patrick.net

CIA is ran by assholes, no better than the terrorists they tortured.

Think about it folks, we have secret prisons that can imprison anyone with no trial, no rights, and torture that person.

As far as they told us, it's only terrorists, what frightens me is when they'll start jailing average Americans without telling us. That's where Assange and Snowden would have ended up, and just about anyone who were significant enough.

Strategist says

Most will be found innocent because our justice system is fucked up. The lawyers would be the only ones to benefit. Let the CIA and the military decide terrorism cases. Our justice system could not even find OJ guilty. Lets not worry about these terrorists who want to hurt us. Lets worry about us for a change.

You truly don't deserve american citizenship. There are plenty of countries that have intelligence and the military run the justice system. Move to one and stop dishonouring all the people who fought for what america really stands throughout our history.

Bigsby says

These comparisons to the Nazis are just ridiculous.

Torturing people to death is the worst thing a person can possibly do. The comparison is apt. Both the Nazis and the CIA have no respect for human life and take a sadistic pleasure in torturing others. Same evil.

thunderlips11 says

Many of them literally did.

Yes, the U.S. took many Nazis to fight the Cold War. More importantly, they took the Nazi philosophy of the end justifies the means and the enemy is subhuman.

Bigsby says

it belittles what the Nazis actually did to throw around such stupid comparisons.

You do realize that the Nazis are most well known for genocide, something that the United States has committed dozens of times.

Strategist says

The CIA does not torture terrorists for pleasure you nitwits. They torture these assholes to extract critical information that can save innocent lives.

And the Nazis tortured the Jews to protect the Aryan race. Same difference. The bad guys will always justify their actions.

Oh, and by the way, torture has made us LESS safe. It's dumb ass policies like that and the illegal wars that lead to the rise of ISIS. We'd be a lot safer if Al Gore, who won the election, had become president instead of that idiot Bush.

Strategist says

So sometimes we will save innocent lives, and sometimes we will not.

It's still worth it

And when the children and grandchildren of those tortured return the favor by bombing and killing Americans, you will have cost more lives than you allegedly had saved. There are consequences to actions. Imagine what YOU would do if your children were tortured in the name of protecting Iran. Then realize that other people would do the same when their families are tortured by our country.

Just remember, countries who do not live by International law and the Geneva Convention are not protected by those things either. Anyone who supports torturing our enemies tacitly supports letting our enemies torture OUR soldiers when they are captured. It's tit for tat. The only way to protect our soldiers from atrocities is to not commit those atrocities ourselves.

No nation will hold back torturing captured soldiers from a nation that routinely tortures its captives. If we waterboard prisoners, our soldiers will be waterboarded as well. So those who advocate torture do not support our troops; they endanger our troops.

Dan8267 says

These comparisons to the Nazis are just ridiculous.

Torturing people to death is the worst thing a person can possibly do. The comparison is apt. Both the Nazis and the CIA have no respect for human life and take a sadistic pleasure in torturing others. Same evil.

The comparison isn't apt. The Nazis systematically murdered millions of innocents.

What the CIA did was abhorrent. It doesn't require some bullshit comparison to the Nazis. You can make your point without resorting to such histrionics.

Dan8267 says

Bigsby says

it belittles what the Nazis actually did to throw around such stupid comparisons.

You do realize that the Nazis are most well known for genocide, something that the United States has committed dozens of times.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. And dozens of times? Perhaps you'd care to expand upon what you consider genocide.

Bigsby says

The comparison isn't apt. The Nazis systematically murdered millions of innocents.

The United States murdered millions of innocent Native Americans, or did you forget about that? Our history is as bad as the Nazis.

So, for the CIA to take on philosophy the Nazi's embraced that certain people are subhuman and thus can be tortured without remorse makes the comparison valid. They are of the same nature as the Nazis.

Bigsby says

And dozens of times?

Yes, dozens of times. Millions of Native Americans across dozens of nations. To lump all Native Americans as one people makes as much sense as lumping all Europeans of 200 years ago as one people. So yes, dozens.

Dan8267 says

Bigsby says

And dozens of times?

Yes, dozens of times. Millions of Native Americans across dozens of nations. To lump all Native Americans as one people makes as much sense as lumping all Europeans of 200 years ago as one people. So yes, dozens.

Very convenient. And absolutely nothing to do with what the CIA did.

Dan8267 says

The United States murdered millions of innocent Native Americans, or did you forget about that? Our history is as bad as the Nazis.

No, I didn't forget about that. What has that got to do with your comparison of the CIA and Nazis? And I think a great many people would disagree with your assertion that your history is as bad as the Nazis.

Bigsby says

Very convenient. And absolutely nothing to do with what the CIA did.

Genocide is practice as the result of classifying people as subhuman. That you don't see the connection is a flaw in your vision.

Dan8267 says

Bigsby says

Very convenient. And absolutely nothing to do with what the CIA did.

Genocide is practice as the result of classifying people as subhuman. That you don't see the connection is a flaw in your vision.

No, it's a flaw in your stupidly broad brush stroke of a comparison.

Bigsby says

No, it's a flaw in your stupidly broad brush stroke of a comparison.

I don't intent to convince you. That would be impossible, and quite frankly I don't give a damn what you think.

But I will state for the record that any decent person who reads this article on the CIA torture would conclude that everyone involved should face Nuremberg-style trials, and that is the only way America will ever be able to wipe its hands clean of these atrocities.

From Friedman's article:
I greatly respect how Senator John McCain put it: “I understand the reasons that governed the decision to resort to these interrogation methods, and I know that those who approved them and those who used them were dedicated to securing justice for the victims of terrorist attacks and to protecting Americans from further harm. ... But I dispute wholeheartedly that it was right for them to use these methods, which this report makes clear were neither in the best interests of justice nor our security nor the ideals we have sacrificed so much blood and treasure to defend.” Even in the worst of times, “we are always Americans, and different, stronger, and better than those who would destroy us.”

Dan8267 says

But I will state for the record that any decent person who reads this article on the CIA torture would conclude that everyone involved should face Nuremberg-style trials, and that is the only way America will ever be able to wipe its hands clean of these atrocities.

Fine. Prosecute them, but don't peddle stupid lines about genocide and Nazism. Deal with the behaviour of a presumably relatively small group of people and the institution that allowed it/down played it/covered it up.

FortWayne says

CIA is ran by assholes, no better than the terrorists they tortured.

This is a gift of the Nazis, and I'm not exaggerating to make a point.

The CIA used torture in Vietnam, and all over South America. As did the graduates of the "School of the Americas" which didn't exist to teach Latin Americans the finer points of Spanish Grammar.

Where did the sudden interest in torture come from? Gehlen and others. All the escaped Nazi rats who fled to the Allies to avoid real justice at the hands of the enraged Russians. All the intel Nazis were snapped up by the OSS, later CIA.

Dan8267 says

Torturing people to death is the worst thing a person can possibly do. The comparison is apt. Both the Nazis and the CIA have no respect for human life and take a sadistic pleasure in torturing others. Same evil.

There are many stories about CIA led teams in South America. In several incidences priests and nuns were tortured, and at least one distinctly remembers hearing the voice of "Alejandro" who spoke American-accented Spanish and English. "Alejandro" said the police made a mistake by kidnapping her, but not by torturing here. He was apparently smart enough to realize that she was the wrong person to torture, not that it was wrong to torture a person.

It already came out from Guatemalan Archives that not only was the CIA there, but that they exceeded their boundaries of actions and financing.

Sister Dianna of the Ursuline Order:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianna_Ortiz

Can we send the CIA over to the NAR Headquarters?

Two other quick points:

Mubarak, Assad, and others helped the CIA torture. The CIA sent them there with 100% full knowledge of what would happen.

Also, numerous cases of "mistaken identity", including people who froze to death. Turns out they got the wrong guys in many circumstances.

CIA Agents also got "Cash" rewards, including ones that sent the innocents by mistake.

But make no mistake: there’s still an extraordinary amount to take away from this report. If there is one tragic story, out of the many, that is emblematic of the CIA program, as its supporters defend it in the days, it’s that of Gul Ruhman. It may be two stories – it’s hard to know, so much has been redacted and the atrocities are so countless – but at least one Gul Ruhman we know was tortured at the notorious CIA black site known as the Salt Pit, chained to the floor and frozen to death. The CIA’s inspector general referred this person’s case to CIA leadership for discipline, but was overruled. Four months after the incident, the officer who gave the order that led to Rahman’s death was recommended for a $2,500 “cash reward” for his “consistently superior work”.

Footnote 32 explains why a dead prisoner ended up in CIA custody in the first place: “Gul Ruhman, another case of mistaken identity.”

Now, let's talk about Pussy Riot getting a few months in jail for causing a ruckus in a Church, real evil.

Perhaps they should have locked these folks in a cell with Martha Raddatz. I'd cop to anything under those circumstances.

thunderlips11 says

The CIA used torture in Vietnam, and all over South America. As did the graduates of the "School of the Americas" which didn't exist to teach Latin Americans the finer points of Spanish Grammar.

No one does Mad Dog better than the USA. The New World presented a huge opportunity for those with the killer gene to express their genetic endowment, as the Native Americans came to learn all too well. If you don't use it, you lose it, and so outlets for murder and savagery are necessary.

Strategist says

We can all agree ISIS is the mother of all terrorist organizations, right?

It's not.

ISIS is currently being wiped from the desert. They were never an existential threat to the United States, and never will be.

Abu Nidal was worse, but it's academic, because the Bolsheviks were worse, and the Mexican cartels are worse than all of them. I don't see the CIA torturing Mexican cartel members right now.

It's always "so-and-so is the worst - an unprecedented villain - and deserves no mercy" - and has been so for thousands of years. Whether it's the Judean People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea, or the Carthaginians, the struggle against the newest, most-awful ever enemy gives people the excuse to hack, torture, dismember, freeze, starve and castrate until they sink below the enemy they've demonized.

A good example is the aftermath of the Battle of Culloden in 1745. The English convinced themselves of the moral inferiority of the unprecedentedly vicious Jacobite supporters of Charles Stuart. How the English behaved after the victory has left a stain on the nation that persists - it is not regarded as an honorable victory. Hunting down the wounded for days is really not something to be proud of.

Be wary whenever you hear about the newest villain's rape rooms and beheading lust. Think about the motives of who is feeding you such stories, and the human tendency to exaggerate and conceive of the end times.

HydroCabron says

Be wary whenever you hear about the newest villain's rape rooms and beheading lust. Think about the motives of who is feeding you such stories, and the human tendency to exaggerate and conceive of the end times.

Bayonetted babies ripped from incubators! Hill & Knowlton.

Save the chilluns'! Pweeeeaaase!

"In fact, the most emotionally moving testimony on October 10 came from a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl, known only by her first name of Nayirah. According to the Caucus, Nayirah's full name was being kept confidential to prevent Iraqi reprisals against her family in occupied Kuwait. Sobbing, she described what she had seen with her own eyes in a hospital in Kuwait City. Her written testimony was passed out in a media kit prepared by Citizens for a Free Kuwait. "I volunteered at the al-Addan hospital," Nayirah said. "While I was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go into the room where ... babies were in incubators. They took the babies out of the incubators, took the incubators, and left the babies on the cold floor to die."

"At the Human Rights Caucus, however, Hill & Knowlton and Congressman Lantos had failed to reveal that Nayirah was a member of the Kuwaiti Royal Family. Her father, in fact, was Saud Nasir al-Sabah, Kuwait's Ambassador to the US, who sat listening in the hearing room during her testimony. The Caucus also failed to reveal that H&K vice-president Lauri Fitz-Pegado had coached Nayirah in what even the Kuwaitis' own investigators later confirmed was false testimony."

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

HydroCabron says

ISIS is currently being wiped from the desert.

I think you're underestimating the impact of Daesh on the region. And it is very far from being wiped from the desert.

HydroCabron says

Be wary whenever you hear about the newest villain's rape rooms and beheading lust. Think about the motives of who is feeding you such stories, and the human tendency to exaggerate and conceive of the end times.

They aren't squeamish about printing such stuff in the Middle East. It is happening. Obviously there is propaganda on both sides, but make no mistake about it, they are an extraordinarily brutal group.

Bigsby says

Fine. Prosecute them, but don't peddle stupid lines about genocide and Nazism.

Just because you don't see the point doesn't make it stupid. It's the exact same damn philosophy. Red-white-and-black or red-white-and-blue doesn't make a difference. What matters is what values we live by.

WWII wasn't a war against nations. It was a war against ideology. Yet the very ideology of the Nazis has been incorporated into our government and for the EXACT same reasons it was adopted by Germany in the 1930s.

Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

If you don't see the parallels between that and the past 14 years, then you are illustrating the principle that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Dan8267 says

Just because you don't see the point doesn't make it stupid. It's the exact same damn philosophy. Red-white-and-black or red-white-and-blue doesn't make a difference. What matters is what values we live by.

I do get the point. You are unnecessarily exaggerating for impact. And of course it matters what values we live by. That doesn't require you to start blathering on about genocide and nazism.

Bigsby says

I do get the point. You are unnecessarily exaggerating for impact. And of course it matters what values we live by. That doesn't require you to start blathering on about genocide and nazism.

a href="http://www.amazon.com/Juan-Ricardo-Cole/e/B001IOH4SI">Juan Cole author of various books regarding the Middle East and professor of history at the University of Michigan writes

So the US polished off about a million Iraqis from 1991 through 2011, large numbers of them children. The Iraqi population in that period was roughly 25 million, so the US killed or created the conditions for the killing of 4% of the Iraqi population.

If Iraq had killed 4% of Americans, it would be 12 million people dead.

Exactly how many people must die for it to be considered a genocide? I say a million qualifies.

And if your complaint is that the CIA isn't directly responsible, just consider the CIA to be America's equivalent of the SS. The point is that the CIA and our government in general have adopted the values and ideology of the Nazis.

Nazism rears its ugly head throughout history. It just goes by different names and waves different flags. But at the core is the same damn, evil ideology:
- everyone we don't kill is a threat to us
- the ends justify the means (we're saving people by torturing and killing others)
- some people deserve to be tortured and killed
- some people have no rights
- the state must take drastic measures to stop attacks
- the state cannot be burden by legal restrictions or liability for its actions for doing so will compromise the ability of the state to provide safety and security to its civilians

Sound familiar? The Nazi doctrine and the Bush/Obama doctrines are the same.

Dan8267 says

Sound familiar? The Nazi doctrine and the Bush/Obama doctrines are the same.

Yet another exaggeration.

Dan8267 says

Exactly how many people must die for it to be considered a genocide? I say a million qualifies.

Eh? Would you like to quote how genocide is defined in Article II? You can talk about how many people needlessly died in Iraq, but what the US engaged in wasn't genocide.

bob2356 says

stop dishonouring all the people who fought for what america really stands throughout our history.

I dunno Bob - did you ever serve? If so, thanks for your service. If so, were you in any conflicts? I served, I served in Vietnam and it sucked. But it was kill or be killed. Your enemy be it a soldier directly across from you or some terrorist looking, waiting to attack you (via a bomb) from 500 ft or 200 miles away - they only want one thing, for you to die. You can't reason with them. When you 'show mercy' they take it as weakness and wait for the chance to harm or preferably kill you.

I have a son-in-law who is finishing a deployment at Gitmo. He will tell you that the folks there only have our deaths on their minds. They will die, and die happily trying to kill you (and me) in any way possible.

1942 - It's Different this Time!

“A Jap’s a Jap. It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen or not. I don’t want any of them... Racial affiliations are not severed by migration. The Japanese race is an enemy race and while many second - and third-generation Japanese born on United States soil, possessed of United States citizenship, have become 'Americanized,' the racial strains are undiluted."

"It, therefore, follows that along the vital Pacific Coast over 112,000 potential enemies, of Japanese extraction, are at large today. There are indications that these were organized and ready for concerted action at a favorable opportunity. The very fact that no sabotage has taken place to date is a disturbing and confirming indication that such action will be taken"

-- General DeWitt (referred to by Gen. Joe Stillwell as a blockhead)

Dan8267 says

- some people deserve to be tortured and killed

HydroCabron says

Gen. Joe Stillwell

Good old Vinegar Joe.

His name for Chiang Kai Shek was "General Peanut" because:

He used to write lengthy reports about how WW2 US aid to the nationalists was sold to the Japanese, the tires on jeeps and trucks sold on the black market, how the Generals stole their own troop's food and equipment, down to the socks, for sale.

He was a guy who wanted to WIN, so he advocated giving more help to Lin Biao, which didn't go over well in DC. Got sacked due to pressure from "Green Gang" Daughter Madam Chang, who was the Connie Corleone of one of the Shanghai Triads.

BTW, one other WW2 Fact, Carlson's Raiders was inspired by the 8th Route Army, where he had spent the interwar period (also high opinion of Lin Biao but not Mao). "Gung Ho" = "Work Harmoniously". Very Communist.

Evil is evil, no matter what color, stripe, creed, flag, ideology, party, or country. Torture is inhumane and evil.