see myself as a creative and intelligent person who, if born rich, would be a Renaissance man doing my own research, engaging in numerous activities.
Thus, my goal in life is to become independently wealthy and do the above.
Now, since many of my pals have had children and so forth, I'm absolutely astonished at how lame and boring these kids are. At best, they parrot TV shows and break toys, to the best of their abilities. In contrast, when I was a kid, I was dreaming of writing screenplays, inventing a lightsaber, and so forth.
Yes, my parents squashed my dreams and made me think of engineering, accounting, and so on but at least when I got started, I had bigger dreams.
But now, I've come to accept these facts. Yes, for the most part, children are lame and at best, one can hope that they don't get in trouble with the law or sleep in your basement for life. Those parents, whose kids are the next Alexander Hamilton or Buckminster Fuller, are the fortunate ones.
With that said, I have no incentive nor motivation to have my own. When I'm an old man, I'll be like Frank Lloyd Wright, constantly writing down ideas and working on things of interest without having a lifelong kid/adult sleeping near my study spaces.