patrick.net

Here's my prediction .. unlike the missing colony of Roanoke Island N.C., whose members basically integrated with the native Americans, thus disappearing from the British watch, I expect that this entire crew will be dead within a couple of months. And no one will come searching for them.

Will it be a Chinese or a Russian man on Yinghuo-15?

She and her kid can be among the first to die quickly on Mars, too.

Rin says

Lieu will spend nearly a decade learning a wide array of new skills including medicine, agriculture, plumbing and electronics if she makes it to Mars.

Maybe she could start by learning about basic planet physics and biology: gravity 1/3 of earth, temperature 60 degrees belows, lack of magnetosphere and ozone layer that are protecting the earth from solar wind and ultraviolet radiation.

All of which have pretty bad effects on terrestrial life forms.

http://www.wired.com/2014/02/happens-body-mars/

Heraclitusstudent says

Maybe she could start by learning about basic planet physics and biology: gravity 1/3 of earth, temperature 60 degrees belows, lack of magnetosphere and ozone layer that are protecting the earth from solar wind and ultraviolet radiation.

All of which have pretty bad effects on terrestrial life forms.

http://www.wired.com/2014/02/happens-body-mars/

That's why I'm giving that crew roughly 2 months to live.

I'm also tired of nitwits, who make comparisons between a Mars colony and that of Roanoke, Jamestown, or Plymouth. There's radiation shielding, oxygen, potable water, fish/game, trees, and plants, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Sure, you many accidentally ingest some Poison Ivy instead of a Maple leaf, while chowing on some squirrels, but hey, those items do exist in North America.

Heraclitusstudent says

Maybe she could start by learning about basic planet physics and biology: gravity 1/3 of earth, temperature 60 degrees belows, lack of magnetosphere and ozone layer that are protecting the earth from solar wind and ultraviolet radiation.

All of which have pretty bad effects on terrestrial life forms.

This one is worth a separate thread.

Where to begin? So many issues still unresearched/unsolved, each with a potential to kill people.

- No radiation protection: dwellings would have to be in caves, or well dug in ($$$). Time on the surface will be strictly limited - don't count on spending your days frolicking around the landscape, as you will probably reach the maximum permissible level of a Fukushima clean-up worker within 2 months on the surface (ignoring radiation exposure during your trip to Mars).
- Pressurized habitats: surface pressure on Mars would qualify as a vacuum in a laboratory on Earth. This will limit the size of your indoor space, since, as we learned from the Space Station, pressurized dwellings are expensive to build, and they leak. I think 6 PSI is sufficient, assuming a richer oxygen mixture (I think).
- Perchlorate in the soil: this is toxic. Airlocks will have to be cleaned fastidiously. Probably not a huge issue, but we have never maintained airlocks on dirt for any length of time
- Temperatures: generally very cold. Not quite as big an issue in a vacuum as in a thick atmosphere, due to slower conduction, but if your heaters die, you die
- Pressure suits: I don't believe that NASA has designed a dual-bladder suit ever, and they seem to have a life of a few dozen hours in a soil environment. This can be improved upon, but there's still work to be done
- Mars gravity is about 1/3 G. Due to bone loss and vision deterioration, some researchers believe that a human subjected to two years of zero G will come back dead. We don't know about 1/3 G: maybe it's enough for decades, maybe not. A centrifuge is a solution - people can probably acclimate 14 rpm, which would generate 1 g at a 15-foot radius. The problem: absolutely no research has been done here. How much time in the centrifuge would you need? Can people handle getting on and off a centrifuge once a day or once a week or however often is necessary without extreme nausea? (The problem seems to be the change from one to the other, and not the fact of living in a spinning room.) And how do we get all this equipment to Mars?

I haven't even touched on food.

By the way: People are too quick to assume that we need to go somewhere with a dirt surface to stand on, due to our Earth home. But Venus is way, way easier to live on than Mars, if you are willing to live in floating habitats. Your house, if sealed, would float at around 52km on Venus, and you'd have total radiation protection and 0.9 g of gravity. It's also easier to get food and water, and habitats would not need to be pressurized, since breathable nitrogen and oxygen is a lifting gas on Venus - thus any leaks could be plugged leisurely, since gases would only escape at the rate of diffusion.

HydroCabron says

But Venus is way, way easier to live on than Mars, if you are willing to live in floating habitats.

That is if you don't mind temperatures that can melt led, giant electric storms, hurricane-force winds and sulfuric acid rains.

HydroCabron says

I haven't even touched on food.

You would have to grow food out of your own shit and urine, in a very tight circle. Yummy.

Heraclitusstudent says

That is if you don't mind temperatures that can melt led, giant electric storms, hurricane-force winds and sulfuric acid rains.

At 50-55km, the temperatures are between 0C and 75C. There's a band at around 52km where the temperature remains strictly between 0C and 50C (32F and 122F).

High winds are not a problem, AFAIK - 250kph, but all in the same direction, so you circle the planet every 4 Earth days. It's not the absolute speed, but the gust that matter - I have no idea how violent the winds are in terms of gusts, but NASA planners seem unconcerned. These speeds are comparable to wind speeds on Earth in which balloons and airplanes fly.

The sulfuric acid (basically battery acid, but only at vapor density of a few ppm) is the source of water and hydrogen, and can be shielded against. I have read in several sources that you could go outdoors with a breathing apparatus and no pressure suit - just a full-body suit.

Solar energy would be incredibly abundant during the sunlit side of the voyage, coming from both above and below. The shit-ton of carbon in the atmosphere, plus 3% nitrogen, means you could grow pretty much anything once you extract water from the sulfuric acid.

What's weird is that you don't even need hydrogen and helium for lift, but they'd still be about 80% more effective for lifting than on Earth. A network of hydrogen balloons floating above any station would be completely safe, because there's no oxygen in Venus' atmosphere to enable an explosion. But you can use balloons of Earth-atmosphere gas anyway, since it's also buoyant in Venus' mesosphere.

The weird thing about the Venusian atmosphere is that it's hard to picture for us, because it's basically an ocean of evaporated dry ice. The human mind does not comprehend the concept of gases so dense you can float in them, but 96% CO2 is extremely dense.

Heraclitusstudent says

HydroCabron says

I haven't even touched on food.

You would have to grow food out of your own shit and urine, in a very tight circle. Yummy.

I have not seen any round trip Mars expedition discussion which does not touch on the topic of eating reconstituted processed shit.

On the plus side, dried shit is apparently a good low-density radiation shield, and could be used to line the walls of the craft on the return journey.

Heraclitusstudent says

giant electric storms

I have never seen a serious discussion of this issue. I assume they don't think it's a threat, but Venus has a lot of electrical storms.

As for the violence of the buffeting: rides in Zeppelins were so smooth that you could not sense movement, but that's at low Earth altitude. Does this translate to Venus' upper troposphere?

HydroCabron says

dried shit is apparently a good low-density radiation shield, and could be used to line the walls of the craft on the return journey.

This is the kinda creative thinking that I like.

How hard would it be to pre-position tons of freeze dried food?

I think Saturn V had a ~26 metric ton payload to Mars (flyby).

We should be talking about resurrecting the NERVA program.

Rin says

Woman wants to be the first, to give birth on Mars

Wow. A real Martian. That kid will be an instant celebrity.

Strategist says

Rin says

Woman wants to be the first, to give birth on Mars

Wow. A real Martian. That kid will be an instant celebrity.

Without a Martian consulate, to put up the papers, he'll be an illegal alien, much like the rest of the crew.

Realize, a baby born in Japan to let's say American or Korean national parents, aren't given Japanese citizenship.

Rin says

Strategist says

Rin says

Woman wants to be the first, to give birth on Mars

Wow. A real Martian. That kid will be an instant celebrity.

Without a Martian consulate, to put up the papers, he'll be an illegal alien, much like the rest of the crew.

Realize, a baby born in Japan to let's say American or Korean national parents, aren't given Japanese citizenship.

Do you know how much it will cost us to deport him to Mars? And what if he sneaks back in?

WTF is going on with NASA and ESA and JAXA and CNSA that they won't tether two payloads together and spin them about their center of mass? Is zero G so glamorous that we can't experiment with living in artificial gravity?

It's one of the biggest holes in space research, yet here come the Chinese with (yawn) another LEO space station. It's like fucking NASCAR in space: millions of miles of turning left, day in and day out. Zzzzzz ...

I admire her spunk, or seeking of same.

Mars is a tough cookie. It's unfortunate we don't have a more earthlike planet next door. Water and basic resources will be much harder to get. As long as they preposition a generously-sized power plant though and at least a years worth of supplies I think it's worth a shot.

I just hope she names the kid Valentine Smith.

Do Martians give birthright citizenship??

Strategist says

Do you know how much it will cost us to deport him to Mars?

Then by the Executive Order of the UN Security council, he's declared a citizen of the Earth!

Then, his mother can petition the British consulate to get him a UK passport.

lostand confused says

Do Martians give birthright citizenship??

No, there's no consulate there. The planet's been vacated for the past billion years. The 'John Carter' movie was BS.

Rin says

lostand confused says

Do Martians give birthright citizenship??

No, there's no consulate there. The planet's been vacated for the past billion years. The 'John Carter' movie was BS.

But the Jack Nicholson movie, "Mars Attacks." was true-was it not??

lostand confused says

But the Jack Nicholson movie, "Mars Attacks." was true-was it not??

This remains me of an old saying ... 'What does a roll of toilet paper and the Starship Enterprise have in common?'

'They both fight Klingons around Uranus.'

HydroCabron says

At 50-55km, the temperatures are between 0C and 75C. There's a band at around 52km where the temperature remains strictly between 0C and 50C (32F and 122F).

I think it's easier to colonize space independently of these nasty planets.
You can control the environment perfectly.
You can create gravity though appropriate rotation.
No need to escape a planet's gravity to come back.
And if you have to recycle human waste anyway, you might as well do that in space.

Plus you can go anywhere you want without being bothered by the neighbors.

Heraclitusstudent says

Plus you can go anywhere you want without being bothered by the neighbors.

And it's affordable.

http://www.buymars.com/mars-land

Heraclitusstudent says

I think it's easier to colonize space independently of these nasty planets.

There are a lot of university/government and armchair space planners who have come to the same conclusion.

I think classical science fiction and Hollywood have done us a real disservice by glamorizing Mars. We want another planet like Earth, and Mars isn't it. Even Elon Musk, proud as he is of being a maverick, says he wants to die on Mars - since getting there is far easier than living there, he might well get his wish sooner than intended.

It seems like the human vestibular system can adjust to spinning habitats, and 2 rpm is doable for nearly anybody. If slow rates are desired, just make the diameter of the habitat larger.

(It could be that nearly anybody can handle 10 rpm - the main problem seems to be going from not spinning to spinning, and back, just as astronauts have problems going from Earth to microgravity, and microgravity to Earth, but not when living in one or the other.)

That leaves radiation shielding as the only problem without a clear solution, as yet.

I hope we get out of low Earth orbit soon. There's a limit to what we can learn there.

Call it Crazy says

Strategist says

Heraclitusstudent says

Plus you can go anywhere you want without being bothered by the neighbors.

And it's affordable.

http://www.buymars.com/mars-land

Ahhh, but can you get a 3.5% down, no doc, FHA loan to purchase?

Martians aren't that stupid. It's all cash or kiss my Martian ass.

Here's the Mar's One article:

http://news.yahoo.com/private-mars-one-colony-project-cuts-applicant-pool-195320913.html

Basically, a bunch of ppl are competing so that they can be the first dead ppl on a distant planet. What a goal in life?

Last I'd checked, ppl on this earth competed to become rich and famous, so that they could spend their years on a beach in Tahiti.

Do the grocery stores take WIC in Space?

Martian-human hybrid.

Sorry folks, until we have something equivalent to a warp drive, even if it's 50% light speed, I wouldn't take a trip outside of earth's low orbital atmosphere.

The only place worth visiting in our solar system are the rings of Saturn. Now those are some of the great wonders of space.

The fact that a bunch of retards want to hang out on a dead red planet, makes no sense to me. Why not just move to the Mohave desert and dehydrate oneself for kicks?! It's basically the same view, though there's still O2 out in the CA deserts.

Rin says

The fact that a bunch of retards want to hang out on a dead red planet, makes no sense to me. Why not just move to the Mohave desert and dehydrate oneself for kicks?! It's basically the same view, though there's still O2 out in the CA deserts.

I like the contention that we should first colonize the Sahara, the Atacama, Antarctica, the sea floor, or even Fresno before trying Mars.

We have no knowledge of what happens to the human body in .38G over even a few weeks.

Mars:

Landing: Difficult
Takeoff: Difficult
Gravity: .38G - effects undetermined; long journey at 0G
Cosmic radiation: Plenty
Habitats: Pressurized, shielded, and insulated
Resources: Water, perchlorates; import everything else
Mobility: Low to none
View: Monotonous

Lunar poles:

Landing: Easy
Takeoff: Easy
Gravity: .16G - effects unknown
Cosmic radiation: Plenty
Habitats: Pressurized, shielded, insulated
Resources: Water; low-cost transport of everything else from Earth
Mobility: Low to none; better than Mars
View: Monotonous

Venus, 52km altitude:

Landing: Easy, similar to Earth aerobraking
Takeoff: Hard
Gravity: .9G - effects likely minimal
Cosmic radiation: None
Habitats: Unpressurized, unshielded, and sealed only to prevent diffusion; many current materials will resist sulfuric acid; temperatures milder than most of Earth; spacious quarters can be supported easily in the CO2 atmosphere
Resources: Plentiful; water, carbon dioxide, nitrogen; grow trees, plants; omnidirectional solar energy 2x that on Earth
Mobility: Excellent; go outside in light unpressurized suit w/ breather; circle the planet every 100 hours
View: Possibly spectacular, probably not monotonous; depends on cloud deck composition

Europa or Callisto:

Landing: Easy
Takeoff: Easy
Gravity: At least your toothbrush and feces will stay where you put them; similar to Moon - if .15G is sufficient to avoid the effects of weightlessness, these are enticing environments, because there are no dust storms and winds as on Mars
Cosmic radiation: Yes; Europa worse than Callisto, due to Jupiter's radiation belts
Habitats: Shielded, pressurized, heated
Resources: Water plentiful
Mobility: Low
View: Spectacular, but maybe monotonous

If we ever colonize nearby planets, Venus will have far more inhabitants than Mars, thanks to far more abundant solar energy and liquids, and the ability to build extremely spacious habitats (thousands of square miles) cheaply.

We should be building rotating habitats in low-Earth orbit, and then at Earth-Moon or Sun-Earth Lagrange points, and experimenting with light superconductive materials for radiation shielding. Then we can figure out what rotation rate humans can live in, how much G prevents bone loss, muscle loss, and vision impairment. It could be that Mars 0.38G is enough.

There is enough water and metals in the asteroid belt to support 1 trillion humans in rotating habitats. Far more if we include Kuiper belt objects and probable asteroids in Uranus's L4 and L5 points.

Google "floating turd Apollo 10" for a moving tale of 0G: (Cernan: "Here's another goddam turd. What's the matter with you guys?").

HydroCabron says

Google "floating turd Apollo 10" for a moving tale of 0G: (Cernan: "Here's another goddam turd. What's the matter with you guys?").

Any tales of low gravity boinking?

Heraclitusstudent says

Any tales of low gravity boinking?

At least one husband-wife team has been on ISS. The astronauts operate on a "what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas" code, so no word.

As for homo on Apollo, Skylab, Mir or ISS: not a word.

I think it's supposed to require straps or pushing against opposite walls by both partners, because thrusting tends to push the bodies apart.

They just need to train female astronauts to scoop up floating blobs of fluid with their vaginas while rotating in zero G. That way, the male astros can just wank and release.

"Hey, flo, go vacuum up that floating sperm with your vagina. And while you're at it, get me a tube of coffee!"

Of course, this might give rise to feminist resentments. They might decide they hate men, and because they can't shave, they could take out their resentments by eating mounds of packaged chocolate and ice cream, thus becoming the first IMMENSE HIRSUTE LESBIANS IN SPACE!

Ha, gotcha!

I've thought about this. Imagine the ease of woman on top? You could pull her up and down with perfect ease. And no gravity working against your ... ahem, manly parts.

Quigley says

Imagine the ease of woman on top?

Define "on top".

if she had any marital skills, she would be saying her baby would be the first human born on Mars, instead of making this about her being the first mother.