patrick.net

John Bailo says

using the most abundant element in the universe as an alternative to nuclear power and fossil fuels

Where are they planning on getting it? The sun? Jupiter?

Oh, right: by extracting it from fossil-fuel sources, or from other electrical sources through water splitting. (Nevermind that batteries would store the same energy more cleanly and efficiently - the Japanese couldn't do that, because it would be un-American.

The systems also require additional equipment including battery storage units costing more than 600,000 yen for the systems to work in a blackout.

Ruh-roh! Me not understand! Sum Ting Wong!

This makes it sound like the in-home cells are dependent on a grid. Surely that can't be the case, as hydrogen is free and all around us!

Calm down HC. These are distributed co-gen systems. Basically, heat your water and produced electricity as a side benefit. That said, it's not an alternative to fossil fuels (unless you use biomethane). This is an efficiency play

EBGuy says

These are distributed co-gen systems. Basically, heat your water and produced electricity as a side benefit.

I'm still not seeing the efficiency here, if they're 70% less efficient than batteries at storing electricity.

But maybe that's just me.

HydroCabron says

Where are they planning on getting it? The sun?

HyperSolar Achieves Major Breakthrough in Splitting Water Into Renewable Hydrogen Fuel

The Company Exceeds the 1.23 Volts Threshold Required for Artificial Photosynthesis to Split Water Into Hydrogen and Oxygen Using Only the Power of the Sun

http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/hypersolar-achieves-major-breakthrough-splitting-water-into-renewable-hydrogen-fuel-otcqb-hysr-1975101.htm

HydroCabron says

than batteries

Battery Degradation and Power Loss

A battery over time degrades and eventually stops working, this is no surprise, but why this occurs is really a fascinating yet technical process. These reasons are complex issues that are way beyond user control and are wholly contained within your battery and within your device! As we will see these issues (declining capacity, increasing internal resistance, elevated self-discharge, and premature voltage cut-off on discharge) do more to cause Battery Degradation and Power Loss than your typical portable device owner could ever do.

http://www.batteryeducation.com/2006/04/battery_degrada.html

HC said: I'm still not seeing the efficiency here, if they're 70% less efficient than batteries at storing electricity.
Nobody's storing hydrogen. According to Panasonic "primary energy consumption [is reduced] by approximately 37%". Hydrogen is reformed from natural gas at the fuel cell. Water is heated by the fuel cell and you get electricity as a byproduct. Can your hot water heater do that?
Some large server farms use fuel cells as a primary energy source. The electric grid is used a "backup battery" if the fuel cell goes down.

EBGuy says

Hydrogen is reformed from natural gas at the fuel cell. Water is heated by the fuel cell and you get electricity as a byproduct. Can your hot water heater do that?

Aha: Now I get it!

Thanks.

John Bailo says

HyperSolar Achieves Major Breakthrough in Splitting Water Into Renewable Hydrogen Fuel

The Company Exceeds the 1.23 Volts Threshold Required for Artificial Photosynthesis to Split Water Into Hydrogen and Oxygen Using Only the Power of the Sun

Physical laws - chemistry/physics-book stuff - say there's a brick wall beyond which you cannot go: the energy required to split water. It's a physical constant. Claiming that you can go lower and lower in the energy threshold is akin to claiming that you can lift your 20 kg contrabassoon 1 meter into the air using less than 20*9.8*1 = 196 Nm. Not gonna happen.

The arguments about batteries vs. splitting water assume the energies required to break chemical bonds. You aren't going to get past those thresholds.

John Bailo says

A battery over time degrades and eventually stops working, this is no surprise, but why this occurs is really a fascinating yet technical process. These reasons are complex issues that are way beyond user control and are wholly contained within your battery and within your device! As we will see these issues (declining capacity, increasing internal resistance, elevated self-discharge, and premature voltage cut-off on discharge) do more to cause Battery Degradation and Power Loss than your typical portable device owner could ever do.

Uh-huh.

And, even assuming degradation and loss of efficiency, batteries still kick the living daylights out of fuel cells. The numbers which show this fact assume battery degradation.

But this article, as I finally figured out thanks to EBGuy, is about burning freakin' natural gas anyway, and not storage.

EBGuy says

HC said: I'm still not seeing the efficiency here, if they're 70% less efficient than batteries at storing electricity.

Nobody's storing hydrogen. According to Panasonic "primary energy consumption [is reduced] by approximately 37%". Hydrogen is reformed from natural gas at the fuel cell. Water is heated by the fuel cell and you get electricity as a byproduct. Can your hot water heater do that?

Some large server farms use fuel cells as a primary energy source. The electric grid is used a "backup battery" if the fuel cell goes down.

I'm missing something here. It's more efficient to manufacture thousands (then millions) of expensive fuel cells to turn natural gas into into hydrogen into electricity and heat than to just burn natural gas at a large generating station and send the electricity through the existing grid? That doesn't add up.