patrick.net

Peter P says

All forms of crowd madness can be dangerous. Tulipomania. Housing bubble. War.

Religion is a significant and common enough principle cause of evil, suffering, and death that its opposition in particular is merited. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. Religion is one of the primary mistakes repeated throughout history. It's worth learning to avoid that mistake, especially in an age where mankind could destroy itself from nuclear annihilation or global ecological collapse.

They are all about the same: people choosing to believe in something over other things and doing so in herd.

That said, what makes religion special is that it specifically manipulates one's sense of morality.

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Peter P 2015 Jan 28, 1:22pm

Speaking of religions...

Can't wait for Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt to come out:

http://www.Hl4bOuGNMwo

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Y 2015 Jan 28, 2:36pm

This example cherry-picks certain tenants of Christianity while ignoring others, resulting in a false conclusion.
If one is to believe the christian after-life is real, then one must also assume most of the important baggage that goes along with it is true.
Under Christianity, it's a mortal sin to commit suicide, you go straight to hell without passing GO and collecting 200...
This blows your example right out of the water....sorry!

For example, recently as 12-year-old girl killed herself so that she could be with her recently deceased father in heaven. If the Christian afterlife is real, then her decision makes sense and there is no tragedy. Her decision was wise and we should respect, if not out-right encourage, other children to make this same decision.

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Y 2015 Jan 28, 2:41pm

It's a grave tragedy either way.
If it's true she goes straight to hell for self-terminating, no paternal visits...

However, if the Christian after life is a lie, which we all know it is, than this is a grave tragedy and we should try to convince other children to not make this decision.

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Y 2015 Jan 28, 2:42pm

of course, if it's true, some of the tragedy would be mitigated if she were a barbecue enthusiast.

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Dan8267 2015 Jan 28, 2:58pm

Betting on an afterlife with one's life sounds like bad odds to me.

Feel free to show your math. The very term "odds" implies some kind of calculation.

Sounds more like a cop out. I really believe that the afterlife is bullshit, but I don't want to come right out and say that.

That said, what makes religion special is that it specifically manipulates one's sense of morality.

What you call special, I call evil. If one is on the side of good and truly believes in good, then one doesn't have to manipulate other people's sense of morality. The math, the science, the empirical evidence will all show that good makes for a happier and better world than evil. So good has nothing to gain from lies and deceit of any sort.

If one is to believe the christian after-life is real, then one must also assume most of the important baggage that goes along with it is true.

Under Christianity, it's a mortal sin to commit suicide, you go straight to hell without passing GO and collecting 200...

If one believes that than the inescapable conclusion is that the Christian god is motherfucking evil. The Christian Hell is an eternity of the worst kind of torture possible. Existence in hell is worse than being raped. So, god condemning a 12-year-old girl to hell is condemning the girl to be repeatedly raped (or worse) for all eternity. Even Adolph Hitler wasn't nearly that evil. God would be the worst kind of pedophile serial rapist if that were true.

In any case, your proposition is irrelevant. The 12-year-old girl did not believe she was going to hell; she believed she would go to heaven and see her dad. And she got this idea from her Christian religion. Therefore, Christianity has done her a terrible, terrible service.

But hey, there are plenty of other situations that demonstrate that you, personally, don't accept the Christian afterlife myth when push comes to shove. If a man breaks into your house and starts raping your family to death, according to Christianity, you should turn the other cheek. It is far better to die being raped than to commit an act of violence against your attacker and save your family. In fact, the attacker is doing your family a favor. They will be in paradise tonight.

If you truly believe the Christian fairytale, then you gladly allow your family to be raped to death. It's not a big deal, and they'll all be better off in heaven shortly. No reason to sacrifice your immortal soul by killing the attacker. Your family will want to see you in heaven with them, so you'd better wait your turn to get raped and killed.

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Peter P 2015 Jan 28, 3:09pm

Sounds more like a cop out. I really believe that the afterlife is bullshit, but I don't want to come right out and say that.

Well, I have fundamental respect for all religions. ;-)

What you call special, I call evil.

I no longer believe in good-versus-evil. That trope is as harmful as religion itself. Things are better or worse. And they are relative and subjective.

Feel free to show your math. The very term "odds" implies some kind of calculation.

A bet needs not involve numeric calculations. It can be quite intuitive. I know a sucker bet when I see one.

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Peter P 2015 Jan 28, 3:12pm

If one is on the side of good and truly believes in good, then one doesn't have to manipulate other people's sense of morality.

"Morality" is nothing but a narrative. Either you buy it or not. Life has much to do with getting your narrative accepted. There is no absolute.

Adopting a religion is buying into its narratives. This alone can be costly if one is not careful.

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Dan8267 2015 Jan 28, 3:25pm

Well, I have fundamental respect for all religions.

You shouldn't. Respect is something that applies to people, not things, and it's something that must be earned.

I no longer believe in good-versus-evil. That trope is as harmful as religion itself.

Nazism is evil. Raping babies is evil. Drowning puppies in a river is evil.

Religion is not the same thing as a moral code. A moral code is not the same thing as an understanding of good and evil. One can discuss and understand good and evil without the supernatural, without any god, without any faith, and without any religion. Good and evil can, and have been, mathematically modeled.

Saying that distinguishing between moral right and wrong is meaningless is simply not true. We are not an amoral species. No social species on this planet is amoral.

I know a sucker bet when I see one.

You can only know something if you can prove it. Otherwise you only think you know it.

People often "know" things that are untrue. People even hold two contradicting beliefs at the same time and they are certain of both of them.

"Morality" is nothing but a narrative.

Not from my perspective. Morality is a design, not absolute, but also not arbitrary. It's grounded in the laws of mathematics and nature like the design of a bridge. There are many ways to design a bridge or a moral system, but some ways are a hell of a lot better than others. In most designs the bridge collapses under it's own weight. A good design ensures a functional and safe bridge. A good morality ensures a cooperative and happy society. These things can be objectively studied, measured, explained, and predicted. Morality is a science like anything else worth discussing.

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Y 2015 Jan 28, 3:27pm

If you buy that afterlife stuff is true, then you also must buy suicide is a mortal sin.
Whether she knew that part is irrelevant to my argument, which is your post below does not hold water.

You state that we should "out-right encourage, other children to make this same decision".

Yet we, unlike her, given the above assumptions, know that she is committing a mortal sin and will burn. So given that why would we 'out-right encourage' others to make the same mistake?

The other stuff about the god being worse than shit is irrelevant to my post.

SoftShell

says

Dan8267 says

For example, recently as 12-year-old girl killed herself so that she

could be with her recently deceased father in heaven. If the Christian afterlife is

real, then her decision makes sense and there is no tragedy. Her decision was wise

and we should respect, if not out-right encourage, other children to make this same

decision.

Dan8267

says

In any case, your proposition is irrelevant. The 12-year-old girl did not

believe she was going to hell; she believed she would go to heaven and see her dad.

And she got this idea from her Christian religion. Therefore, Christianity has done

her a terrible, terrible service.

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Y 2015 Jan 28, 3:28pm

you can stop right there. I don't need the push or shove...

But hey, there are plenty of other situations that demonstrate that you, personally, don't accept the Christian afterlife myth when push comes to shove.

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Dan8267 2015 Jan 28, 3:36pm

If you buy that afterlife stuff is true, then you also must buy suicide is a mortal sin.

Whether she knew that part is irrelevant to my argument

Actually, according to Christian mythology, one does have to know that something is a sin in order for it to be a sin. Criminal intent might not be important to our legal system, but it is important to the Christian religions. So, if the girl honestly thought that suicide wasn't a sin, then it wasn't according to Christian lore.

Never argue the lore of your religion with an atheist. He's an atheist because he's studied your religion in depth.

The other stuff about the god being worse than shit is irrelevant to my post.

It's quite relevant to the discussion of Christianity and how abysmal it is both practically and morally. And it fits in well with the original post's video.

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Strategist 2015 Jan 28, 3:43pm

Religion is not evil. Taking religion too seriously, or a general lack of humor, is.

Islam is evil.

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Y 2015 Jan 28, 3:44pm

so what is it called when an atheist argues the lore of a religion that he is projecting onto you, that you have no part of?

Oh wait, I know....Liberal Logic!

Never argue the lore of your religion with an atheist.

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Peter P 2015 Jan 28, 3:47pm

Speaking of evil, I have a sudden craving for deviled eggs.

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Strategist 2015 Jan 28, 3:53pm

Religion is a significant and common enough principle cause of evil, suffering, and death that its opposition in particular is merited. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. Religion is one of the primary mistakes repeated throughout history.

Glad you took your medication. You finally said something that makes sense.

It's worth learning to avoid that mistake, especially in an age where mankind could destroy itself from nuclear annihilation or global ecological collapse.

Look who's talking? The mistake some of of us have learnt is terrorists like the Iranian regime will use every weapon at their disposal. They must not be allowed to have nukes. But the moment we start taking them out, Dan will be the first to yell "foul" "It's murder." " We have no right to kill them without a trial." "Who made us policeman of the world" "They are innocent"
Why don't you practice your own crap for a change.

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Y 2015 Jan 28, 3:53pm

she was 12 years old, which is 6/7 grade.
children are taught suicide is a sin in 3-4-5 grades.
http://stjohnparish.org/re_bctsANDcatbowlq.php

The evidence shows she knew but chose to ignore that part, unless you have evidence she did not know....

Actually, according to Christian mythology, one does have to know that something is a sin in order for it to be a sin.

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Strategist 2015 Jan 28, 3:55pm

Dan8267 says

Sounds more like a cop out. I really believe that the afterlife is bullshit, but I don't want to come right out and say that.

Well, I have fundamental respect for all religions. ;-)

I only respect religions that practice peace. So should you.

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Strategist 2015 Jan 28, 3:59pm

she was 12 years old, which is 6/7 grade.

children are taught suicide is a sin in 3-4-5 grades.

http://stjohnparish.org/re_bctsANDcatbowlq.php

The evidence shows she knew but chose to ignore that part, unless you have evidence she did not know....

No matter what.....her religious beliefs were the prime cause of her wanting to join her father.

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Peter P 2015 Jan 28, 4:04pm

Peter P says

Dan8267 says

Sounds more like a cop out. I really believe that the afterlife is bullshit, but I don't want to come right out and say that.

Well, I have fundamental respect for all religions. ;-)

I only respect religions that practice peace. So should you.

Sometimes I just try to be politic...

Of course, I respect some religions a lot more than others. I find Reform Judaism most interesting.

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Strategist 2015 Jan 28, 4:08pm

I only respect religions that practice peace. So should you.

Sometimes I just try to be politic...

Of course, I respect some religions a lot more than others. I find Reform Judaism most interesting.

Oh God, just what we need. Another religion.

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Y 2015 Jan 28, 4:13pm

Not my argument.

No matter what.....her religious beliefs were the prime cause of her wanting to join her father.

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Chupacabra 2015 Jan 28, 6:22pm

I'm a pastafarian.

If I am a good person I will go to heaven.
There is beer and strippers in heaven.

And if I misbehave I'll go to hell.
The beer in hell is stale and the strippers have syphilis.

My holiday is called "holiday", so I'm never offended when people say "happy holidays".

My god is the FSM.
She is real because you can't prove she doesn't exist.

R'amen

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Dan8267 2015 Jan 28, 6:27pm

so what is it called when an atheist argues the lore of a religion that he is projecting onto you, that you have no part of?

If you are going to reference lore, you had better get it right.

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Dan8267 2015 Jan 28, 6:42pm

You finally said something that makes sense.

I always make sense. You just aren't intelligent enough to realize it.

The mistake some of of us have learnt is terrorists like the Iranian regime will use every weapon at their disposal.

We all know that. However, some people haven't learned that the so-called "good guys" on your team are often the greatest threats. Hitler was elected by the people.

They must not be allowed to have nukes. But the moment we start taking them out, Dan will be the first to yell "foul" "It's murder." " We have no right to kill them without a trial." "Who made us policeman of the world" "They are innocent"

When have I ever stated that we should allow Iran to have nukes? When have I ever said "Who made us policeman of the world"?

And how the fuck does killing allege terrorists rather than bringing them to a fair trial allow for Iran or any other state to obtain nuclear weapons? I think it's you who needs to start taking medication.

The evidence shows she knew but chose to ignore that part, unless you have evidence she did not know

Honey, you have no evidence that she chose to ignore part of a myth. The only evidence in that case is the letter she left explaining her actions. It is reasonable to consider the letter to be an accurate account of what she was thinking. And the letter clearly shows she believed she was going to go to heaven if she killed herself. Whether or not that belief adheres to the particular fiction of Christian lore is irrelevant. It still demonstrates that religion is bad because it causes people to make bad, irrational decisions based on false premises.

I only respect religions that practice peace. So should you.

Well, that rules out Christianity in all its forms. What are we left with? I think the only religion that was truly peaceful during its entire history was that episode of Star Trek where a pre-warp society started worshiping Captain Picard, who ironically would be a better god than any that has every been written about in human history.

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Strategist 2015 Jan 28, 6:58pm

Strategist says

You finally said something that makes sense.

I always make sense. You just aren't intelligent enough to realize it.

Oh God, you are making no sense at all. Making sense once is not the same as making sense always. You are using your cop logic - If one cop is bad, all cops are bad.

Strategist says

They must not be allowed to have nukes. But the moment we start taking them out, Dan will be the first to yell "foul" "It's murder." " We have no right to kill them without a trial." "Who made us policeman of the world" "They are innocent"

When have I ever stated that we should allow Iran to have nukes? When have I ever said "Who made us policeman of the world"?

And how the fuck does killing allege terrorists rather than bringing them to a fair trial allow for Iran or any other state to obtain nuclear weapons? I think it's you who needs to start taking medication.

There you go again. The only way to not allow Iran to have nukes is to take them out. How the hell are we gonna take them out without some people, both guilty and innocent dying in the process?

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Strategist 2015 Jan 28, 7:04pm

http://tarunkranti.50webs.com/harris.html

Strategist says

I only respect religions that practice peace. So should you.

Well, that rules out Christianity in all its forms. What are we left with? I think the only religion that was truly peaceful during its entire history was that episode of Star Trek where a pre-warp society started worshiping Captain Picard, who ironically would be a better god than any that has every been written about in human history.

You missed something. Sam Harris mentions "Jainism" a religion of India as truly peaceful.

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Strategist 2015 Jan 28, 7:18pm

Strategist says

You finally said something that makes sense.

I always make sense. You just aren't intelligent enough to realize it.

A high school teacher once told me "You are lazy, useless and will never amount to anything"
The same teacher told my mom "I was one of the smartest students she ever had"
What did your teacher tell you Dan?

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Dan8267 2015 Jan 28, 10:56pm

If one cop is bad, all cops are bad.

I never said anything even remotely resembling that. The fact that you accuse me of saying such a thing shows that you have the reading comprehension of a drunken 3-year-old.

The only way to not allow Iran to have nukes is to take them out.

Are you seriously saying that the only way to prevent the state of Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons is to nuke the entire country killing all of them? Unfortunately, that's not even the stupidest thing I've read on PatNet, or this thread, today. And that's sad.

Sam Harris mentions "Jainism" a religion of India as truly peaceful.

OK, one fucking religion out of ten thousand manages to avoid being completely evil. That's about the batting average of finding good men in the Gestapo.

What did your teacher tell you Dan?

Who cares? Unlike you, I don't need daily affirmations of my self-worth.

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NDrLoR 2015 Jan 29, 8:44am

Sam Harris mentions "Jainism" a religion of India as truly peaceful.

That's because it's so plain.

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Strategist 2015 Jan 29, 10:28am

P N Dr Lo R says

Strategist says

Sam Harris mentions "Jainism" a religion of India as truly peaceful.

That's because it's so plain.

Being peaceful does not require any fancy rituals. All religions should be "plain"

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Y 2015 Jan 29, 10:34am

Buttercup, I am not referencing 'lore'.
I am referencing your reference to 'lore'.
Not the same.

SoftShell says

so what is it called when an atheist argues the lore of a religion that he is projecting onto you, that you have no part of?

If you are going to reference lore, you had better get it right.

so what is it called when an atheist argues the lore of a religion that he is projecting onto you, that you have no part of?

Oh wait, I know....Liberal Logic!

Dan8267 says

Never argue the lore of your religion with an atheist.

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Strategist 2015 Jan 29, 10:39am

SoftShell says

The evidence shows she knew but chose to ignore that part, unless you have evidence she did not know

Honey,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

Buttercup,

I'm getting jealous here. :(

60 socal2 2015 Jan 29, 10:41am

Really? Christianity is "Particularly" more vile, evil dangerous......than Islam or the other world's religions?

The irony apparently fails to register in Dan's small mind that Christian institutions like Notre Dame will allow someone like Sam Harris to come to their campus and openly trash their religion without it's adherents going ape-shit and trying to kill unbelievers.

But Dan has to put the qualifier (particularly Christianity) because he is an unthinking PC Prog or a coward.

Anyway, I'll take the Pepsi challenge and compare the atrocities (and charitable work) of Christians in the last 100+ years to the other man-made religions like Communism any day of the week. Christians (even Muslims) are pikers compared to the killing machine of Communism of the 20th century.

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Dan8267 2015 Jan 29, 10:45am

socal2 says

Really? Christianity is "Particularly" more vile, evil dangerous......than Islam or the other world's religions?

No. Nor was any such statement said or implied by this thread. Again, you need to read carefully and accurately. The title of this thread is Why religion (particularly Christianity) is vile, evil, narcissistic & dangerous not Christianity is more evil than Islam.

The reason this thread has that title is that Sam Harris is talking particularly about Christianity, but what the ideas behind what he says applies to all religion.

You'll find a lot less to complain about if you increase the accuracy of your reading.

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Dan8267 2015 Jan 29, 10:46am

socal2 says

But Dan has to put the qualifier (particularly Christianity) because he is an unthinking PC Prog or a coward.

Of course, since your premise is flawed as shown in the above post, all of your conclusions are invalid. The only question that remains is whether or not you are man enough to admit your mistake, apologize, and retract your statements.

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Dan8267 2015 Jan 29, 10:47am