patrick.net

Strategist says

Sam Harris mentions "Jainism" a religion of India as truly peaceful.

That's because it's so plain.

P N Dr Lo R says

Strategist says

Sam Harris mentions "Jainism" a religion of India as truly peaceful.

That's because it's so plain.

Being peaceful does not require any fancy rituals. All religions should be "plain"

Buttercup, I am not referencing 'lore'.
I am referencing your reference to 'lore'.
Not the same.

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

so what is it called when an atheist argues the lore of a religion that he is projecting onto you, that you have no part of?

If you are going to reference lore, you had better get it right.

SoftShell says

so what is it called when an atheist argues the lore of a religion that he is projecting onto you, that you have no part of?

Oh wait, I know....Liberal Logic!

Dan8267 says

Never argue the lore of your religion with an atheist.

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

The evidence shows she knew but chose to ignore that part, unless you have evidence she did not know

Honey,

SoftShell says

Buttercup,

I'm getting jealous here. :(

Really? Christianity is "Particularly" more vile, evil dangerous......than Islam or the other world's religions?

The irony apparently fails to register in Dan's small mind that Christian institutions like Notre Dame will allow someone like Sam Harris to come to their campus and openly trash their religion without it's adherents going ape-shit and trying to kill unbelievers.

But Dan has to put the qualifier (particularly Christianity) because he is an unthinking PC Prog or a coward.

Anyway, I'll take the Pepsi challenge and compare the atrocities (and charitable work) of Christians in the last 100+ years to the other man-made religions like Communism any day of the week. Christians (even Muslims) are pikers compared to the killing machine of Communism of the 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

socal2 says

Really? Christianity is "Particularly" more vile, evil dangerous......than Islam or the other world's religions?

No. Nor was any such statement said or implied by this thread. Again, you need to read carefully and accurately. The title of this thread is Why religion (particularly Christianity) is vile, evil, narcissistic & dangerous not Christianity is more evil than Islam.

The reason this thread has that title is that Sam Harris is talking particularly about Christianity, but what the ideas behind what he says applies to all religion.

You'll find a lot less to complain about if you increase the accuracy of your reading.

socal2 says

But Dan has to put the qualifier (particularly Christianity) because he is an unthinking PC Prog or a coward.

Of course, since your premise is flawed as shown in the above post, all of your conclusions are invalid. The only question that remains is whether or not you are man enough to admit your mistake, apologize, and retract your statements.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

The evidence shows she knew but chose to ignore that part, unless you have evidence she did not know

Honey,

SoftShell says

Buttercup,

I'm getting jealous here. :(

Don't be. SoftShell is the bottom. And yes, his shell is quite soft from years of pounding.

par·tic·u·lar·ly
pə(r)ˈtikyələrlē/Submit
adverb
1.to a higher degree than is usual or average.
synonyms: especially, specially, very, extremely, exceptionally, singularly, peculiarly, unusually, extraordinarily, remarkably, outstandingly,

socal2 says

par·tic·u·lar·ly

Haven't you learned from the SATs that the meaning of a word in context is not always the first definition listed in the dictionary?

Particularly

3: in particular : specifically

Now if you actually watched the video and paid attention, it would be crystal clear that the video if talking about the particular examples of Christianity being vile and cruel. At no time does the video compare Christianity to other religions or make a quantitative assessment of how bad Christian morality is compared to Islam or any other religion.

If you didn't bother to watch the video, then any misinterpretation of the title is solely your fault. The title's intended meaning is clear and accurate to anyone who actually watched the video. Any misunderstanding is all on you.

The Christianity vs. Islam vs Judaism argument is like
"Well, Stalin killed 30 Bazillion People, so Hitler and Franco's murderous binges don't count."

thunderlips11 says

The Christianity vs. Islam vs Judaism argument is like

"Well, Stalin killed 30 Bazillion People, so Hitler and Franco's murderous binges don't count."

When the numbers are something like 1000 to 1 and you have to go back 4 centuries to document Christianity's worst atrocities compared to Commie or Islam's atrocities a few decades ago.........I think it is germane.

socal2 says

thunderlips11 says

The Christianity vs. Islam vs Judaism argument is like

"Well, Stalin killed 30 Bazillion People, so Hitler and Franco's murderous binges don't count."

When the numbers are something like 1000 to 1 and you have to go back 4 centuries to document Christianity's worst atrocities compared to Commie or Islam's atrocities a few decades ago.........I think it is germane.

So Son of Sam killing people 40 years ago isn't important, because some Son of Sam Junior killed a few more people last year. Got it.

You know why Christianity doesn't kill people like they used to? The Enlightenment, and God is Dead. That's why. The West has gloriously moved past barbarian superstition.

Of course, in Eastern Europe about 60-70 years ago, there were plenty of people who killed for religious reasons. Go look at who donated to Jon Demanjuk's several decades of appeals, hearings, and trials. Way beyond the capacity of a "retired autoworker" to pay by himself. Hint: Mel Gibson's Dad.

Oh, and in Spain too. It wasn't just anti-communism, Franco was leading a "Crusade"

Viva Christo Rey!

Can't we all get along?

The Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are all disgusting outgrowths of the same putrid origin.

Just keep that in your mind, and you can't go wrong.

Peter P says

Can't wait for Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt to come out:

That will be funny, for an episode or two. Then you'll get bored of how she remains so eternally innocent.

Dan is right on. I grew up going to church regularly, sat quietly, but very little of it made any sense to me. God loves you, but murders babies every day. God listens to you, but capriciously decides which prayers do and don't get answered. God is all-powerful, and once chose to part the Red Sea, but he's been taking a nap from those duties for a while...

God is a complete psycho!

thunderlips11 says

So Son of Sam killing people 40 years ago isn't important, because some Son of Sam Junior killed a few more people last year. Got it.

Sure, going back decades is relevant. Comparing numbers from Bronze age man..........not so much.

For the record, all man made organizations (religion, political parties, unions) are capable of violence and greed.

I just don't think atheists can feel so smug when they have the horrible record of Communism to deal with in terms of human rights atrocities.

socal2 says

I just don't think atheists can feel so smug when they have the horrible record of Communism to deal with

Uhh ... there are plenty of atheists who are neither Bolsheviks nor Stalinists.

(Since 99.9% of all humans aren't Stalinists, this really isn't much of a claim.)

HydroCabron says

Uhh ... there are plenty of atheists who are neither Bolsheviks nor Stalinists.

And lots of Christians (and Muslims) who aren't crusaders or jihadis.

thunderlips11 says

The Christianity vs. Islam vs Judaism argument is like

"Well, Stalin killed 30 Bazillion People, so Hitler and Franco's murderous binges don't count."

Exactly. They are all bad and for the same reasons. The only difference is degree, and even that is a function of time.

So unenlightened man conjours up a skydaddie to assuage his fears of mortality, and you call this disgusting and putrid?
Why do you hate evolution?

HydroCabron says

The Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are all disgusting outgrowths of the same putrid origin.

socal2 says

And lots of Christians (and Muslims) who aren't crusaders or jihadis.

There is no atheist handbook which advocates labor camps in the Taiga, mass executions, terror, or centralized government control of the means of production.

The scriptures of all three Abrahamic religions have passages which can be, and have been, interpreted to call for violent action against outsiders.

socal2 says

you have to go back 4 centuries

How long ago it was is irrelevant. What matters is what has changed to reign in Christianity in the modern world. The answer to that is a weakening of the religion, a stripping of its power and influence over the state, and a rebuttal of its truthfulness by vocal atheists. That is why Christianity is less of a threat today than it was during the Middle Ages. It has nothing to do with age.

thunderlips11 says

So Son of Sam killing people 40 years ago isn't important, because some Son of Sam Junior killed a few more people last year. Got it.

Well put.

SoftShell says

Why do you hate evolution?

Evolution is an explanation, not a justification.

The problem with almost all religions is they eventually become more about control then spirituality. The religion becomes at odds with your freedom of self, of thought, of action, etc. It ends up becoming more limiting then freeing.

Also: If you can have your own sense of spirituality (which everyone is capable of having), why do you need a religion?

Indiana Jones says

The problem with almost all religions is they eventually become more about control then spirituality.

Religions have many problems including the one you mentioned. But spirituality, faith, superstition, or whatever you want to call it is in itself bad.

If a person says god is talking to him, we consider him crazy. If a person talks to god, our society considers him "spiritual". A delusion, no matter how socially accepted, is still a delusion. The nature of the madness does not change because it becomes culturally acceptable. If our culture welcomed all nutcases who thought they were Napoléon and that aliens were stealing their thoughts, it would not make those nutcases any less dysfunctional.

There is no such thing as spirituality. At best, you mean emotional when you use that term. At worse, you are talking about falsehoods as if they are truths. And if you make any decision based on those falsehoods, you're decision making is bad. If you choose one career over another because you think that's what your fictitious god wants you to do, then you have made a decision for the wrong reason. The best you can hope for is that you arrived at the correct conclusion despite your mistake. Unfortunately, most of the time that won't be true. Misinformation rarely leads to the best choice.

And that's hardly the only problem with the lie of spirituality. For example, classifying morality as a spiritual matter prevents a rational, scientific discussion of the issue of morality. Spirituality's monopoly on discussing issues of morality has held back the subject matter for thousands of years, and with dire consequences. Many ethical, economic, and environmental issues are essentially morality issues that are unresolved because of the blight of spirituality.

In particular, the monotheistic religions of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have affected events so that we are, to this day, torturing and murdering non-human persons, non-human sentient beings like whales. And why? Because our stupid spiritual beliefs revolve around human beings having souls and other animals not. Well, in reality, the soul doesn't exist. It's just a lame Bronze Age myth. What is real is that a pod of whales split into two groups, adult males and mother/calves, in order to fool humans chasing them and save their families from a slaughter. Although this attempt failed solely because the humans had a helicopter and manage to spot the second group containing the calves, the effort took planning, communication, coordination, and self-sacrifice on the same level as anything man has ever done. But we've never discussed the "humanity" for lack of a better word of whales because of our misguided attempts to frame morality in spiritual terms instead of in natural terms.

Morality comes from evolution and nature, not some fictitious spirit world.

I am not going to try to convince an athiest that there is anything in this world that exists that they can't see with their eyes.

People thinking they are Napoleon has nothing to do with spirituality.

I don't mean emotional. I mean spiritual. Spirituality is not bad. In fact, it is the most amazing thing in this world that one can experience. Note, I am not saying religion here. And I am not saying morality. Those are completely different things.

I look at spirituality in its basic form as a connection with your Self, and through that link is a connection with all else that exists in our universe. So defined this way, we may think more alike than it seems.

Dan8267 says

Religions have many problems including the one you mentioned. But spirituality, faith, superstition, or whatever you want to call it is in itself bad.

sbh says

Strategist says

A high school teacher once told me "You are lazy, useless and will never amount to anything"

The same teacher told my mom "I was one of the smartest students she ever had"

Did you ever find out which one lied to you?

I think it would be my mom. Her little angel was incapable of being bad.

Indiana Jones says

I am not going to try to convince an athiest that there is anything in this world that exists that they can't see with their eyes.

There are plenty of things I know exist that I cannot see with my eyes.
1. Atoms
2. Protons
3. Neutrons
4. Electrons
5. Quarks
6. About several dozen other particles
7. Black holes
8. X-rays
9. Gamma rays
10. Time dilation
11. Frame dragging
12. Prime numbers

Just to name a few.

Where you and I disagree is that I don't believe in things without reason. And I apply that principle without bigotry to all things whereas you are very selective about which gods you take seriously and which ones you consider a joke, and that is a form of bigotry.

Indiana Jones says

People thinking they are Napoleon has nothing to do with spirituality.

A psychologist is talking with a patient in a mental hospital. The patient says that he is Napoleon. The doctor asks, "How do you know you are Napoleon?". The patient says, "God told me.". The patient's roommate retorts, "I said no such thing.".

Someone claiming to be the reincarnation of Napoleon's soul has as much credibility as any other person making a "spiritual" claim.

Indiana Jones says

I don't mean emotional. I mean spiritual.

Define the difference. Most people's "spiritual experiences" are simply emotional ones that exist only inside the circuitry of their brains. Nothing supernatural about that no matter how moving the emotions are.

Indiana Jones says

I look at spirituality in its basic form as a connection with your Self, and through that link is a connection with all else that exists in our universe.

That is a meaningless description. One can simply say that "a connection with your 'self'" is a psychological thing as it exists entirely within the natural functioning of your brain. It would be hard to find a connection with yourself if your brain is dead. Every thought, every feeling, every artsy-fartsy connection you have with the universe or yourself exists entirely in your brain.

Strategist says

A high school teacher once told me "You are lazy, useless and will never amount to anything"

The same teacher told my mom "I was one of the smartest students she ever had"

You do realize those statements you keep repeating aren't mutually exclusive, right?

You could be the smartest student she ever had and still be a lazy, useless moron who never amounted to anything. It doesn't paint a pretty picture of her other students, but it's not a logical contradiction.

And smartest of a group does not imply smart.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

A high school teacher once told me "You are lazy, useless and will never amount to anything"

The same teacher told my mom "I was one of the smartest students she ever had"

You do realize those statements you keep repeating aren't mutually exclusive, right?

You could be the smartest student she ever had and still be a lazy, useless moron who never amounted to anything. It doesn't paint a pretty picture of her other students, but it's not a logical contradiction.

And smartest of a group does not imply smart.

Well, that teacher was just so boring. "If music be the food of love, pray, play on" That sentence she kept repeating would still put me to sleep. Who cared for Shakespeare? I was more interested in lust like a normal teenager, not love.

If the soul doesn't exist, would you consent to be killed if you'd be immediately replaced with a genetically identical copy with your memories?
Would you say, "Go ahead and pull that trigger, I'll be back!"
Would the copy be you?
If a human being is only the sum of their physicality and memories, murder should be legal when scientists perfect a way to copy memories into a clone.

Overcompensating for his statements on Bill Maher?

"Liberals have really failed on the topic of theocracy...the...they'll criticize white theocracy, they'll criticize Christians. They'll still get agitated over the abortion clinic bombing that happened in 1984, but when you want to talk about the treatment of women, homosexuals, free thinkers, public intellectuals in the Muslim world, I would argue liberals have failed us...Islam is the motherload of bad ideas"

Sam Harris

lakermania says

Overcompensating for his statements on Bill Maher?

"Liberals have really failed on the topic of theocracy...the...they'll criticize white theocracy, they'll criticize Christians. They'll still get agitated over the abortion clinic bombing that happened in 1984, but when you want to talk about the treatment of women, homosexuals, free thinkers, public intellectuals in the Muslim world, I would argue liberals have failed us...Islam is the motherload of bad ideas"

Sam Harris

It's pretty safe to take a swing at a religion whose major tenet is "turn the other cheek."
Not so safe to criticize one that will send five camel jockeys to your office to kill you and all your coworkers.
Guess which route American atheists take?
Pussies...

Quigley says

It's pretty safe to take a swing at a religion whose major tenet is "turn the other cheek."

Not so safe to criticize one that will send five camel jockeys to your office to kill you and all your coworkers.

Guess which route American atheists take?

Pussies...

But.....but......but Dan says Christianity is "Particularly" vile, evil and dangerous.

Also reminds me of all those smugly libs driving around with their COEXIST bumper stickers. So brave!

Exactly which religious group or culture is refusing to coexist with the others around the planet today?

Quigley says

If the soul doesn't exist, would you consent to be killed if you'd be immediately replaced with a genetically identical copy with your memories?

It's a good question but I don't believe the conclusion follows. For example, suppose an arsonist set fire to your house. destroying your wife's wedding dress, which she might have been saving for a daughter's wedding. Insurance could write you a check for the cost of a new dress, you might even buy an identical dress to the one you remember and it would match the photos, but it would not be the same dress. That doesn't mean the dress has a soul, or that the arsonist should avoid prosecution. It means only that we get attached to things, including ourselves.

A news report today reminded me of this thread and why I disagree with the OP singling out Christianity. In any country that has a Christian majority, at least in living memory, we can have a thread like this and nobody worries for their safety. That would not be true in even some "allied" countries with Muslim majorities, for example Egypt. Many Muslim countries remind me of North Korea: the people are so terrified of their government and official prophet that they kill their own children, literally practicing child sacrifice. The desperate protests over a cartoon remind me of North Koreans who actually cried and became frantic when they saw a display in South Korea that might be considered unpatriotic, and who go bonkers in their desperately effusive praise of their dear leader / great leader / fat leader whatever. You can say that hundreds of years ago, before the reformation and enlightenment, some Christian countries were despicably intolerant, and you can even say that some people today pine for that era, but today there is only one major religion that still practices that level of intolerance. From Pakistan to Boko Haram to ISIL, the pattern recurs, and much of it (as Joe Biden pointed out) results from our "allies" in Saudi Arabia. To say that Christianity was equally bad hundreds of years ago means only that Islam might continue on the same path for probably the rest of our lifetimes and those of everyone we know.

Quigley says

lakermania says

Overcompensating for his statements on Bill Maher?

"Liberals have really failed on the topic of theocracy...the...they'll criticize white theocracy, they'll criticize Christians. They'll still get agitated over the abortion clinic bombing that happened in 1984, but when you want to talk about the treatment of women, homosexuals, free thinkers, public intellectuals in the Muslim world, I would argue liberals have failed us...Islam is the motherload of bad ideas"

Sam Harris

It's pretty safe to take a swing at a religion whose major tenet is "turn the other cheek."

Not so safe to criticize one that will send five camel jockeys to your office to kill you and all your coworkers.

Guess which route American atheists take?

Pussies...

Hardly. Larry Krauss, Hitchens, Dawkins, etc. have all taken on Islamic Scholars in debates. Harris, Hitch and Dawkins in particular (were) are anti-Islam, and never shut up about it.

Hitch in particular loathed Islam above all - here's just one bit. He attacked any leftist who defended Islamic violence.

http://www.9F8vgwBiKl0

Edit: See that Lakermania already brought up Harris.

Quigley says

If the soul doesn't exist, would you consent to be killed if you'd be immediately replaced with a genetically identical copy with your memories?

Would you say, "Go ahead and pull that trigger, I'll be back!"

Would the copy be you?

The soul does not exist, and I would not consent.

Quigley says

If a human being is only the sum of their physicality and memories, murder should be legal when scientists perfect a way to copy memories into a clone.

No it should not be legal. As all Christians go to heaven, should it be legal to murder them, because they continue to live in heaven?
These are just desperate attempts by the Church to fight back against it's greatest enemy - Science.

lakermania says

Overcompensating for his statements on Bill Maher?

Sam Harris has been consistent and accurate in his assessment of religions. He has given convincing and rational reasons for his judgements backed up by indisputable logic and historical fact. Sam Harris never said that Islam was the only terrible religion, nor does he make a false equalization between modern Christianity and modern Islam in the Middle East. Nor did Sam Harris ever say that Western Muslims were mostly terrorists.