patrick.net

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

My measurement - When they can no longer influence social, economic and political thinking.

1. That's not a measurement. The term influence is vague.

2. By that standard, the War on Terror can never be won because there is always the possibility that someone with religious views may influence social, economic, and/or political thinking.

3. Since when is influencing thinking terrorism? It's an evil criteria to have that your political, economic, or social rivals might add to a discussion. Hell, by that standard even talking about anything makes one a terrorist.

Your question was just as vague.

Dan8267 says

And what's the measurement of "defeating the extremists"? Since when does the War on Terror have an exit strategy or a winning condition?

Terrorism is like crime...it never completely disappears, but good to keep their numbers down.
We are in the 21st century with people who still think it's the 10th century. We have no choice but to keep those barbarians under control. I still don't understand why we can't make the Saudis and others send their boots to trouble areas. It's their fucking problem, they need to play a bigger role.

Dan8267 says

Never ask me for more evidence unless you really want it. I don't bluff. By the way, what exactly is the statue of limitations on the murder of children?

The Taliban is responsible for all deaths.

lostand confused says

You really need to get over "it's all our fault" syndrome.

You need to get over over your simple minded vision of the world. The world does not work that way. They can be savage barbarians and we may have been responsible for their creation.

it is no different than taking a hungry lion froma zoo and turning it free on the streets. Did we do it-yes. But is the lion a savage beast that kills-yes. Two different things.

Not accepting our role, when we had such a hand will doom us to repeat the same over and over.

Why do you think they will leave us alone if we leave them alone?
The Yazidis left them alone and look what happened to them. The Russians, Chinese, Indians, Phillipines all have never ending problems with these barbarians. Is it all our fault? These people will never leave anyone alone because their Allah demands they leave no one alone. They will never heed your rational voice, and go against their Allah. Never Ever.

Strategist says

Why do you think they will leave us alone if we leave them alone?
The Yazidis
left them alone and look what happened to them. The Russians, Chinese, Indians,
Phillipines all have never ending problems with these barbarians. Is it all our
fault? These people will never leave anyone alone because their Allah demands
they leave no one alone. They will never heed your rational voice, and go
against their Allah. Never Ever

Who said anything about leaving them alone? I said did we allow them to happen? We supported the Taliban and helped them become powerful. What I would like to know is did we do the same to ISIS? Did we aid them??

What I am saying is, if we pick a side, perhaps enough analysis should be done to make sure they are not deranged madmen-before we throw our weight behind them??

socal2 says

thunderlips11 says

Taliban, FUCK YEAH! Fighting the evil Soviets, these noble savages!

You do realize that there are several different Afghan tribes and alliances and they are not all "taliban"- right? Or do you think they are all the same "rag-heads" and can't tell them apart?

One of America's main Afghan allies from the 1980's in the Northern Alliance (Massoud) who was both anti-Commie and anti-Talban was killed by Al Qaeda 2 days before the 9/11 attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Shah_Massoud

Yep, that's right. The CIA discussed Afghan factionalism in the 80s - and concluded the best bet was to direct most of the aid towards the "Afghan Arabs" via the ISI conveniently over the border in the NW Frontier Province of Pakistan, where the training camps were.

This is from MSNBC 1998:

As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar – the MAK – which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.

What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.

***

The CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan … found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to “read” than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the “reliable” partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.

***

To this day, those involved in the decision to give the Afghan rebels access to a fortune in covert funding and top-level combat weaponry continue to defend that move in the context of the Cold War. Sen. Orrin Hatch, a senior Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee making those decisions, told my colleague Robert Windrem that he would make the same call again today even knowing what bin Laden would do subsequently. “It was worth it,” he said.

“Those were very important, pivotal matters that played an important role in the downfall of the Soviet Union,” he said.

ZBig and Bin "Tim Osman" Laden meet, 1979:

http://www.d4lf0RT72iw

ZBig Said:

We know of their deep belief in God, and we are confident their struggle will succeed. That land over there is yours, you’ll go back to it one day because your fight will prevail, and you’ll have your homes and your mosques back again. Because your cause is right and God is on your side.

Front row, from left: Major Gen. Hamid Gul, director general of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), Director of Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Willian Webster; Deputy Director for Operations Clair George; an ISI colonel; and senior CIA official, Milt Bearden at a Mujahideen training camp in North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan in 1987.

Dan8267 says

Rambo fought the police.

Yeah, they gave him Freedom Tickles at the police station with a hose.

lostand confused says

Strategist says

Why do you think they will leave us alone if we leave them alone?
The Yazidis

left them alone and look what happened to them. The Russians, Chinese, Indians,

Phillipines all have never ending problems with these barbarians. Is it all our

fault? These people will never leave anyone alone because their Allah demands

they leave no one alone. They will never heed your rational voice, and go

against their Allah. Never Ever

Who said anything about leaving them alone? I said did we allow them to happen? We supported the Taliban and helped them become powerful. What I would like to know is did we do the same to ISIS? Did we aid them??

What I am saying is, if we pick a side, perhaps enough analysis should be done to make sure they are not deranged madmen-before we throw our weight behind them??

No, we did not allow them to happen. They were already there, some dormant, others active.
We need to make sure they remain dormant until we can educate them all, especially the girls.
We just do not have a long term viable strategy when dealing with them. I once more ask...Why can't we get the Saudis and others to do their own police work in the region. Why should it always be us? We are tired of these violent Islamists.
Bill the damn Saudis for the cost.

Strategist says

Bill the damn Saudis for the cost.

Absolutely.

The Saudis are wellspring of the extremists. Every action by Muslim Fundamentalists - in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Pakistan (against Indians), etc. receives enthusiastic support in Saudi Arabia.

15 of 19 Hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi. The "20th Hijacker" was also Saudi. That's 75%. Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of extremist Wahabi teaching, indeed the founder of the Sect was a Najd Province Preacher.

95% of Saudi Men 25-41 approved of 9/11 in October 2011
Source: Infowars World Socialist Website Haaretz
New York Times

A classified American intelligence report taken from a Saudi intelligence survey in mid-October of educated Saudis between the ages of 25 and 41 concluded that 95 percent of them supported Mr. bin Laden's cause, according to a senior administration official with access to intelligence reports.

Furthermore:

Prince Nawwaf confirmed the existence of the survey but did not specify the level of support. He attributed the support to what he called feelings of the people against the United States, largely, he said, because of its unflinching support of Israel against the Palestinians.

Although he insisted that Saudi Arabia had no intention of asking the United States to withdraw its military presence from the kingdom, which Mr. bin Laden has long demanded, the prince said Saudi Arabia would not support an American military campaign against Iraq or any other Arab or Muslim country.

Where did the Foreign Fighters in Iraq come from?

* Martyrs in Iraq mostly Saudi, concludes WaPo.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/14/AR2005051401270.html

* US Mess Hall Suicide Bomber in Mosul. Kills 22. Saudi.

The father refused to discuss the suicide bombing, but told the newspaper his son had gone to Iraq to fight the Americans and had died there. The family held a mourning ceremony the paper said. It did not say when the ceremony was held or where in Saudi Arabia the family lived.

* Israeli think tank PRISM estimates that 61% of Arab Fighters killed in Iraq 2004 were Saudi. Compares to less than 10% native Iraqi. For Suicide Bombers, it is also skewed towards Saudi Arabia.
http://www.e-prism.org/images/PRISM_no_1_vol_3_-_Arabs_killed_in_Iraq.pdf

* Iraqi Sunnis funded by Saudi Arabia. US Study Group also concludes big source of Sunni Terror funding is Saudi in Origin.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/07/AR2006120701070.html

* Both the Bush and Obama administrations have directed the US "Justice" Department to hamper the 9/11 Lawsuits against the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/senators-saudi-arabia-linked-911/story?id=15827925&page=2

The affidavits are part of a multibillion-dollar lawsuit that has been working its way through the federal courts since 2002. Though the U.S. Justice Department has joined the Saudis in trying to have lawsuits against the Saudis thrown out of court, an appellate court said late last year that foreign nations were not immune to lawsuits under some terrorism claims, meaning parts of the Saudi case may be reheard.

Lawyers for the Saudis have moved to have the affidavits disallowed. They did not immediately respond to a request for comment from ABC News. The Saudi embassy also did not immediately respond to a request for comment. The Saudis have always denied any connection to the 9/11 attacks. Fifteen of the 19 hijackers who crashed planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and Shanksville, Pennsylvania were Saudi.

According to Sen. Graham, open questions include possible financial support of al Qaeda by Saudi charities, and the role of a Saudi resident of California who was in contact with both the hijackers and Saudi officials. "There was a direct line," wrote Graham, "between at least some of the terrorists who carried out the September 11th attacks and the government of Saudi Arabia, and [a] Saudi government agent living in the United States, Omar al Bayoumi, provided direct assistance to September 11th hijackers Nawaf al Hazmi and Khalid al Mihdhar."

Dan8267 says

Again - the UN says the Taliban is responsible for 75% of all civilian deaths while NATO is only responsible for 16% of the civilian deaths.

And that makes targeting civilians right in your mind?

Who said they are purposefully targeting civilians?

The vast majority of those victims are collateral damage. Still tragic for the victims and their families, but a totally different thing than the Taliban PURPOSEFULLY bombing a crowd of girls trying to get into school. Or sawing off the head of an innocent journalist like they did yesterday. The Taliban and ISIS and Hamas are purposefully targeting civilians.

Are you really incapable of making this moral and legal distinction?

Geesh.

thunderlips11 says

The Saudis are wellspring of the extremists. Every action by Muslim Fundamentalists - in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Pakistan (against Indians), etc. receives enthusiastic support in Saudi Arabia.

I think the rot has gone far past Saudi Arabia or their funding.

The ring leader of the 9/11 attacks (Atta) got radicalized in a mosque in Germany like many Al Qaeda/ISIS leaders.

Apparently twice as many British Muslims have joined ISIS than serve in the British Army.
http://www.newsweek.com/twice-many-british-muslims-fighting-isis-armed-forces-265865

If Saudi Arabia were to disappear tomorrow, there will still be a massive problem with radical Islam facing the next generation or two. It's one thing if primitive 3rd world Arabs are joining ISIS or Al Qaeda because they are eating dirt and have no prospects. But when we have educated and rich Muslims from Western countries leaving prosperity and security to go cut off heads of non Sunni-Muslims and live like cavemen, I think that level of crazy goes way beyond Western comprehension.

Therefore many normally smart people in the West seem to concoct conspiracy theories of find ways to blame it all on America or Russia or the Jooos. It's easier to comprehend I suppose.

Just amazing that we are 13 years after 9/11 with ISIS proudly cutting off people's heads and committing genocide - and the PC mainstream culture, media and academia are still afraid to call out and criticize the dysfunction in radical Islam.

Instead - we try to make it all about us.

Radical Islam has too much damn oil money. If we would drill and produce our own, and get used to ten dollar per gallon gas (just to start with), we could ignore these simple, predictable human stains.

in the meantime, I don't want heads in retaliation. I think it's time we took their nuts instead. How difficult is it to sterilize the population of several thousand square miles?

It is inevitable that at some point the world war 3 will consist of muslims vs everyone else. It will pay dividends to establish and further solidify alliances in latin american and europe for this eventual battle. We need to ensure that islam will end up in the dustbin of history.

socal2 says

The ring leader of the 9/11 attacks (Atta) got radicalized in a mosque in Germany like many Al Qaeda/ISIS leaders.

Yes, but that Mosque was probably funded via Saudi Arabia or another Gulf State.

I agree with pretty much everything in your post.

What this really is about is a war for Islamic Purity, and more specifically, anti-Shi'a and other forms of Sherk (Backsliding from Islam). If it was about hating the West, we'd be experiencing weekly terror attacks inside Europe and the USA.

Or options are Roman Style Population Purge (see Judea circa 70AD or Dacia, I forget which year, but the Dacian treatement is why we call the place Romania today), Nuke from Orbit - only way to be sure, or forget the whole thing. The "Send an Occasional Drone" isn't working and may actually make it worse.

I vote for forget the whole thing.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Never ask me for more evidence unless you really want it. I don't bluff. By the way, what exactly is the statue of limitations on the murder of children?

The Taliban is responsible for all deaths.

Bullshit. America is responsible when it's drones kills non-combatant children.

socal2 says

Who said they are purposefully targeting civilians?

The articles presented quoted the polices. See the articles.

thunderlips11 says

The "Send an Occasional Drone" isn't working and may actually make it worse.

Yes I think this is something TPTB are not getting. Remember the deck of cards?

http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/iraqi55/

Once we worked our way through that "deck of cards" were we done? No, every "key" terrorist was replaced by someone else. I'd argue we are practicing natural selection and the current ones are smarter and more dangerous.

Vicente says

Once we worked our way through that "deck of cards" were we done? No, every "key" terrorist was replaced by someone else. I'd argue we are practicing natural selection and the current ones are smarter and more dangerous.

Kind reminds me of the War on Drugs, at least in it's 80s avatar. "If we get Mr. Big... we'll take most of the drugs off the streets."

We could call this approach the "Miami Vice Tactic."

Vicente says

Once we worked our way through that "deck of cards" were we done? No, every "key" terrorist was replaced by someone else.

Yep, the key to solving this problem is advancing women's rights and education and economic opportunities in the Middle East. Do that and this shit will stop and the people will become less religious, which is 99% of the problem.

Dan8267 says

Vicente says

Once we worked our way through that "deck of cards" were we done? No, every "key" terrorist was replaced by someone else.

Yep, the key to solving this problem is advancing women's rights and education and economic opportunities in the Middle East. Do that and this shit will stop and the people will become less religious, which is 99% of the problem.

That is easier said than done. soviets tried to do this in afghanistan in the 80s and lets just say that there was a lot of "resistance." The cave dwellers don't want the locals educated as that reduces the power of their satan god. Plus they don't want their women liberated. They also tend to think across centuries while we think in terms of fiscal quarters hence they keep bringing up crusades. The only solution is to keep grinding them down but that requires tons of patience, resources and unfortunately human lives.

dublin hillz says

It is inevitable that at some point the world war 3 will consist of muslims vs everyone else. It will pay dividends to establish and further solidify alliances in latin american and europe for this eventual battle. We need to ensure that islam will end up in the dustbin of history.

As long as they don't get united and keep fighting among themselves. Liek when Sadaam was there. he was Iran's mortal enemy-now we took him out and gave iraq to Iran. But now ISIS is rising-perhaps with our backing-but lets see. We are bungling idjits. if we fought WW2 with this mentality-we would ahve defnitely lost.

Dan8267 says

socal2 says

Who said they are purposefully targeting civilians?

The articles presented quoted the polices. See the articles.

We don't target civilians. Please dial 911 for help.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Never ask me for more evidence unless you really want it. I don't bluff. By the way, what exactly is the statue of limitations on the murder of children?

The Taliban is responsible for all deaths.

Bullshit. America is responsible when it's drones kills non-combatant children.

We don't target children. We are not responsible. Only the Taliban is responsible for any and all civilian deaths.

Strategist says

We don't target civilians. Please dial 911 for help.

And the Nazis said they didn't target Jews. Repeating something doesn't make it true. I have already presented plenty of evidence showing that the government has targeted children and schools. Evidence trumps sound bites.

dublin hillz says

That is easier said than done.

All hard problems are easier said than done. That doesn't mean we shouldn't put forth the effort. All low hanging fruit has already been picked. Today, anything worth doing is hard. Get use to it.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

We don't target civilians. Please dial 911 for help.

And the Nazis said they didn't target Jews. Repeating something doesn't make it true. I have already presented plenty of evidence showing that the government has targeted children and schools. Evidence trumps sound bites.

I repeat. We do not target civilians. There is no evidence. We have no need to, it does not help us, and we can't afford to target civilians. There are lots of Islamists for us to target, why would we go after women and children?
What you are saying is....we spend tens of billions in drones, go half way across the world, risk the lives of our soldiers, just to target children. Really?

LOL...you are preaching to the wrong crowd....

Dan8267 says

Yep, the key to solving this problem is advancing women's rights and education

We need to develop long range holographic projection technology.
We could deliver a god in every hut, instructing the occupiers to Off their leaders.
These people want a god to tell them what to do, it's about time we deliver.

dublin hillz says

The cave dwellers don't want the locals educated as that reduces the power of their satan god. Plus they don't want their women liberated.

Strategist says

I repeat.

That's the problem. You repeat lies expecting them to become the truth. Reality doesn't work that way.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

I repeat.

That's the problem. You repeat lies expecting them to become the truth. Reality doesn't work that way.

Come on Dan, you know there is no rational reason for our government to target foreign babies. That makes you irrational.

I say we give all that (Syria, Iraq, possibly others) back to Turkey.